The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 29, 2013, 05:42:02 pm
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Did this for fun and to see what unexpected locations/povs/story lines we could see in condensed form, please flesh out/add/sub/change completely
Ch 1 Ishual ( akka, mira )
Ch 2 Aorsi ( great ordeal)
Ch 3 Demua Mnts. (sora, moe, serw)
Ch 4 Momemn ( esse, fnyal, wlw)
Ch 5 Ishual (akka, mira, dunyain)
Ch 6 Dagliash ( ordeal, sranc, consult, nonmen, dunyain)
Ch 7 Injor Niyas ( sora, moe, serw, consult, nonmen)
Ch 8 Momemn ( esse, fnyal, zeum, wlw)
Ch 9 1000 1000 Halls (akka, mira, nonman, dunyain)
Ch 10 Jiunati * (tribes)
Ch 11 Dagliash (primetime players)
Ch 12 Ishterebinth (akka,mira,dunyain, sora, moe, serw,consult nonmen)
Ch 13 Dagliash (primetime players)
Ch 14 Ishterebinth (akka,mira,dunyain, sora, moe, serw,consult nonmen)
Ch 15 Agongorea (all players, scylvendi)
Ch 16 Momemn ( esse, fnyal, zeum, wlw)
Interlude 1 The Outside
Interlude 2 Nogaral
Interlude 3 Nail of Heaven (ship)
Interlude 4 Eanna (tribes)
Do those remaining in the south(empire,fanim,zeum,wlw,psftma) unite or war? entrench or march?
Do we get into the Ark? don't think so, 2 more books
*Vanishing Sranc equates to medieval warming period and the Scylvendi explode out of the steppe, but i what direction?
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I'll bite, JG.
We know 1 and 3... and I hazard from the comments on TPB that we are done with Ishual in Ch. 1. Also, I'm going to be outrageous with this:
Ch. 1 - Ishual (Achamian, Mimara, Sarl)
Ch. 2 - Momemn (Fanayal, Malowebi, Meppa, Psatma)
Ch. 3 - Ishterebinth (Serwa, Moenghus, Sorweel, Consult)
Ch. 4 - Aorsi (Zsoronga, Proyas)
Ch. 5 - Momemn (Kelmomas, Esmenet, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 6 - Injor-Niyas (Achamian, Mimara, Sarl, Consult)
Ch. 7 - Dagliash (Zsoronga, Proya)
Ch. 8 - Momemn (Fanayal, Malowebi, Meppa, Pstama, Kelmomas, Esmenet, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 9 - Isterebinth (Achamian, Mimara, Sorweel, Intact)
Ch. 10 - Isterebinth (Serwa, Moenghus, Consult)
Ch. 11 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas, Kellhus)
Ch. 12 - Momemn (Meppa, Kelmomas, Esmenet)
Ch. 13 - Isterebinth (Consult, Serwa, Moenghus, Achamian, Sorweel, Mimara, Intact)
Ch. 14 - Momemn (Meppa, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 15 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas)
Ch. 16 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas, Achamian, Mimara, Sorweel, Intact)
Epilogue - The Ark (Kellhus, Aurang, Shaeonanra)
Interesting comparisons in reflection. Consult at Ishterebinth. Though you expect more out of the Sranc/Scylvendi and the Dunyain than I do.
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This is fun. Now with half-baked plot speculation!
Ch. 1 - Ishual (mim, akka, sarl) - descriptions of ishual, probably ends with the pair finding a surviving dunyain.
Ch. 2 - Aorsi (zsoronga, proyas, kayutas) - first effects of eating sranc, zsoronga wrestles with his self-loathing, proyas and kellhus talk some more before kell mysteriously disappears, kayutas rouses the sagging spirits of the great ordeal into a glorious march to dagliash
Ch. 3 - Ishteberinth (serwa, moe, sorweel) - dun dun dun plot twists galore, maybe ishte defected to the consult?
Ch. 4 - Momemn (fanayal, meppa, esmi, psatma, wlw) - fanayal being fanayal, meppa reveals the wlw for who he is, esmi finds lil kell, psatma is able to oust him for who he is
Ch. 5 - Dagliash (zsoronga, proyas, mereketrig) - dagliash is a clusterfuck of sranc, bashrag, and consult quya. tons of battle scenes, mereketrig being a gloriously unhinged badass etc.
Ch. 6 - Ishual (mim, akka, dunyain) - mim gives birth (has it been 9 months?), dunyain explain who destroyed ishual, reveal where the heron spear was taken by the scylvendi idk
Ch. 7 - Dagliash (zsoronga, proyas, merektrig, saccarees) - more wintering at dagliash. things get ugly. casualties mount. mandati lead a full-frontal assault on dagliash but are lost in the process. great ordeal marches on
Ch. 8 - Ishual (mim, akka, dunyain) - more thumb twiddling at ishual. akka finds out ordeal is marching through angogorea... somehow... i guess
Ch. 9 - Momemn (fanayal, meppa, esmi, psatma, wlw) - shit gets real in momemn.
Ch. 10 - Agongorea (serwa, moe, sorweel, zsoronga, proyas, kellhus, mereketrig) - more consult resistance, mereketrig and kellhus have their rematch, maybe serwa, moe, and sorweel are revealed to have been taken captive by the consult and are headed to golgotterath?
Ch. 11 - Agongorea (akka, mim, dunyain) - soulless drudging through the wastes. lots of introspective shit. idk
Ch. 12 - Momemn (fanayal, meppa, esmi, yatwer) - someone becomes yatwer's avatar, and someone important dies. flip a coin
Ch. 13 - Agongorea (serwa, moe, sorweel, szoronga, proyas) - moe and serwa grapple with the understanding that their father must have known ishte defected, sorweel wondering how he's gonna pull off some shawhank shit to get out of golgotterath AND slay the aspect-emperor
Ch. 14 - Agongorea (zsoronga, proyas, kayutas) - more morale sagging, more men dying, ends with great ordeal finally seeing golgotterath on the horizon
Ch. 15 - Golgotterath (the whole gang's here, + aurang and aurax) - trademark nasty shit from bakker, full extent of consult's depravity is revealed, dont wanna get flagged by the fbi so use your imagination
Ch. 16 - The Golden Room (kellhus, shaenonanra) - everything is revealed, no-god is resurrected, ???
interlude - suma - inrau faked his death, is revealed to be the mastermind behind everything, did it for the pendulous phallus
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Ch. 1. descent into Mordor, Akka and Mim make more qirri from Dunyain ashes
Ch. 2. Battle of Helms Deep in Momemn, Fanayal uses gunpowder to blow the Andiamine Heights sewage system open and Meppa literally flushes the little shit Kelmo out by flooding the thing with 'water' and Kelmomas kills Yatwer (hah send a demigod to kill a god, eh) or somehow binds Yatwer's soul to Psatma's body or some combination of the two.
Ch. 3. the test of Sorweel on the Anasurimbor children. The true meaning of him is revealed as they encounter for the first time a face that does not yield to their manipulations, by hiding so thoroughly his treachery is uncovered, like clicking all the boxes around a mine in minesweeper.
Ch. 4. Battle of Gondor, epic shit happens at Dagliash Mekeritrig makes Kayutas sing for him until he lights himself on fire and throws himself from the heights, the scylvendi are allied with the Consult.
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Man, sometimes one makes judgments about which threads would be fun without checking them all. I really should have checked this one earlier! Awesome.
I don't have the energy to contribute as much, but I'll throw out a random question:
Are any of you going to try to avoid reading the pages which show the chapters laid out? I certainly am.
For example, I don't want to know for certain if we get to the Ark from seeing the table of contents. I didn't do this last time w/ WLW, and I preferred it that way. I suspected we'd get to Sauglish, but I had no idea that the Ishual interlude was coming until I got to the end of the book.
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Takes no time to check a thread, Trisk :P.
I've never had an issue not checking the table of contents in fiction novels... It's like those pages don't exist on the fiction I recollect? I wonder how many of my books have them lol.
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Man, sometimes one makes judgments about which threads would be fun without checking them all. I really should have checked this one earlier! Awesome.
I don't have the energy to contribute as much, but I'll throw out a random question:
Are any of you going to try to avoid reading the pages which show the chapters laid out? I certainly am.
For example, I don't want to know for certain if we get to the Ark from seeing the table of contents. I didn't do this last time w/ WLW, and I preferred it that way. I suspected we'd get to Sauglish, but I had no idea that the Ishual interlude was coming until I got to the end of the book.
You should just look through all of them like I did, I mean there are only what.... about 3500 posts on this site. How long could it possibly take to read them all? (quite some time, btw, I'd know :ugeek: )
And I will probably avoid the ToC as well. Though its not something I normally seek out anyway, I'm glad you mentioned it. Should make everything more... memorable. After all, mystery is what gives life meaning (he crossing the memes!).
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And I will probably avoid the ToC as well. Though its not something I normally seek out anyway, I'm glad you mentioned it. Should make everything more... memorable. After all, mystery is what gives life meaning (he crossing the memes!).
Yeah - I mean, when you get to the book, if the final chapter is some crazy stuff in the Ark you want to be able to exclaim "Most memorable!," Mek-style. Reading the ToC could rob you of that by making the atrocities insufficient.
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Exactly!
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bbaztek mentioned above that perhaps the scylvendi might have the heron spear?! I haven't heard this theory yet... Do we have any evidence of that? If the scylvendi do play a bigger part in TUC then who would their chieftain be? Any ideas?
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"For centuries it resided in Cenei, a treasured possession of the Aspect-Emperors, only to be lost once again when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei in 3351. Its whereabouts are presently unknown" (TTT, Heron Spear, p564).
We had some good speculation about Mimara and Achamian finding the Heron Spear in Ishual, in lieu of living Dunyain. However, Kellhus already having the Heron Spear and transporting it, in secret, with the Ordeal is another enticing possibility?
It would make sense that he'd spend some effort finding the only sure weapon to defeat the No-God, right?
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"We had some good speculation about Mimara and Achamian finding the Heron Spear in Ishual, in lieu of living Dunyain. However, Kellhus already having the Heron Spear and transporting it, in secret, with the Ordeal is another enticing possibility?
It would make sense that he'd spend some effort finding the only sure weapon to defeat the No-God, right?
id bet the Consult has the HSpear.
Scylvendi dont care about it
nobody looking for it before Kell, except maybe a few Mandate fellows
follows first apoc
more for Ordeal to overcome, makes better story
Who leads Sclyvendi?
No new Sclyvendi characters, so either Cainur or Moe or new entry
Did I read somewhere that there are 7 living Inchies and not just Aurang & Aurax ?
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It would make sense that he'd spend some effort finding the only sure weapon to defeat the No-God, right?
It would, assuming it's not just a magic feather.
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Did I read somewhere that there are 7 living Inchies and not just Aurang & Aurax ?
Just the two of them as far as I recall.
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Did I read somewhere that there are 7 living Inchies and not just Aurang & Aurax ?
You might be thinking of the interview where Bakker mentioned that a certain number more than Aurang and Aurax survived the Graft to perceive the onta.
Who leads Sclyvendi?
No new Sclyvendi characters, so either Cainur or Moe or new entry
"Opposite Sorweel, beside the Successor-Prince, sat Tinurit of the Akkunihor, a Scylvendi tribe whose lands lay no more than two weeks' ride from the New Empire's capital" (WLW, p60).
The Company of Scions, of which Sorweel is a member, are the hostage sons of titular leaders at the fringes of Kellhus' dominion.
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"For centuries it resided in Cenei, a treasured possession of the Aspect-Emperors, only to be lost once again when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei in 3351. Its whereabouts are presently unknown" (TTT, Heron Spear, p564).
We had some good speculation about Mimara and Achamian finding the Heron Spear in Ishual, in lieu of living Dunyain. However, Kellhus already having the Heron Spear and transporting it, in secret, with the Ordeal is another enticing possibility?
It would make sense that he'd spend some effort finding the only sure weapon to defeat the No-God, right?
Maybe Kellhus already found it in Ishual :shock: , and the Dunyain didnt want him to take it, so he slaughtered them all (being the loving father figure we know and love).
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IF Seswatha founded the Dunyain he could have fashioned a replica of the Heron Spear and left that in the possession of the Cenei, and placed the real one in the 1000 1000 halls.
this is presuming the damn thing actually does what the sagas say it did.
Achamian's final dream of TTT suggests that the Heron Spear was depleted and did not fire and destroy the No God as previously believed. The False Sun suggests that if the Heron Spear had any juice left in it, Mekeritrig depleted it when he fired it into the glamour.
Perhaps if NC is Seswatha's Son and NC is the NG, then NC caused the NG to self destruct rather than destroy his father. That in confronting Seswatha, he overcame his identity crisis, stopped what do you seeing and what am Iing and realized who he was and what he saw. and that in response to that he went boom. Love conquers all, Oedipus etc.
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That is some really impressive crackpot.
ETA: If NC was the NG, that makes me think that someone else has to be the NG this time, and that the other aspects of how it works (the mechanisms) are the same...it just needs one person. And it couldn't be assumed that the new NG would self-destruct like NC as NG did.
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Unless it needs someone special. Like another Anasurimbor, or some other special world player.
Maybe the WLW becomes the NG to destroy Kellhus?
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WHAT-DO-Y-----MEASURE-IS-UNCEASING
Maybe Moenghus calling him by his pet name, "Nayu" at the end of TTT was a direct hint?
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WHAT-DO-Y-----MEASURE-IS-UNCEASING
Maybe Moenghus calling him by his pet name, "Nayu" at the end of TTT was a direct hint?
Dear lockesnow, please quit fucking with my emotions. Thanks.
LoL, seriously though, the thought of CUS becoming the NG makes me tingly in all the right places. A whirlwind could sort of be seen as fucking the ground, right?
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Don't they call the No-God the worldbreaker at some point? So Nayu could be breaker of horses and men and the world?
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lol horse-and-men-and-worlds.
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I'll bite, JG.
We know 1 and 3... and I hazard from the comments on TPB that we are done with Ishual in Ch. 1. Also, I'm going to be outrageous with this:
Ch. 1 - Ishual (Achamian, Mimara, Sarl)
Ch. 2 - Momemn (Fanayal, Malowebi, Meppa, Psatma)
Ch. 3 - Ishterebinth (Serwa, Moenghus, Sorweel, Consult)
Ch. 4 - Aorsi (Zsoronga, Proyas)
Ch. 5 - Momemn (Kelmomas, Esmenet, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 6 - Injor-Niyas (Achamian, Mimara, Sarl, Consult)
Ch. 7 - Dagliash (Zsoronga, Proya)
Ch. 8 - Momemn (Fanayal, Malowebi, Meppa, Pstama, Kelmomas, Esmenet, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 9 - Isterebinth (Achamian, Mimara, Sorweel, Intact)
Ch. 10 - Isterebinth (Serwa, Moenghus, Consult)
Ch. 11 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas, Kellhus)
Ch. 12 - Momemn (Meppa, Kelmomas, Esmenet)
Ch. 13 - Isterebinth (Consult, Serwa, Moenghus, Achamian, Sorweel, Mimara, Intact)
Ch. 14 - Momemn (Meppa, White-Luck Warrior)
Ch. 15 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas)
Ch. 16 - Dagliash (Zsronga, Proyas, Achamian, Mimara, Sorweel, Intact)
Epilogue - The Ark (Kellhus, Aurang, Shaeonanra)
Interesting comparisons in reflection. Consult at Ishterebinth. Though you expect more out of the Sranc/Scylvendi and the Dunyain than I do.
We know what 3 is?
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Well, that it is Ishterebinth, anyhow: Post Laurier University reading (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/post-laurier-university-reading-t1251288.html). Not that the Consult greets them there.
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Thanks!
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No problem. I didn't know where else to toss this thought. Does anyone think Bakker would throw in a Prologue or Interlude right at the beginning of TUC?
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There were two prologues in JE if you count the initial letter to Kell from some officer. But that was between trilogies and there was a big time gap (in the book). There was nothing in WLW, and consider that the WHCB sections are a bit like a prologue... kinda.
If there was to be one included I'd say it would have to do something with the Nonmen or the Inchoroi, something in the distant past that would foreshadow some future events in TUC or at least give us a bit more background on our mysterious friends.
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There were technically two prologues in TDTCB, the 2000 years ago bit, and the Kellhus bit. They're even separated by the traditional chapter header quotes, the only time that's happened within a chapter in the series.
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Agreed... +1. But in this instance, we'd have to compare to TTT and there was only a WHCB. Fuck... See, boys, I think if Bakker did throw something in, it would be pertinent only to the Dunyain.
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Oh yeah, Dunyain are almost as other as the Nonmen or the Inchoroi at this point. I suppose that is a fair guess as well.
I don't know which of the three, given the choice, that I would pick to know more about.
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I note that in at least one of the books, what (has) comes before actually comes after.
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Say what, lockesnow... seeking clarification.
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as the internet is fond of saying, quote or it didn't happen :P.
Really though, where at?
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I was referring the section 'what has come before' occuring at the END of the book. It was not before the text, it was after
logically such a section should also include the text of that particular volume.
unless of course what comes before the what comes before determines what comes after and the WCB section would necessarily be different if placed BEFORE by the author.
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Chalk this one up as "over my head".
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Is that a suggestion for the next book, lockesnow? If not, which book previously has the WHCB section at the end of the book?
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The Judging Eye
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The Judging Eye
First edition, hard cover, USA
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Is that a suggestion for the next book, lockesnow? If not, which book previously has the WHCB section at the end of the book?
I couldn't remember, I only remembered my amusement that the what comes before came after.
I also find it amusing that the what comes before does not include all that came before it. It comes after but is incomplete, since it doesn't include a summation of TJE that it comes after.
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Interesting. Figured it was TJE as it is the only one I don't have an extra copy at home for rereading...
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I admire your resolve to avoid reading the table of contents! I do not think I have any chance at not looking! :)
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About that Heron Spear--it's got to be a tricky thing for Kellhus either he
A--Found it, but how can he be sure that it's the right one? Testing it might break it and/or call unwanted attention. How can he not test it? If he's got it and he knows he's got it, then he can pull some sweet bluffs against the Consult, have decoys made and lost. Aurang returns to the Ark, having successfully restolen the HS, Aurax says UPS brought something, it's opened, its a whole crate of Heron Spears. I think it unlikely that Kellhus would have the time/energy to make his own weapons of light. Maybe Moe or the the Dunyain or Isterebinth or Eanna could do it.
B--Did not find it. Cannot know that the Consult don't have it, whatever the interrogated skinspies say. Cannot bluff. If the Consult pretend to drop the HS somewhere, Kellhus could pretend to be taken in by the ruse. Hmm?
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Stupid admission: back when I first read about the HS being lost in a Scylvendi invasion, I imagined that it would be found, ultimately, in Cnaiur's stuff. That the "white yaksh" referred to a chieftan's tent pole--the HS painted white and hiding in plain sight. :P The damn thing could be quite big as an Inchoroi spear.
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@ lockesnow - woowee!!! I had never thought of Akka's last dream in TTT as implying that the HS was depleted and thus Mog was destroyed by other means! That's a mindbomb! Would Kellhus be able to ascertain this through interrogating Mandate, Seswatha hypnosis, examining the heart? If he's found it out, he may know the special bit o' gnosis that gets the job done.
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@ Triskele - True about Cnaiur getting the same titles as Mog, but I also note that Mog is known as the whilrwind, same as how Cnaiur sees Kel. I'm thinking it's a shit load of nonsense to throw us off the track! Ieva is the No-God!
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Did not see Atrithau in the above lists--got to be an Atrithau chapter.
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Lol - Anarcane Ground could be the biggest red-herring... but I think that it's Kellhus' City of Solitude. He probably went back after and ruled a little society in miniature capitalizing on his earlier adunyani conditioning. Or just murdered everyone in his scourge of the Demua mountains and his past ;).
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his scourge of the Demua mountains and his past ;).
One cannot guard against a secret.
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My grandpa used to tell me a story about a ruthless Chinese commander who lead nationalists against communists around WW2 era. This guy, reputedly, rose to prominence and then went back to the village of his birth and killed everyone who knew him before he left to shroud his past. I think you might be right about Kellhus killing everyone in Atrithau, Madness.
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Lol - Anarcane Ground could be the biggest red-herring... but I think that it's Kellhus' City of Solitude. He probably went back after and ruled a little society in miniature capitalizing on his earlier adunyani conditioning. Or just murdered everyone in his scourge of the Demua mountains and his past ;).
If there were any nonmen who chaffed at being under Quya rule, then Atrithau would be a perfect place for a mansion. Maybe there's a bunker of last resort down there.
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Another Ishual (exalted grotto right?), though even safer. A real shame that the Dunyain didn't have their little home a few hundred miles south where they truly wouldn't have had to worry about sorcery.