Post it here.
Can't seem to get img tags working so here's a link.
http://juandahlmann.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/serbian-cover-art-for-two-of-scott-bakkers-prince-of-nothing-books/ (http://juandahlmann.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/serbian-cover-art-for-two-of-scott-bakkers-prince-of-nothing-books/)
I quite like them! Shame the commenters don't. But it's interesting to see what are interelated ideas not only take an actual form in someone elses mind but actually depict it in physical form. Seeing how it comes to life/how the in between details come to life is interesting! :)
And I find the big, bleeding, scary eye to be scary!
I thought Achamian was black or Arabian or something. As is Esmenet lol. (Second cover must be Achamian engaging the Imperial Saik at Shimeh).
This is the sort of shit Bakker needs a website for. :)
Quote from: MadnessI thought Achamian was black or Arabian or something. As is Esmenet lol. (Second cover must be Achamian engaging the Imperial Saik at Shimeh).
They're both Arabian-esque in skin tone and features, like most Ketyai. All the permutations therein count.
Those covers are not good. The first one is passable, although it would make me hesitant to buy the book (the old adage continues to stand).
As for the second... I've seen better art on the front of 3rd party D&D modules for fuck's sake. The woman on the second book is a hypersexualized cartoon like something out of a bad 80s band cd cover.
I know, right. But it's nice to see something. :p I wonder how sales went in Serbia.
Hypersexualised? Really? I mean, they had just been having...sex? I'll be cheeky - perhaps she could be wearing a large black sheet to cover her, then it would be... ;)
Granted, picking that one seems a bit selective, taking a genuine scene as perhaps an attempted sexual draw card.
Callan, when people like ACM complain about women being objectified in genre, covers like that give her complaints validity and credibility.
Thankfully, all the covers in the West have been top-notch.
Jorge, please go back to... the 90's or earlier and pick up any Western science fiction, and many fantasy, novels and it seems all of them with male protagonists - a large percentage of those genres - have, what you so helpfully dubbed, hypersexualized imagery.
Unless, of course, that was sarcasm. Damn intraweb.
Now, perhaps, things like this justify ACM's perspective - which, at this point, might as well simply represent the very moniker of Epitomized Feminism rather than the person herself in our discussions - but within the contexts of the discussions you seem to have, why should she be treated as anything more than an animal, a Feminist creature?
I mean, she's getting angry at some hardwiring that you seem to agree - not an opinion I necessarily hold - is going prove our lack of conscious agency. Men are just playing the cards they're dealt. She might as well get angry at her period, right? [Sarcasm :)]
QuoteJorge, please go back to... the 90's or earlier and pick up any Western science fiction, and many fantasy, novels and it seems all of them with male protagonists - a large percentage of those genres - have, what you so helpfully dubbed, hypersexualized imagery.
You misunderstood me. I meant BAKKER'S covers in the West.
Damn ambiguities.
Excepting those ones with the face... IMO. Not hypersexualized. Just not good.
Jorge, ACM's point is to enforce absolutely zero compromise with other groups of humans over certain issues. I guess in regards to so called female 'circumcision' I'm a no compromise person as well, I'll have to admit. But in terms of this cover - it's hit a no compromise point already? Really? Akka is far more naked...no, still hit a point of no compromise? (and I'd pay I'd like Esme to be shooting dragon ball z blasts as well, but A: it's a patriarchal society and b: ironically to be patriarchal is to get the mark/be damned.)
It doesn't grant validity and credulence to her point, unless the person is inclined towards an utterly intollerant and zero compromise position anyway.
I think it'd be cooler if she was facing towards the enemy, keeping a theme of everyones back is to the camera (except the opposition) the first cover had. Indeed the contrast of that to the western covers, where the characters faces are right in your face and that's ALL you can see, is an interesting contrast.
Here is some illustartions I made:-
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6
Very neat man. These guys inspired me to draw a skin spy the other day but I'm still rounding out his body. Posting it soon.
I have none of your natural talent though. While the Ark moved me, I liked the shot of Moenghus? that you did.
@jmcdonagh I really like the disheveled landscape, it bespeaks of ancient desolation to me. I'd be interested to see your interpretation of Kellhus bound to the Circumfix
Quote from: Callan S.Jorge, ACM's point is to enforce absolutely zero compromise with other groups of humans over certain issues. I guess in regards to so called female 'circumcision' I'm a no compromise person as well, I'll have to admit. But in terms of this cover - it's hit a no compromise point already? Really? Akka is far more naked...no, still hit a point of no compromise?
It's not just about the clothes-to-skin ratio, but also character pose, placement, action, etc. It's a shit cover by every relevant measure.
Quote from: jmcdonaghHere is some illustartions I made:-
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6
I like your style and your illustrations. Not quite how I envisioned the Ark though. Thought it was pitched against the sky rather than perpendicular to the ground? Hit at a slightly oblique angle I believe.
Quote from: MatsI'd get if you wanted to haggle, so to speak - to push for the end of the bargain you find preferable and talk about elements you'd have added or subtracted as a proposal, with some amount of middle ground found in the end.Quote from: Callan S.Jorge, ACM's point is to enforce absolutely zero compromise with other groups of humans over certain issues. I guess in regards to so called female 'circumcision' I'm a no compromise person as well, I'll have to admit. But in terms of this cover - it's hit a no compromise point already? Really? Akka is far more naked...no, still hit a point of no compromise?
It's not just about the clothes-to-skin ratio, but also character pose, placement, action, etc. It's a shit cover by every relevant measure.
But it seems you've hit a no compromise zone?
And to me, that seems so soon.
I mean, that scene basically did happen in the story. How did you imagine it when you read it? Or did you actually imagine it roughly the same way, but you wouldn't put what you imagine on the front cover of a book?
Quote from: Callan S.I'd get if you wanted to haggle, so to speak - to push for the end of the bargain you find preferable and talk about elements you'd have added or subtracted as a proposal, with some amount of middle ground found in the end.
But it seems you've hit a no compromise zone?
And to me, that seems so soon.
I mean, that scene basically did happen in the story. How did you imagine it when you read it? Or did you actually imagine it roughly the same way, but you wouldn't put what you imagine on the front cover of a book?
During that scene, did I imagine a white Akka rising up towards schoolmen, while Esme cowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer? Fuck no.
And "so soon?" Really? Are we required to go through a mandatory back-and-forth, riposte and parry, haggling and arguing, just to arrive at the conclusion that that particular cover is cynically designed to appeal to those looking for a juvenile white male empowerment fantasy, like those that has left the entire fantasy genre so utterly wretched? Honestly, isn't there better things to worry about?
I get that most Bakker-fans are somewhat skittish whenever feminism is brought up these days, but let's not impose relativism on every instance, k? Sometimes, a spade is just a spade and sexist bullshit is just sexist bullshit.
Quote from: MatsDuring that scene, did I imagine a white Akka rising up towards schoolmen, while Esme cowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer? Fuck no.
And "so soon?" Really? Are we required to go through a mandatory back-and-forth, riposte and parry, haggling and arguing, just to arrive at the conclusion that that particular cover is cynically designed to appeal to those looking for a juvenile white male empowerment fantasy, like those that has left the entire fantasy genre so utterly wretched? Honestly, isn't there better things to worry about?
I get that most Bakker-fans are somewhat skittish whenever feminism is brought up these days, but let's not impose relativism on every instance, k? Sometimes, a spade is just a spade and sexist bullshit is just sexist bullshit.
I am not saying those aren't crappy covers (they are), but in the context of the culture they were created in all those concerns would be quite alien (and I know what I am saying, since I am an Eastern European myself.)
That's fair enough. I suppose my concern is mainly that if Bakker-fans as a community can't even agree that something as overtly juvenile and sexist as that cover is, in fact, juvenile and sexist, then how can we properly engage with the alleged sexism in Bakker's works?
Quotecowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer?
This is how I picture everyone on this forum actually. 'Specially the side boob dazzle. ;-)
In all seriousness, I think what Callan is saying is that on some level a good swath of the global population wants to have sex with the opposite gender. The challenge then becomes sorting out the sexual from the sexist.
From there, you run into the concept of moral, I know it when I see it, objection. This is where ACM and those who agree with her are on the other side of a chasm. Though I do think there's some allowance for debate on certain books like those of Le Guin.
For me, I'd say the cover is a silly one, as well as a sexist one. It emphasizes Akka's power (while managing to ignore his girth) and the helplessness of Esmi. Yet the scene does actually happen, and isn't overtly sexist in and of itself. I'd say the problem is more in the conflation of titillation and helplessness.
Well, perhaps we could photoshop venus from the birth of venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_Venus_%28Botticelli%29) in to replace Esme? Hae, Venus! Boob cover fail! Swooshy ride, though!
But to me, it makes me think how these fictional worlds really are incredibly intentful. The intent for this bit is this, the intent for that bit is that. You can have a doco where the natives breasts are out because blah, that's just how it is, but get to fiction and bam, this side bit of bosom is there for THIS reason. Nothing in fiction is just, blah, there. It all has some intentful intent behind it. More often than not, it's exactly the intent the viewer sees, consistantly. I presume that's what it's like in Earwa's outside. The distance between desire and fact is shortened - even if the desire is to see something as dread. And in such a case, it makes it dread. The poisoning eye? Or is that a Finnish metal band?
It's not like I'm open minded on everything - so called female 'circumcision' I'm damn close minded on (oh fucking bullshit it's circumcision!!!!! (even male circumcision is just fucking mutilation, but atleast it's relatively cosmetic mutilation)). Now these covers might be pulp, going out to alot of untidy places. But I have a hard time just calling them sexist without calling the birth of Venus sexist. So what if the birth of Venus is kept in a hoity toity art gallery? If someone can explicity state the rules they use to differentiate, fair enough. Otherwise I think it's just being in the grip of a stampeding elephant. EVEN then, if you choose to have your actions dictated by any strong emotion that comes through, then say your choice. Own it.
So, what are people using? For anyone not stating explicit rules, I'm going to assume people are just acting on whatever strong emotion that comes in. And I'm not even knocking that if a person chooses that. What I would knock though, is where the person hasn't chosen, and instead the emotions are choosing the person. If you can't describe explicit rules and you also can't say you choose to let any emotion coming through dictate your actions, then I'm just not talking to who's in charge on the matter. So explicit rules? Or choosing to cede actions to gut feeling? Again, not knocking the latter as a choice.
Fine. Rules:
-Don't depict women in stupid poses that emphasizes their sexuality to the detriment of everything else (fuck you, comics).
-Don't angle the shot in ways that blatantly pander to the male gaze.
-Don't white-wash. Ever.
-Don't excuse any of this shit by appealing to moral relativity just because you happen to like the cover in question.
-If you listen to a Finnish metal band, and it's not Reverend Bizarre, enjoy dying alone.
Oh, and if you ever shoot a docu and the cover of said docu is a tantalizing shot of some aboriginal leathery side-boob-action, I'd hazard most people would find that quite disturbing! :p
Yes. Thank you.
Quote from: jmcdonaghHere is some illustartions I made:-
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6
Awesome stuff dude. I've always wanted to see depictions of Aurang, the Sranc, Bashrag...*hint* *hint* ;)
Quote from: jmcdonaghHere is some illustartions I made:-
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5
http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6
I still love it being in black and white.
Re: Silly book covers, this site has given me a head-scratching moments
http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/ (http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/)
Quote from: MatsFine. Rules:After years of studying RPG designs on another forum where every five minutes people would use subjective words as if they were objective enough to base a rule around, I aught to have seen this coming. Really, fail on me.
-Don't depict women in stupid poses that emphasizes their sexuality to the detriment of everything else (fuck you, comics).
-Don't angle the shot in ways that blatantly pander to the male gaze.
'Stupid', 'Emphasize', 'Detriment', 'Pander'
These words hinge on a judge. Ask a thousand people to judge if these words apply, you wont get the SAME answer. Ask a thousand people to use a ruler to measure a piece of string, you will get the SAME answer (unless people are fucking around).
Do you use these sorts of words because you have chosen to be fine with a judge? And much like Earwa, what happens when the judge's justice doesn't actually go your way?
These aren't rules, until the terms would produce the ONE answer from a survey of a thousand people or so. So I'm not speaking to who's in charge.Quote-Don't white-wash. Ever.The depiction seems to just be an erronious one. It's a mistake. I'm not sure this rule applies for the reason you think, but indeed an error did occur and the wash was white, so I can atleast relate to this somewhat.Quote-Don't excuse any of this shit by appealing to moral relativity just because you happen to like the cover in question.Don't try cultural imperialism and think it's fine for you to take that position. In no way are you interested in me taking up a cultural dictatorial stance over you, me telling you what you are to feel, from now on, forever - what makes you think you're somehow more worthy of a cultural dictators position than I?
If you want some sort of atleast semi shared cultural standard on these matters (which I can understand and relate to - pretty much everything rests on shared or atleast semi shared cultural standards), attempting it through the shock jock shame down method isn't going to make that happen. Or atleast by my estimate it isn't.
Did someone teach you this method works in some way? What was their name?QuoteOh, and if you ever shoot a docu and the cover of said docu is a tantalizing shot of some aboriginal leathery side-boob-action, I'd hazard most people would find that quite disturbing! :pSee, to me I read this and think "And so people think they are pro feminism, then they ascribe some sort of derogitory quality to womens anatomy...bizaare! What about women who have gone through masectomies - how about a derogitory word for them and their 'leathery' scars as well?"
To me it seems obvious we both have excentricities of value, and thus even more reason to try and work something out, rather than one side just dictating that it will be treated as X.
In the end I'd be good with a reverse of the genders - woman going off, magic blaring from her palms (indeed, with her top up done up even, rather than how Akka has his chest bared), man barely covered and reclined (side of buttock revealed - I've heard some women like mens buttocks!). I'm thinking the man reaching out, dread expression of concern across his face rather than mouth covering, cause that mouth covering doesn't seem to fit. But maybe a tear running from his eye as well, simply because that really does jar against what seems to fit. But that's sexist too, because the womans going out to do all the work while the guy lays around doin' nuffin and a weeper... :p
In the end, I'm pretty sure the birth of venus could be exploited by companies for profit. That doesn't make me hate the art, though, nor want it to never exist/for it to burn. I like the art. The way the companies implement it though, I may not like (I think someone gave a link to a 'wall of vaginas' artwork in another thread - that could be exploited by companies as well, me thinks).
One thought, Callan.
Those suggestions about balance and letting men be objectified instead of women for awhile are still sexist.
I think the cover is at the least emulating the cheesy titillation of 70's and 80's scifi/fantasy novels, and is a bit sexist. However as a general rule I don't see how using the appeal of the female form is inherently sexist, any more than the admiration of any other trait a given female might possess. In fact this attitude to nudity has always struck me as more puritan and regressive than feminist.
Quote from: Callan S.Fine. Rules:
After years of studying RPG designs on another forum where every five minutes people would use subjective words as if they were objective enough to base a rule around, I aught to have seen this coming. Really, fail on me.
'Stupid', 'Emphasize', 'Detriment', 'Pander'
These words hinge on a judge. Ask a thousand people to judge if these words apply, you wont get the SAME answer. Ask a thousand people to use a ruler to measure a piece of string, you will get the SAME answer (unless people are fucking around).
Do you use these sorts of words because you have chosen to be fine with a judge? And much like Earwa, what happens when the judge's justice doesn't actually go your way?
These aren't rules, until the terms would produce the ONE answer from a survey of a thousand people or so. So I'm not speaking to who's in charge.
Ugg. See, Callan, now I am wondering whether you are arguing in good faith, because I believe you know EXACTLY what I mean. Bodies angled in such a manner as to be completely impractical in context of the action depicted. Camera angles that serves only to enhance female sexuality, regardless of whether or not that is relevant to the scene in question. The only relevant discussion, as far I can tell, is whether it is in fact a problem. I'd argue that yes, obviously, it is a problem, because the relentless focus on female sexuality to the point where everything else takes a back seat is in inherently dehumanizing. That's what I think, anyway.QuoteDon't try cultural imperialism and think it's fine for you to take that position. In no way are you interested in me taking up a cultural dictatorial stance over you, me telling you what you are to feel, from now on, forever - what makes you think you're somehow more worthy of a cultural dictators position than I?
Chiefly because I am right.
Compromise is only the right course if all parties have valid points. Arguing for explicit depictions of the female anatomy for commercial gain is not something anyone needs to take seriously. Pointing this out is not 'cultural imperialism', it's moral certainty. And I get that you enjoy practising your Scott-impersonation, but his uncertainty-shtick doesn't actually apply to all situations and sometimes a no-compromise approach is required for societal progress. As I am certain all civil rights activist will tell you happily.QuoteSee, to me I read this and think "And so people think they are pro feminism, then they ascribe some sort of derogitory quality to womens anatomy...bizaare! What about women who have gone through masectomies - how about a derogitory word for them and their 'leathery' scars as well?"
Yeah, that's called being a contrarian. It's rather unflattering.
Mats, I've enjoyed reading your opinions so far - six posts to know someone right ;)?
I don't disagree with much of what you've written, I just had a thought for you.Quote from: MatsArguing for explicit depictions of the female anatomy for commercial gain is not something anyone needs to take seriously. Pointing this out is not 'cultural imperialism', it's moral certainty.
I don't understand what you mean here.
Do you mean that no one would take it seriously because that's not true in our society and culture today?
or
Do you mean that no one would take it seriously because it is in fact some of the founding research concerning psychology as an actionable discipline and the relationship because advertising and psychology?
I mean, in my experience and to my knowledge the psychorelations indrustry manages perspectives all the time, with these types of corporate relations bringing in huge incomes for graduates. And its only beginning. Pioneering Neuroscience is 100% still involved with the advertising industry.
Real curious about this.
Quote from: Madnesssix posts to know someone right ;)?
Gosh, really? Then I better lighten my tone, I think. :p The crassness is an unfortunate side-effect of having limited my online forum time to when I am at work. If I am going to gnash my teeth, I might as well get paid for it.Quote from: MadnessDo you mean that no one would take it seriously because that's not true in our society and culture today?
or
Do you mean that no one would take it seriously because it is in fact some of the founding research concerning psychology as an actionable discipline and the relationship because advertising and psychology?
You are right, of course, that was a terrible sentence. What I was trying to say was that there is no good reason - in the context of a feminism debate - to take someone seriously if they indeed did argue that exploiting female sexuality for commercial gain is perfectly acceptable/unproblematic.
Yup, six posts is enough. Welcome to the forum.
Quote from: The SharmatI think the cover is at the least emulating the cheesy titillation of 70's and 80's scifi/fantasy novels...
It's definitely cheesy, excessively so. I thought it was a screenshot from an early nineties Nintendo game.
Is there some sexism there, sure. Not enough to get excited about, IMHO.
Just out of curiosity, not to derail the discussion, do any of us own a copy with said cover?
My PoN trilogy is the Canadian covers, which I think are pretty classy in their simplicity. Although, I'm now considering hunting down this cover just as an inside joke
As fun as it is to see people argue, I think it might be scaring people away from actually posting more fan art stuff.
Maybe not, but I only saw 2 posts of art, both before the argument ensued, and none after.
Alas! That is all the art within the fandom! Nah, I'm sure there's more. Arguing over covers, as you say, simply doesn't encourage them. Start a new thread for the cover hate.
I'm not sure that this thread was intended for "Fan Art," per say.
I've thought long and hard about the Fan Art issue. For those who have art, post it. Make a thread and show it off. If there is enough interest, I'll make a forum. I'm convinced, however, that many of us here simply want to witness the art and not necessarily create it.
I can't draw worth a damn, so I throw my hat into the witness ring.
http://jackmcdonaghart.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/prince-of-nothing-the-second-apocalypse-sketches-etc/
Heres a few more sketches and concepts ive uploaded onto my blog. (click on permalink to view bigger) More updated stuff to come, full illustrations etc.
Nice stuff, Jack. Thanks for sharing.
That would be toasted CJ in the second last one, yes?
Beautiful, jmcdonagh.
@ Curethan. It is indeed , nice spot.
Wow, swinging Enshoiya around is dangerous, surely Bakker peeps know this ;-)
EDITS: typos and spelling mistakes, a lot of them in so little words, oops.
If anyone has seen the new movie Prometheus, the hairless "precursor" alien at the beginning looked strangely like a Nonmen, except maybe minus the whole beauty aspect.
The Engineers do have that vague Nonman thing going on. Even if they are a bit fugly with their Uncanny Valley faces.
The Art of David Rankine[/b] (http://www.davidrankineart.com/) - The artist of my favorite covers of PON.
Quote from: SiderisThe Engineers do have that vague Nonman thing going on. Even if they are a bit fugly with their Uncanny Valley faces.
Yeah. But I think the Nonmen are described as having a weird alien quality, almost a bit "Uncanny Valley", even if their features are symmetrically perfect and they have bodies like statues of Greek gods.
Sort of like this:
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/173/8/a/prometheus_by_countconkula-d54fty0.png)
I wonder if the Nonmen women where hot?
Quote from: WilshireI wonder if the Nonmen women where hot?
Well, the Sranc and male Nonmen are described as having "a harsh beauty", so I guess the same goes for the Nonwomen.
I don't know how much sexual dimorphism they had. From the TTT appendix, we do know that at least one human man was punished by the Nonmen for fucking a Nonwoman. So I guess that some dudes were into them.
Wonder why the Inchoroi decided to use the Men as templates and not the women?
Quote from: MadnessOne thought, Callan.An old post to respond to, but
Those suggestions about balance and letting men be objectified instead of women for awhile are still sexist.QuoteObjectification, as we understand it, is reprehensible. Being attracted to somebody is necessary. And there’s somewhere in between there that’s where we’re going to live.Good quote dharmakirti brought up at the TPB (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/a-dirge-for-the-troubling-and-the-new/#comment-8758)
I'm not sure if mat still posts. I let that cool, anyway.
More on topic, jmcdonagh' art is pretty much hitting the nail on the head, it seems! The nonman chariot had me boggled at first at the incongruance, until I recognised it. Which seemed part of the art, particularly in how the ground is almost just a simple line and the non central positioning of the chariot is at a non sequetuer position. Via the minimalism I think it really emphasised how out of place that is.
Wilshire, probably the aggression levels. Easier to amplify what is there, rather than have to build it from scratch (well, women can get aggressive, but it usually takes alot to get there (IMO - probably more inclined to do so in protecting children/their children - that's no good for a weapon race, really))
Quote from: Callan S.More on topic, jmcdonagh' art is pretty much hitting the nail on the head, it seems
Yep. I especially like the stark black-and-white contrasts, since the story takes place in a world with a black-and-white moral code (absolute damnation after death or absolute salvation), while almost all characters are what we'd call "morally grey".
I always thought PON would be well suited as a Japanese graphic novel, for several reasons, and this visual touch is one of them. It's literally an universe of blacks and whites.QuoteWilshire, probably the aggression levels. Easier to amplify what is there, rather than have to build it from scratch (well, women can get aggressive, but it usually takes alot to get there (IMO - probably more inclined to do so in protecting children/their children - that's no good for a weapon race, really))
Although the female Sranc seem to have the same aggression levels as the male ones. If I remember the TTT appendix right, a lot of pregnant Sranc fought in battles during the first Apocalypse.
Quote from: AurigaIf I remember the TTT appendix right, a lot of pregnant Sranc fought in battles during the first Apocalypse.
+1.
Since presumably the physical differences are similar in Male/Female Nonmen as they are in Male/Female humans, I'd imagine that at the reduced size the the sranc are (compared to Nonmen) it would probably be difficult to tell apart those physical differences. The Inchoroi likely did use both men and women Nonmen as templates, though the sranc genders ended up being about the same once everything was said and done.
QuoteSince presumably the physical differences are similar in Male/Female Nonmen as they are in Male/Female humans, I'd imagine that at the reduced size the the sranc are (compared to Nonmen) it would probably be difficult to tell apart those physical differences.
The Sranc only have the faces of Nonmen, not their bodies. Going by descriptions, they seem to have simian bodies. They also have dog-like legs, to let them run faster on all fours (in WLW, only the lightest cavalry can outrun the Sranc, while the heavy knights get taken down). And they're very short, probably because their makers wanted them to have small energy-conserving bodies that don't need much food.
I dunno how physically different the faces of Nonmen and Nonwomen are, since we have no living Nonwomen to compare with. That's the only way to tell genders with Sranc (that, and the lack of constant raging boners in female Sranc - although, knowing Bakker, they might be shemales), since their bodies are about as unisex as those of dogs and apes.
Quote from: AurigaQuoteSince presumably the physical differences are similar in Male/Female Nonmen as they are in Male/Female humans, I'd imagine that at the reduced size the the sranc are (compared to Nonmen) it would probably be difficult to tell apart those physical differences.
The Sranc only have the faces of Nonmen, not their bodies. Going by descriptions, they seem to have simian bodies. They also have dog-like legs, to let them run faster on all fours (in WLW, only the lightest cavalry can outrun the Sranc, while the heavy knights get taken down). And they're very short, probably because their makers wanted them to have small energy-conserving bodies that don't need much food.
I dunno how physically different the faces of Nonmen and Nonwomen are, since we have no living Nonwomen to compare with. That's the only way to tell genders with Sranc (that, and the lack of constant raging boners in female Sranc - although, knowing Bakker, they might be shemales), since their bodies are about as unisex as those of dogs and apes.
Also smaller mammals reproduce more often with larger litters and have shorter cycles to carry to term. The inchoroi probably wanted something small enough to allow more than one offspring per female per term.
Quote from: AurigaQuoteSince presumably the physical differences are similar in Male/Female Nonmen as they are in Male/Female humans, I'd imagine that at the reduced size the the sranc are (compared to Nonmen) it would probably be difficult to tell apart those physical differences.
The Sranc only have the faces of Nonmen, not their bodies. Going by descriptions, they seem to have simian bodies. They also have dog-like legs, to let them run faster on all fours (in WLW, only the lightest cavalry can outrun the Sranc, while the heavy knights get taken down). And they're very short, probably because their makers wanted them to have small energy-conserving bodies that don't need much food.
I dunno how physically different the faces of Nonmen and Nonwomen are, since we have no living Nonwomen to compare with. That's the only way to tell genders with Sranc (that, and the lack of constant raging boners in female Sranc - although, knowing Bakker, they might be shemales), since their bodies are about as unisex as those of dogs and apes.
Also smaller mammals reproduce more often with larger litters and have shorter cycles to carry to term. The inchoroi probably wanted something small enough to allow more than one offspring per female per term.
Quote from: WilshireThat would make sense. Though Bakker said that the sranc, when standing at least, are around 5 feet tall. That isnt that much shorter, though they do spend most of their time running on all fours. I imagine the nonmen at close to 7 feet.
That sounds about right, though I imagined the Sranc to be shorter than that.
The Sranc are clearly the shortest of Eärwa's bipedal species, with humans being middle-height, and Nonmen being the tallest. And, of course, the Inchoroi are taller than all of these.
What about Bashrag? They're probably around Inchie height if I had to guess
Quote from: bbaztekWhat about Bashrag? They're probably around Inchie height if I had to guess
Right. I totally forgot the Bashrag, as usual. They don't have very memorable parts in the story, so I rarely remember them. Yeah, I'd guess they are around Inchoroi height, but much broader (triple skeletons fused together, and all that).
(I left out the dragons from the list, for obvious reasons.)
No idea how tall the Inchoroi may be, but I imagine the bashrag like the standard barbarian race height. So in Earwa more like the size of the Nonmen, a head or so taller than men. Having extra skeletons doesn't make you taller.
Quote from: WilshireNo idea how tall the Inchoroi may be,In The False Sun, Aurang is described as "no more than half again as tall as a man". So 8-9 feet, probably.Quotebut I imagine the bashrag like the standard barbarian race height. So in Earwa more like the size of the Nonmen, a head or so taller than men.In TWLW, they're described as "towering over the Sranc", to the point that they can be spotted among the Horde from a significant distance away.
yeah but if the horde is all bent over, making them only a couple feet tall, even a 6 foot man would stick out pretty well, especially if he was several times the girth of the sranc. It really wouldn't take much to stand out. The eyes are drawn to anything different to begin with.
Think of a big white fat guy standing in a horde of small brown furry monkeys.
Now invert it. A big fat 7foot tall gorrilla standing in a horde of 15 year old hairless boys, sitting on their heels and playing in the grass.
Shouldn't be hard to pick out.
Fair point.
Horrifying... like terrifying fucking rats. Sranc, that is.
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005Interesting question. I think I actually have a pretty clear idea of their relative heights, using myself and Kellhus as a reference point.
-Kellhus 6'6"
-Cnaiur 6'4"
-Achamian 5'7"
-Cunuroi as a race, their average height 6'
-Inchoroi as a race, their average height 8'+
-The Sranc 4'8"
-Conphas 5'10"
-Proyas 5'11"
-Yalgrota 7'10"
-Esmenet 5'3"
-Serwe 5'5"
You have to remember that most caste-menials would be under 5'6" due to their diets.
Yalgrota was far-king HUGE!
Looks like we were all overestimating the height of the Nonmen by quite a margin. I didn't personally subscribe to the idea of them being 7-8' tall, but it feels a bit wierd that they should be, on average, shorter than I am.
Heh. I always imagined Esmenet as being taller than Serwe, too. I realise that, logically, a Norsirai concubine is likely to be taller than a Ketyai caste-menial, but Serwe's (for want of a better term) girlishness and Esmenet's (likewise) world-weariness always made Esme 'feel' taller to me.
That would make the nonman, on average, much shorter than Bakker, dont know why I find this amusing
Dunno if this has been posted before, but someone drew this and I found it at the PON wiki (which I discovered today):
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111115094846/princeofnothing/images/3/39/AKKA.jpg)
So what was the Dunyain diet like, if Kellhus is that tall? Acorns and a caste menial starch-centric diet ain't going to cut it.
or did the dunyain feast upon themselves? Remember Kellhus, on his way to starvation, encountered numerous game and never really considered hunting it. Nor did he consider fishing, seemingly.
Defectives? I'll leave that open for speculative ambiguity.
I remember...
Scott saying something about gardens within Ishual... ?
A sustainable food supply seems like something Celmomas would have considered anyway.
soy beans and other vegetables. Though not sure how well you can farm at that altitude?
We get a few descriptions of Ishuäl at the end of TDTCB, when Kellhus is having flashbacks to the "quandary of man" convo. He remember gardens with poplar trees, and drifting bees in the air. So we can infer that the Dûnyain had beehives and honey, at least.QuoteDefectives? I'll leave that open for speculative ambiguity.
IIRC, the defectives are used as human experiments for the young Dûnyain, not as food.Quote from: WilshireThough not sure how well you can farm at that altitude?
If it's warm enough for poplars and beehives, it's probably also warm enough to farm some crops, at least. I can't really see the Dûnyain as half-starved scavengers who live on worms, like the Sranc do. When he built the hideout, Celmomas must have planned for a renewing food supply of sorts.
Lol, while that was my second thought, Auriga, my first was that they also put defectives to work doing the menial tasks. Like yardwork ;)?
+1 for Cannibal Dunyain :evil: ? Oh wait, Kelmomas...
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7029/d4fc6234efd48406362f846.th.jpg) (http://img844.imageshack.us/i/d4fc6234efd48406362f846.jpg/)
Here's another piece
Nonman? Sketched?
Its is a Nonman. this piece is an etching.
Quality stuff!
Found this over at the reddit.com/r/bakker:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B7-8w7S5ibA/RZ3VqIdYENI/AAAAAAAAACk/ERuspEl9XLM/s1600/Drusas+and+Cnaiur.jpg
Real cool.
Neat! I like the "perfect geometries" around Akka's hands.
Quote from: MadnessFound this over at the reddit.com/r/bakker:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B7-8w7S5ibA/RZ3VqIdYENI/AAAAAAAAACk/ERuspEl9XLM/s1600/Drusas+and+Cnaiur.jpg
Real cool.
thats awesome.
+1 Perfect Geometries. Not how I picture Swazond but still impressive.
Anybody around here think they could do a decent job at the circumfix with the tusks in the shape of an x? I have been messing with it a little here and there over the last year, unfortunately I lack the talent to make it look 'right' lol. I'm almost to the point where I'm gonna hire an artist somewhere (maybe I'll try the major anime/comic book convention Megacon in Orlando in March) to give us some nice TSA art. Not saying that what we have seen isn't nice but there is so little of it compared to other series...
I'm trying, Conditioned. I also have some nameless skin-spy in warrior-gear going but honestly, I'm not very much of an artist - my Dad's whole immediate family are... unreal artists.
I have a friend who would be right in creating us some art. I'll pitch him some ideas.
Good god, Yalgrotta is a fucking beast!QuoteFound this over at the reddit.com/r/bakker:Nice stuff.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B7-8w7S5ibA/R ... Cnaiur.jpg
Real cool. - See more at: http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/tsa-related-art-and-stuff-t1194278-80.html#sthash.gA5P5xhd.dpuf
How'd you guys picture swazonds? I imagined them as particular in their execution but haphazard in their placements. I imagined perfect scars wildly ribboned over the forearms and up along the shoulders.
I'm a wretched artist, but I can vividly picture two scenes I would love to put down if I had the talent. One being Akka, eyes glowing, wards shimmering, stepping up into the air from the smouldering ruins of "wherever it was the Spires had him imprisoned". The other being the confrontation between Seswatha and Skafra over the faceless multitudes of Sranc and the Ordeal.
Aren't there description in Judging eye of bashrag hammering knights flat? I'm imagining them about 14 foot tall. Multiple skeletons can essentially be on each others shoulders.Quote from: Auriga(I left out the dragons from the list, for obvious reasons.)That's racist! ;)
Quote from: Callan S.Aren't there description in Judging eye of bashrag hammering knights flat? I'm imagining them about 14 foot tall. Multiple skeletons can essentially be on each others shoulders.Quote from: Auriga(I left out the dragons from the list, for obvious reasons.)That's racist! ;)
I've always suspected Auriga of harboring anti-dracon sentiments.
Making Wutteät ride at the back of the bus...
Wutteät says his feet hurt! Wutteät says no!
Quote from: CamlostHow'd you guys picture swazonds? I imagined them as particular in their execution but haphazard in their placements. I imagined perfect scars wildly ribboned over the forearms and up along the shoulders.
My bold: +1.
I'd imagined them that way.
So, is some deep significance going to come out in the books as to the relevance of where the scars cross each other? Particularly given the process is done wildly?
Who knows - I think we're just trading perspectives :).
Someone on zombie Three Seas posted this smoke-art, I might as well re-post it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lumendipity/490791908/in/set-72157600005114373/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lumendipity/490791908/in/set-72157600005114373/)
proof there is no God: there being crudely drawn porn of every ASOIAF character somewhere out there on the internet while we have to subsist on smoke art and napkin sketches*
*(not knocking the art)
So like when you're ridiculed in newspapers, it means you've made it, if you're characters have any amount of hand drawn porn versions, you've made it?
The inchies would be proud!
the truest litmus test for any author these days is if the first page of search results on deviantart are unviewable because of the content filter, then you've hit the fucking big time
Is that assuming Deviant Art correlates to a Fantasy reading demographic - I guess it must, I've gotten enough "Epic" pictures from DA.
corollary: if your characters are instead depicted as furry bipedal mammals, you're good too
Lol. Should probably get those charts depicting Standards of Notoriety redone ;).
Couldn't find anything on deviant art. Sad! :(
Quote from: ConditionedAnybody around here think they could do a decent job at the circumfix with the tusks in the shape of an x?
My half is done, Conditioned. I approached my buddy about doing some other projects with me, so this is our first attempt; I did the sketch, paper and pencil, and he's - a creative genius - specifically going to digitize it and match the palatte's to the original covers and such.
Let it be known now, and I'll repeat when I post, such an artifact (two tusks on the circumfix) could never exist in Earwa because the cover shown is two sides of the single tusk.
I can find no artwork. That's pretty pathetic. Even deviantart had nothing.
Somebody needs to hire some artists.
For a different type of "art," I found this forum thread. It seems to be inspired by a similar Lord of the Rings thread on the same forum, where users submit crude photoshop mash-ups of scenes or concepts from the book with a car theme to it: http://forum.frontrowcrew.com/index.php?p=/discussion/5893/prince-of-nothing-on-the-go/p1
Sweet Madness! Can't wait to see it. I've got about 10 or so different style sketches of it but only one that is half decent and I need someone else :cough:wife:cough: to shade it for me... I've never had any real training in drawing and shading cylinders proved beyond my current ability lol. Anyway am I understanding what you're saying about the tusk in that there is only one holy tusk and therefore displaying two in a cross is not true to the novels? Or that the actual circumfix is supposed to be one tusk vertically halved so both sides can be seen? Sorry I'm half asleep and completely stoned lol.
Quote from: ConditionedAnyway am I understanding what you're saying about the tusk in that there is only one holy tusk and therefore displaying two in a cross is not true to the novels?
+1 - There is only one Tusk, as far as my understanding of the novels goes. It hangs whole, suspended in Sumna. Therefore, the artist rendition on TJE simply shows the two sides of the single Tusk.
But it still looks neat to see the covers mashed - though I lacked some time and effort with the inscriptions, which, unfortunately for me, are the most prominent motif of the images.
Quote from: MeynaFor a different type of "art," I found this forum thread. It seems to be inspired by a similar Lord of the Rings thread on the same forum, where users submit crude photoshop mash-ups of scenes or concepts from the book with a car theme to it: http://forum.frontrowcrew.com/index.php?p=/discussion/5893/prince-of-nothing-on-the-go/p1
why do bronies have to be a fan of these books too goddamnit. i cant even begin to comprehend the mental disconnect it takes to unironically love a magic pony show made for little girls while also partaking in morally ambiguous fantasy. did they just hear about the rape aliens and were like "YES finally a book with no pictures that speaks to me"
BarbarianKing posted some sweet renditions at the Bakker Subreddit:
Synthese (http://imgur.com/a/8ZAKr)
Skin-Spy (http://imgur.com/a/WozzI)
Quinthane: I particularly like the one of the Wizard (it is Achamian right? Or just some other crazy schoolman)
Quinthane I might have to make one of those drawing my avatar. Hope you don't mind.
"Vengeance roamed roamed the halls of the compound--like a God."
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Achamian.png (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Achamian.png)
so far the most challenging has been capturing a bashrag's body.
i'm thinking i might take a picture of mike myers's Fat Bastard, overlay it with a pic of Rosanne Barr and then overlay those with a pic of Nick Nolte. then sneeze on it.
that should be pretty close.
-q
Another version of an Inchoroi. Hope you enjoy.Nice. I pictured the head to Inchoroi being a little more vaginal, as in, the head emerging from layers of labia within the oyster shell. Also, is the human-ish (or should it be cunoroi-ish) head that was grafted/birthed set in the jaws of another head-type-organ?
Cheers.
Another version of an Inchoroi. Hope you enjoy.
Cheers.
EDIT: Tips on reducing my overall upload size?
Somn's Inchoroi reminds me of something, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Awesome, nonetheless!
Amazing stuff, Som.
i added a couple of things if anyone wants to check them out:
]http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Picture_307.jpg] (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Picture_307.jpg)
Amazing stuff, Som.
i added a couple of things if anyone wants to check them out:
]http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Picture_307.jpg] (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Picture_307.jpg)
Cnaiur
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Cnaiur_urs_Skiotha.png (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Cnaiur_urs_Skiotha.png)
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Skiotha.png (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Skiotha.png)
Also, FB, way to crash the thread :)
trying out a new drawing/painting program.I feel like there are a few different styles that clash in that drawing. Still love it though.
first try:http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Nonman_cleric.jpg (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Nonman_cleric.jpg)
opinions welcomed.
I really love this thread, guys. I'd kill to see some interpretations of a complete Inchoroi and some Sranc/Bashrag as well (I'm a total creature freak, especially when they're as interesting as those in TSA). I do have one drawing I did a while ago, being essentially what my idea of what a god might "look like" in this universe (be sure to zoom-in for detail if possible...this was kinda my idea for how the God of Gods might appear once "awoken", if such a thing can even be visualized): http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/050/6/6/monad_rising_by_francisbuck-d39y8yn.jpg (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/050/6/6/monad_rising_by_francisbuck-d39y8yn.jpg)
Skinny.
Also, FB, way to crash the thread :)
Que?
Also, FB, way to crash the thread :)
Que?
Lol, I just found it funny that you've been here for relatively longer than some of the other members and only now dropping your artistic prowess on us.
Wicked, Somnambulist. Hmm... this is all testing my lack of artistic talent or skill but I wonder how one could draw that distorted grimace of the Sranc.
....charge.
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Zzz.png (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Zzz.png)
skin-spy
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Skin-spy.jpg (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Skin-spy.jpg)
I would have thought Yatwer would be pregnant.
As always though, beauty art everyone. You are inspiring me to finish a second fan-fic story (also attempting to sketch again everyday, broke out the pencils and sketchbook, we'll see where the journey takes me).
He saw the blade that took his head.....charge.
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Zzz.png (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Zzz.png)
Missed this earlier, but I really like it. Instantly made me think of Saubon about to decapitate Conphas, which retroactively became one of my favorite moments in the series. The first time around it didn't really "hit me", just because I was still absorbing the enormity of the universe and all the names and such (and thus I'd completely forgotten about it), but then when it happened in my second read-through it was really one of my "fuck yeah!" moments.
Francis: great Wight-in-the-Mountain. I hope you find more and post them. I'm digging your style with these.
Gnosislove this one.
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gnosis.jpg (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gnosis.jpg)
GnosisWhoa!
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gnosis.jpg (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gnosis.jpg)
Slightly altered Sohorat, still not what I'm really shooting for but it's better than the last one I think: