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Messages - SuJuroit

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31
Introduce Yourself / Re: I have grasped the Absolute
« on: September 14, 2017, 04:50:37 pm »
If forced to describe TSA in a nutshell, I usually go with, "Sociopathic kung fu Jesus unites humanity to battle interstellar rape aliens, played completely seriously."

I haven't had much luck attracting new readers, but I'm not giving up!

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Inchoroi
« on: September 11, 2017, 03:38:08 pm »
I like the revelations we're given of the Inchoroi, how they demonstrate the monstrousness of their creators, the Progenitors, who not only made a weapon race that would perpetuate genocide on an interstellar scale, but took the trouble to GIVE THEM SOULS so they could experience and fear Damnation, and use that terror as a goad to engage in more better genociding.  Holy shit.

As characters they perhaps wound up lacking, but on a thematic level they deliver in spades.

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Arnold Schwarzenegger had narrow hips too, and Cnaiur is described as having that bodybuilder-esque triangle shape.  Tommy Hearns didn't have particularly broad shoulders for his size, he was kind of a narrow guy all around, and he certainly didn't have what I'd call a "bull-like chest". 

But I agree it's possible Kellhus weighs more than Cnaiur, especially if you factor in his super dense Dunyain bones (because naturally the Dunyain have more awesome bones than normal people).  We're repeatedly told that Kellhus is really tall, taller than almost all other characters except for guys like Yalgrota, so let's say he's 6'6, 250lbs?  Which would make Cnaiur 6'4, with a mighty frame, "strapped with muscle".  Maybe he's 220, 230lbs?  Those sizes work for my mental images of the characters.

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I think Kellhus is taller than Cnaiur (who is himself described as pretty tall), but we don't see Kellhus described as especially muscular or strongly built, whereas we get countless descriptions of Cnaiur's incredibly broad shoulders, his bull-like chest, his heavily muscled arms, his "neckbreaking strength", etc.  You've got to figure a guy described like that (who is also described as tall) would have to weigh at the very least 200lbs, probably significantly more.  Considering a man of average strength might be able to hold 30-40lbs at arms length, shoulder height without dropping it or losing his balance, and a man of great strength might be able to handle twice that, but what Kellhus did was downright superhuman.

And I'm OK with that.  Like I said before, it's all part of establishing Kellhus as badass and explicitly superhuman.  He's quick and coordinated enough to snatch arrows from the air.  He's skilled enough to beat up his world's version of Conan the Barbarian.  He's strong enough to dangle said barbarian over a cliff with one hand.  He's persuasive enough to talk almost anybody into anything.  And it all works well within the context of the story.

35
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So in addition to intellect and motor reflexes, do the Dûnyain breed for insane finger strength? In TWP Kel survives an assassination attempt by reaching behind himself and catching the oncoming blade between his fingers.

The Dunyain are basically wuxia heroes.  They're as strong as they need to be in order to be awesome and badass.  Remember the scene where Kellhus dangled Cnaiur, a hulking mountain of muscle, over a cliff by his neck?  With one hand?  Yeah. 

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Also, the first time he encounters a skin spy he reasons it's face is made of cartilage, "like a shark". How would he know what a shark is?

This one doesn't bug me too much. The Dunyain do have books and knowledge of mundane things, plus there's no telling what Kellhus picked up after he was "captured" by the Conriyans.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Psalm of Imimorûl
« on: September 01, 2017, 05:29:20 pm »
I interpreted hair as a metaphor for trees/plant life.

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Remember that the gods exist outside of time.  Kellhus' first encounter with Ajokli was not necessarily Ajokli's first interaction with Kellhus.  Ajokli has always been connected to Kellhus, in the same way that Kelmomas was always the No-God.

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But don't the Mutilated show that Kellhus was at least partially right, in thinking that any Dûnyain would join the Consult?

I think that what you are saying, overall, is somewhat true though.  Had Kellhus been more logical toward the end, things were preventable.  However, had he been so hyper-logical, the situation would never have arose.  The Shortest Path really is through the No-God.  The Mutilated realize this.  Kellhus realizes this too, but finds it an unacceptable solution, probably for the reasons you state.

My take is that Kellhus' decision was the result of Ajokli's influence.  As you say, for the Dunyain the Consult are right and the No-God represents the Shortest Path.  But Kellhus states that he's "more" than Dunyain.  What makes him more?  His connection to Ajokli.  And of course, Ajokli is very keen on stopping Resumption...


39
The Unholy Consult / Re: We Are Proyas
« on: August 30, 2017, 06:14:25 pm »
Yeah, in many ways I see TSA as the polar opposite of "standard fantasy epic".  Your generic standard fantasy epic typically involves a heroic character who rises from humble origins to discover he has a great destiny.  He meets true companions, finds a wise mentor, and "levels up".  He suffers losses and setbacks, but ultimately overcomes them and defeats the Big Bad.

In TSA we have a sociopath who descends from exalted origins (we're constantly told how superior the Dunyain consider themselves to the Worldborn) and his original purpose was to kill his father.  He uses and manipulates everybody he meets, making the world and everyone in it his tool.  He betrays his "mentor" and takes from him everything of value.  He does gain the power of the Gnosis, but his kung fu and manipulation skills were maxxed out when he left Ishual.  He conquers the known world with little difficulty.  And when he finally has his showdown with the Big Bad (who may not actually be worse than he is), he loses and dies. 

40
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From the conversation between Kellhus and the Mutilated, it seems the Gods can see him just fine. They just can't see where he stands. I agree that this is the weakest part of my theory, though.

The Mutilated explicitly state that Ajokli HIDES from the gods in the Golden Room.  I'm fairly convinced that while the gods obviously saw and were aware of Kellhus up to him entering Golgotterath, he was utterly invisible to them once he entered it.  That's why Ajokli had to ride along inside a Decapitant.

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But here's something to think about. The Consult are not content to just sit in Golgotterath until they die. Which implies that merely being there doesn't completely hide you from the Gods, at least after you've died. So I'm pretty sure Yatwer knows that Kellhus dies in there, even if she can't see the events that immediately surround it.

The concealment offered by Golgotterath seems to be purely in the Inward.  Once you die your soul goes to the Outside, so even the immortal members of the Consult would still be motivated to fire up the No-God.  Wait around long enough and eventually somebody might show up who's powerful enough to kill you, and then off you to go the Pit.  Yatwer would know Kellhus died if his soul turned up in the Pit, but that seems unlikely unless she snaffled it up and is capable of hiding that from Ajokli.  That's plausible, Yatwer IS powerful, but why would she hide the fact she held Kellhus' soul from Ajokli? 

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To Yatwer, the only visible souls/agencies involved with Kellhus' death are Sorweel and Esmenet. They both intended death to Kellhus, and Kellhus died in proximity to them, and with no other souls/agencies around that Yatwer could perceive. Hence she intuits (because she cannot reason) that they killed him. She sees the outcome and the intentions, and fills in the missing details of the causal chain in an intuitive and rather dim manner.

I don't see any contradiction between your argument and Yatwer seeing a Skin-Spy killing Kellhus, assuming of course she could see what happened in the Golden Room at all.  To Yatwer, the actions of the Skin Spy Employee of the Month were the culmination of a causal chain that all happened in accordance with her plan.  Sorweel died to place Kelmomas in a position to ultimately be in the Golden Room.  Esmenet actions served a similar function.

41
I like the theory in the original post; when reality is rewritten so too are the gods rewritten, which means that when Kellhus dies, he's always died, in that spot and in that way, from the perspective of The Hundred, and all the acts leading up to it were also preordained to them.  Plus it meshes with RSB's statement that salvation (at least from The Hundred) only requires that the God/Goddess in question likes you. 

Couple quibbles though.  First, can The Hundred see Kellhus' death, there in the Golden Room?  Aren't they blind to Golgotterath and everything inside it?  Does Yatwer even know he's dead?  Also, I'm pretty sure merely being soulless doesn't render one invisible in the sight of The Hundred.  Animals are soulless and they don't appear to be invisible to the gods.  I think the gods can see sranc, skin spies, etc. just fine.  They just can't see the No-God or Golgotterath, or anything inside it, so from their perspective things like sranc are merely the work of men.  Not much different from the way the Scarlet Spires were utterly convinced skin spies were artifacts of the Psukhe.

42
The Unholy Consult / Re: The thing we're all missing
« on: August 22, 2017, 05:39:17 pm »
I'm on board with Ark still having some degree of capacity, but I think another factor could be the Inverse Fire.  It appears to have the ability to sooth Erratics and bring them back to some semblance of sanity and lucidity, at least temporarily.  Mek essentially says as much in his scene with Kellhus.  So perhaps the Consult simply exposes their Erratics to the Inverse Fire when they need some extra brainpower or flunkies who can function at a higher level than Sranc or Skinspies.

43
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Loose Ends
« on: August 18, 2017, 09:06:43 pm »
As an aside, perhaps it is simply that sorcery leaves a Mark only when the sorcerer uses language. I believe Gnostic and Anagogic schools both use dead languages for the Uterals - that's a pretty strong link to a lot of  dead and dawned souls really.

My take was that the Mark is a result of imperfection. When recalling the God through meaning and language, the wielder's recollection is imperfect and therefore can be distinguished from the work of the God.

The Psukhe, in the other hand, is the result of the wielder *feeling* as the God, and these emotions are the thing itself, not representations of the thing. Therefore not imperfect. Therefore no Mark.

I have a difficult time reconciling this with how chorae interact with the Psukhe (and the Cishaurim) though.  Chorae protect against the Psukhe and kill Cishaurim, so despite the lack of a Mark, the Psukhe (and those who wield it) are distinguished from the God's own creation against which chorae are inert.  A perfect recollection of the work of the God would be, well, perfect and presumably identical to the work of the God, and thus unaffected by chorae.  An imperfect recollection would, presumably, leave a Mark (heh).  Perhaps it's a case where the Psuke just leaves a tiny Mark that's imperceptible to men, in the way that a forgery made by a master could fool any but the most discerning eye (the chorae)?

44
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Conditioned ground
« on: August 10, 2017, 06:30:15 pm »
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I feel like Damnation is much more fluid than it is made out to be.  I think that Nonman just got lucky about when he died.  He'd normally have been Damned, but a few dozen Ciphrang were busy being trapped in the Inside, Ajokli was in Kellhus, a Topos short circuited the escape route, Resumption was near...take your pick.  I don't think it was a typical outcome, is what I'm trying to say.

As if Earwa and the metaphysics of souls isn't brutal enough, now there's an RNG element in the mix!  You happen to die when a couple of Ciphrang are having their coffee break or dropping the Outside equivalent of a deuce and your soul can make a break for Oblivion.  15 minutes earlier or later and it's an ETERNITY of torment.  Harsh, but strangely appropriate for the setting!

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Conditioned ground
« on: August 10, 2017, 03:06:06 pm »
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•The Psûkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users

Do we know this to be true?  We know it leaves no Mark, but is there any evidence its practitioners aren't damned beyond that?  Chorae not only protect against the Psukhe, but kill its practitioners.

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•Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).

Sranc are merely soulless; animate dolls made of meat.  They don't so much find Oblivion as they ARE Oblivion.

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•The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?

This is interesting.  If true, perhaps the Dolour is the ultimate savior of the Non-Men, the best thing that could ever happen to them.  But it raises questions about the Inverse Fire, which apparently is the tool the Consult used to recruit erratic Non-Men in the first place; they seem to see themselves in the Pit, which both helps restore them to lucidity and causes them to believe that finding Oblivion is a fool's errand.  Could the Inverse Fire be wrong sometimes?  Could one see oneself as damned but still find Oblivion?  Why would an erratic Non-Man join the Consult if the Inverse Fire showed him finding Oblivion, or otherwise not suffering damnation?  Does it lie and show everybody in the Pit?  That would seem appropriate to its status as The Goad, but Kellhus claimed it burned true and saw himself descending as Hunger, so who knows.

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