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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling
« on: July 27, 2016, 03:53:32 am »Sranky.
Has a more devastating insult ever been levied?
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Has a more devastating insult ever been levied?
17
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
« on: July 26, 2016, 03:41:26 am »
The only thing that I can think of to reconcile the two events is that they know in Moe's case because he came first as Mallahet and then announced that he was there so that Xerius could parlay with another and then Skaurus' face appears over Moe's. But I'm inclined to agree that there was more of a difference because I recall it being described with a holographic image; not a straight glamour/disguise. The Meppa move seemed to be the latter without any trace of the hologram.
I don't think it's completely safe to assume that the Cishaurim en masse could all pull this move off. I think it's implied while perhaps not proven that Meppa is more powerful than your typical Primary, even.
I don't think it's completely safe to assume that the Cishaurim en masse could all pull this move off. I think it's implied while perhaps not proven that Meppa is more powerful than your typical Primary, even.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor
« on: July 26, 2016, 03:34:06 am »
Were the Anasurimbor one of the Twelve Germs or was the son of Koringhus one of Twelve Germs like twelve of Koringhus' seed?
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
« on: July 26, 2016, 03:19:15 am »
Lol, think how easily Kellhus knew Akka lied right there.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Favorite and least favorite POVs? (all books)
« on: July 20, 2016, 03:37:03 am »
Random thoughts without giving a full list:
I loved Sorweel's POV in TGO, but I attribute that more to the Bakker's very clever use of the Cauldron; it's not that Sorweel is such an interesting character.
I don't much care for the Kelmomas chapters at all. That's my least favorite main POV, and I don't like Esmi much either.
Agree that Conphas is a great love to hate type of POV. He's a massive dick, but he's fun as Hell to read and to have in the story. Bakker himself has said something along these lines or that he's a character that is one of the most fun to write even if one doesn't identify with him.
I loved Sorweel's POV in TGO, but I attribute that more to the Bakker's very clever use of the Cauldron; it's not that Sorweel is such an interesting character.
I don't much care for the Kelmomas chapters at all. That's my least favorite main POV, and I don't like Esmi much either.
Agree that Conphas is a great love to hate type of POV. He's a massive dick, but he's fun as Hell to read and to have in the story. Bakker himself has said something along these lines or that he's a character that is one of the most fun to write even if one doesn't identify with him.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Prince of Hate
« on: July 20, 2016, 03:31:38 am »
RSB's quote upthread makes it seem pretty clear that Nayu is literally part demon now, and I think he's described with the very word "demon" in that last chapter either by the narrator or by Mimara's point-of-view.
I feel like it was hinted at that Kosoter was demonic as well, but now it seems it's been made more explicit.
So what does this imply? Is Nayu's longevity related to this? Is he harder to send back to Hell now than he would have been before the Outside started to seep in?
I feel like it was hinted at that Kosoter was demonic as well, but now it seems it's been made more explicit.
So what does this imply? Is Nayu's longevity related to this? Is he harder to send back to Hell now than he would have been before the Outside started to seep in?
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Prince of Hate
« on: July 19, 2016, 04:24:47 am »
Isn't there a saying about the No-God along the lines of "the soul that encounters him goes no further?" That's remarkably similar to what Nayu says about Swazond.
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: On the Threshold of Revelation: Thoughts on Disembarking the ARC
« on: July 01, 2016, 03:49:05 am »(2) I think their defectives is something else the Dunyain were ultimately wrong about, and that there's something important, and ultimately very useful about defective/broken Dunyain with emotions. Not for the Thousand Thousand Halls, maybe, but certainly out in the world.
"The Trial broke you."
Maybe Kellhus is special precisely because he broke / became "defective."
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: TGO ARC Cast
« on: July 01, 2016, 03:45:43 am »
Will this be recorded? I have many enemies, and I need to know if they could use this against me.
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: TGO Suicides
« on: July 01, 2016, 03:38:38 am »
Ah, and it must also the full realization of just how much the Dunyain were ignorant of.
Who is the "warrior's hand" that removes the gag from Serwa's mouth? Is there a chance that it's Oinaral?
The way the scene is written it seems very unlikely that it's Oirunas. He's too busy murdering the Vile. Could it be Sorweel or Moe? Possible, but I don't take it that way. So who the Hell else could it have been? I'm not open to the possibility that Oinaral survived and followed and is now going to be his Father's book while they take the fight to the Vile. Perhaps there was a clue in Soreel noticing that Oinaral held on to his sword when Oirunas swatted him?
Who is the "warrior's hand" that removes the gag from Serwa's mouth? Is there a chance that it's Oinaral?
The way the scene is written it seems very unlikely that it's Oirunas. He's too busy murdering the Vile. Could it be Sorweel or Moe? Possible, but I don't take it that way. So who the Hell else could it have been? I'm not open to the possibility that Oinaral survived and followed and is now going to be his Father's book while they take the fight to the Vile. Perhaps there was a clue in Soreel noticing that Oinaral held on to his sword when Oirunas swatted him?
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Malowebi
« on: June 29, 2016, 01:55:30 am »
Ptatma did say that his destiny was to witness.
Heh, what if Malo-as-Ciphrang at least gets to take revenge in Likaro? Maybe Kellhus can give him that as a scrap.
Heh, what if Malo-as-Ciphrang at least gets to take revenge in Likaro? Maybe Kellhus can give him that as a scrap.
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: TGO Suicides
« on: June 28, 2016, 03:45:34 am »
What did Mimara do with Koringhus? How did she do it?
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TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] TGO Suicides
« on: June 26, 2016, 03:44:13 am »
So I feel like there were at least two prominent, meaningful suicides in this book, but I'm not sure that I fully understand either, and I hope to get y'all's thoughts.
The two I'm thinking of are Oinaral Lastborn's in Ishterebinth, aka The Weeping Mountain, and down past the Ingressus in the Holy Deep.
The other is A. Koringhus.
The first seems clearer to me in one sense though I am not certain from my reading that it was a certain suicide. Perhaps more of a gambit where he knew it could end in death. Oinaral takes Sorweel with him to meet his father, Oirunas, a huge-ass Nonman. It seems to me that Oinaral is set on seeing The Vile destroyed, and he thinks his father is key to this. He knows or suspects that his father is too Erratic to be safe to approach and knows he may not survive the trip to the Holy Deep. So he needs Sorweel, and he implores him to remember to remind his father Oirunas that the Vile now rule in Ishterebinth. Once they get down there Oirunas backhands the shit out of Oinaral presumably killing him right there, realizes what he's done and laments (but as Erratic probably also gets a nice dose of awareness for a short time). Sorweel upholds his end of the bargain and makes sure to exclaim that the Vile rule in Ishterebinth. This leads Oirunas, Hero of the Watch, to go fuck some shit up in the throne room.
I think it's pretty clear that Oinaral knew or could parse out that he may not survive thus needing Sorweel to ensure the dread message delivered. But was it even more than that and he knew that he needed to die in order to give his father the jolt of killing a loved one that could give an Erratic some brief clarity? That is my biggest question about this one. Either way, what a badass mission and, in my estimation, and incredible piece of writing by Bakker. RIP Oinaral Lastborn. Oh, and to make it all the more amazing, Oinaral teazed to Sorweel on the way down that Nonmen do not commit suicide (when the droppers were falling). Perhaps, unless it is one of the Intact looking to strike the ultimate blow against the Vile.
Koringhus, however, I am way less clear on. His chapter leading up to his leap was fascinating but confusing to me and certainly warranting rereads in the future for better understanding. I get that he was pondering the big questions. The nature of the Absolute and Zero and all of that. And then he was given Qirri. But that's about all I get. Are we to think that it was the Qirri that did it? If so, why? Or was there some subtle conclusion he'd met in his internal monologue that I missed that made it clear why he had to snuff it and Akka was just mistakenly blaming in on the Qirri?
Discuss.
ETA: I apologize in advance for this post not being very articulate.
The two I'm thinking of are Oinaral Lastborn's in Ishterebinth, aka The Weeping Mountain, and down past the Ingressus in the Holy Deep.
The other is A. Koringhus.
The first seems clearer to me in one sense though I am not certain from my reading that it was a certain suicide. Perhaps more of a gambit where he knew it could end in death. Oinaral takes Sorweel with him to meet his father, Oirunas, a huge-ass Nonman. It seems to me that Oinaral is set on seeing The Vile destroyed, and he thinks his father is key to this. He knows or suspects that his father is too Erratic to be safe to approach and knows he may not survive the trip to the Holy Deep. So he needs Sorweel, and he implores him to remember to remind his father Oirunas that the Vile now rule in Ishterebinth. Once they get down there Oirunas backhands the shit out of Oinaral presumably killing him right there, realizes what he's done and laments (but as Erratic probably also gets a nice dose of awareness for a short time). Sorweel upholds his end of the bargain and makes sure to exclaim that the Vile rule in Ishterebinth. This leads Oirunas, Hero of the Watch, to go fuck some shit up in the throne room.
I think it's pretty clear that Oinaral knew or could parse out that he may not survive thus needing Sorweel to ensure the dread message delivered. But was it even more than that and he knew that he needed to die in order to give his father the jolt of killing a loved one that could give an Erratic some brief clarity? That is my biggest question about this one. Either way, what a badass mission and, in my estimation, and incredible piece of writing by Bakker. RIP Oinaral Lastborn. Oh, and to make it all the more amazing, Oinaral teazed to Sorweel on the way down that Nonmen do not commit suicide (when the droppers were falling). Perhaps, unless it is one of the Intact looking to strike the ultimate blow against the Vile.
Koringhus, however, I am way less clear on. His chapter leading up to his leap was fascinating but confusing to me and certainly warranting rereads in the future for better understanding. I get that he was pondering the big questions. The nature of the Absolute and Zero and all of that. And then he was given Qirri. But that's about all I get. Are we to think that it was the Qirri that did it? If so, why? Or was there some subtle conclusion he'd met in his internal monologue that I missed that made it clear why he had to snuff it and Akka was just mistakenly blaming in on the Qirri?
Discuss.
ETA: I apologize in advance for this post not being very articulate.
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Malowebi
« on: June 25, 2016, 11:41:13 pm »I thought that perhaps he'd been turned into a Wathi doll or something acting on similar principles and that was how/why Kellhus commanded him to go and assassinate the Zeumi leadership. Basically a bigger version of Akka asking the Wathi doll to come and destroy the uroborean circle.
The way I read it is when Kellhus placed the decapitant's head on his body, then the Cphrang is bound by Kellhus's will since he killed it and brought it from the Outside. Of course, there probably has to be some sorcery involved there. Namely, I believe that Kellhus has had Ishroiya ensorcelled, since Malowebi's head still seemed to be "alive".
Part of what is confusing to me is that it seems like Malo's POV continues after his decapitation but with the Decapitant's head fused to Malo's decapitated body. It seems like Malo's POV ought to have ended when his proper head was removed and that Malo's body would now more-or-less be belonging to the Ciphrang.
Akka did talk about soul-trapping earlier in the book with Mimara...perhaps a set up of sorts for this saying that souls are exceedingly complicated...so maybe Kellhus' new assassin is somehow part Ciphrang and part Malo? That would be a crazy POV to have in the next book.
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TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Momemn
« on: June 25, 2016, 03:19:18 am »That is the theory, the gods can't conceive being wrong, so the halos get applied to the thing when perception exposes a dissonance
Seems plausible given that we know that the Gods have perception issues re: the No-God.
