The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => Literature => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:43:12 pm
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After reading mostly Fantasy for a while I've been meaning to get into more Sci-Fi.
Are there any Sci-Fi series as awesome as TSA?
Hopefully something dark, gritty, epic, and well-written.
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Well, I would recommend the obvious choice of Frank Herbert's Dune epic - that is the books from Dune through Chapterhouse: Dune, which Bakker's has admitted to riffing off as much as Lord of the Rings.
Honestly, I just wish Bakker would write a SF book. Bring on Semantica.
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My recommendation would be the later works of M. John Harrison, mainly Light and Nova Swing with a few caveats: Bleak and cold, but not gritty. Beautiful and great, but not epic. He has a way with words that is just transcendent.
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Abrahams Long Price Quartet, and his new series that starts with Dragon's Path.
Mind you, Dragon's Path is a slow burn for events in the sequel.
Personally I like the Malazan series but it requires a lot of close reading. The world building is incredibly though.
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I have a love-hate relationship with Tales of the Malazan.
There are parts where I get sucked into it and others where it's a slog. I just couldn't muster up enough Will to read past Book 5
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I loved books 2 to 5, but after sixth book the whole thing jumps the shark.
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I find Malazan both ambitious and interesting, but very flawed. Gave up after Reaper’s Gale (book 7).
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I find Malazan both ambitious and interesting, but very flawed. Gave up after Reaper’s Gale (book 7).
Absolutely agree. The sheer scope of it is interesting but I find much of it too "shallow" for me to thoroughly enjoy. The first and second are all I'd recommend. He abuses the convergence device too much for my liking.
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Sci-fi huh?
Aside from Dune, there's no series quite like TSA that I can rec.
Camp concentration was one novel that mindfucks you, that I liked from way back.
Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan is very good - dark and gritty, but more in a noir way than the melancholy philosophical grimness I suspect you are seeking.
I'm sure there's more, I'll try to remember.
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Hopefully something dark, gritty, epic, and well-written.
!!!
Stephen Donaldson - The Gap Cycle
!!!
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I'd recommend anything by Peter Watts if you like Bakker. Blindsight is a really nice scifi novella with very interesting concepts and some of the most alien aliens I've ever read.
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I second 'Blindsight.' M. John Harrison was mentioned, and he's also a superb recommendation.
Robert Charles Wilson has written a trilogy of books: 'Spin', 'Axis', and 'Vortex.' I've only read the first installment, but I can confidently say that it's one of the best sci-fi books I've ever read, and it scores high in both plot (which is riveting) and characterization (which is consistent and realistic). So I would recommend 'Spin.'
Also, I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned anything by China Miéville. I suppose most of his work could be classified as 'fantasy' rather than sci-fi, but his Bas-Lag trilogy is still one of the most intense and insane works of speculative fiction that I've ever read.
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Yes, the Gap Cycle - this is easily the most underrated series of science fiction EVAR. Very dark, very gritty and yet strangely very touching.
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William Gibson got some great novels I recommend
Maybe someone remembers the rather bad movie "johnny Mnemonic":),which is based on his novel by that name
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I just don't think there is a series as good as the Second Apocalypse. However, some of my SF favorites:
Heinlein, Asimov, PKD, Adams, Wells, Card... the dual effort under Corey (Expanse) is pretty promising.
There's more... I only got introduced to Herbert late, but I think reading Frank's books is worth it.
I liked Johnny Mmemonic ;).
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Some friends of mine picked up Dune and they said it was a bit slow ...
Funny since I didn't get that feeling in the slightest, maybe because I'm used to TDTCB which brings a whole new meaning to slow burn.
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all sci fi fans have probably read them,but I have to mention them since they are not mentioned here yet:),Arthur C Clarkes
Odyssey books.
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If they weren't mentioned, we might not have read them ;).
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haha:) thats true,its just almost everyone I know who are into books(sci fi or not) has at least read the first one(2001 a space odessey).
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Certainly, seems that way - I wonder if it's true lol...
I don't believe I've actually ever read it and I'd definitely figure myself for an avid science fiction reader.
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Bet you have seen the good old movie then:)
anyway,they are great books:)
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I have seen the movie, yes... real long time ago though. I feel like I tried to read other of Clarke's books and he just never clicked with me.
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i've never read clark or seen the movie. So everybody -1. :)
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haha:)
I will research more before I draw conclusions in the future
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well if you subtract 1 from 7 billion (current population of world), you still pretty much have 7 billion. that shit rounds up.
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I was going to say - jan, Wilshire and I are two of the entire forum, much less the entire SFF community worldwide. Something tells me 2001: A Space Odyssey is pretty popular.
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I guess it is kind of popular,but most of the people I have talked to,didn`t like the movie.
I can see that,since it is long and at a very slow pace.
The books are better,but I do think it is by far the best movie adaptation i have seen
Wilshire: haha! again to you:)
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Does the series continue beyond the movie? Or is the original 2001 movie simply based on Clarke's short The Sentinel?
I've read some very interesting pieces on Kubrick's Star Child and the Trilogy Metaphor - that the Star Child comes to full emergence through 2001, A Clockwork Orange, and Eyes Wide Shut (I've read some randomness in my life).
Obviously, to me, these comments are out of context.
Also, neat article searching those originals I mentioned:
Ridley Scott - After 2001: A Space Odyssey, Science Fiction is Dead[/u] (http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/07/ridley-scott-science-fiction-is-dead.html)
Edit: No one panic, he's talking about movies.
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I think Clarke/Kubrick wrote the script to the movie together,with "the sentinel" as a foundation to develop ideas to the movie.
The books follow the story from where the movie ends,if I remember correctly.
I should re-read them before I say more,because it is probably 15 years since I was into Clarkes books,and my memory fails me:)
nice article by the way
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Well... you've interested me, jan. I might have to give Clarke the adult try.
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Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos and Ilium/Olympos are really good scifi with epic scope and interesting concepts. And Dan Simmons can write in a Scriptural style (like Bakker) quite well, as seen in the stories the The River Lethe's Taste is Bitter and The Man Who Cried God, from Hyperion. Although, I liked the first books of both series and the latter books, not so much.
I like Clarke's Odyssey series too, mainly 2001. The first book (which was written after the movie script was written) tells the same story as the movie, but with minor differences in the details. Also, Clarke's Childhood's End is one of my favourites.
But if you can call it science fiction, the Dune series is the awesomest ever and tops everything mentioned above! :) Especially for me, books 3 (Children) and 4 (God Emperor) are as good as The Second Apocalypse. But DON'T EVEN TOUCH the prequels by Brian Herbert!
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Cheers, Twooars.
I'm a huge fan of the Hyperion dualogy, not so much Endymion. Probably two of my favorite science fiction ever. The Time Tombs were an awesome conception, so reminiscent of McKenna's transcendent object.
Big +1 on the Dune up to God Emperor... If only Herbert had a chance to come back and write today based on the evolution that's taken place in genre fiction since his time and the different dissemination mediums now available.
I figure all those old school serial writers could still write circles around most authors today.
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I figure all those old school serial writers could still write circles around most authors today.
Agreed! It's surprising how serialized fiction from those times seems so coherent in novel form now. And that reminds me of another 'stitched-up' novel that has always been a favourite of mine: More Than Human by Theodore Sturgeon.
And while I'm listing scifi, some more old works that I think are not given their due:
- Lord of Light (Roger Zelazny)
- Simulacron-3 (Galouye) - bits of this sound so much like The Matrix, you can't help but wonder if the Wachowskis read the book. Although, they haven't listed it as one of their influences, AFAIK. (They did mention the Ghost in the Shell series as an inspiration - which, for an anime, is surprisingly literary, with lots of philosophy and angst :)
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It's surprising how serialized fiction from those times seems so coherent in novel form now.
+1.
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Roger Zelazny is defenitely worth reading.
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Maybe its not Sci/Fi but there are similarities between Scfi/Fantasy settings of Earwa and the world created by late Karl E. Wagner with immortal Kane being the character. Its a Conan meet HP Lovecraft literature but it was quite entertaining for me in its time.
Another good series is Glen Cook's 'The Black Company'.
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Cant really say he is similar to Bakker but Peter F Hamilton never fails to entertain me, he weaves a good space opera yarn.
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I enjoy Hamilton, as well. The Night's Dawn trilogy was cool, and I liked Pandora's Star/Judas Unchained. Having some trouble getting into the follow-on from that, though (the Void series). Have you read it, SilentRoamer? Should I stick with it? Almost through the first book, but undecided if I'll continue.
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Hey Som,
Yeah I have read the Void. It isnt as good as Nights Dawn or PS/JU but it is a decent read. Some pretty cool concepts which Hamilton always delivers on. At first I found myself quite annoyed by the Eddard stuff but it starts to make some sense later on - I wont go into detail as I cant remember the individual books.
Have you read any of his standalones? I have 1 left to read I think. If you get a copy of Fallen Dragon then definetely read it, I thought it was on a par with Nights Dawn and PS/JU as a really good standalone.
If you like Nights Dawn you will probably like Kevin J Anderson Saga of seven suns as well. Couple too many books and he could have condensed a bit better but the scope of the story is great.
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Thanks, SR. I have indeed read Fallen Dragon, and I agree with you. Very good, but I remember feeling slightly disappointed that it was only one book (as opposed to a series). I started Seven Suns years ago, but only finished the first book. Not sure why I didn't continue, don't remember much of it, TBH. Maybe I'll try again. Cheers.
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Saga of Seven Suns takes a while to get into it. I would definetely try, I think if by the end of book 2 your not feeling it then just give up/ Couple of reveals make you want to keep reading. Then I think it was book 5 or 6 that was slow.
Yeah Fallen Dragon just ended kind of quickly but it was really well rounded and I thought the end was satisfying and I just didn't see it coming! Hamilton releasing a new book this year, actually a story I really want to see:
From Wikipedia:
The Chronicle of the Fallers
Hamilton announced in 2011 that he is developing a new trilogy.He later cut this down to two books titled The Chronicle of the Fallers. It is a return to his Commonwealth Universe, set in the time before the Void Trilogy, and will tell the story of Nigel Sheldon and what happened when he broke into the Void. The first book will be ready for publication in 2014.Preliminary titles for the two books are The Abyss Beyond Dreams and The Night Without Stars.Cover art, together with the release date, for The Abyss Beyond Dreams was unveiled on 19th March. The book will be published on 21 October 2014.
If we get some Nigel Sheldon might also get some Oscar Isaacs - Ozzie is da fookin man!
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Um, I'm not sure this is the right place, its definitely not as good as Bakker, but I liked Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns...
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I have a love-hate relationship with Tales of the Malazan.
There are parts where I get sucked into it and others where it's a slog. I just couldn't muster up enough Will to read past Book 5
Thats where I lost interest as well
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I have a love-hate relationship with Tales of the Malazan.
There are parts where I get sucked into it and others where it's a slog. I just couldn't muster up enough Will to read past Book 5
Thats where I lost interest as well
Discussion on Erickson continue here if you're interested:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1170.0
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From Wikipedia:
The Chronicle of the Fallers
Hamilton announced in 2011 that he is developing a new trilogy.He later cut this down to two books titled The Chronicle of the Fallers. It is a return to his Commonwealth Universe, set in the time before the Void Trilogy, and will tell the story of Nigel Sheldon and what happened when he broke into the Void. The first book will be ready for publication in 2014.Preliminary titles for the two books are The Abyss Beyond Dreams and The Night Without Stars.Cover art, together with the release date, for The Abyss Beyond Dreams was unveiled on 19th March. The book will be published on 21 October 2014.
If we get some Nigel Sheldon might also get some Oscar Isaacs - Ozzie is da fookin man!
Just to add to this:
http://torbooks.co.uk/2014/06/30/peter-f-hamilton-cover-reveal-extract/
http://torbooks.co.uk/2014/06/30/peter-f-hamilton-cover-reveal-extract/extract-from-the-abyss-beyond-dreams/
Extract looks like the usual Hamilton, frank and to the point but with his own style.
Really looking forward to this book. :)
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Ok just to throw out a few Sci Fi series I dont see mentioned as much:
Patrick Tilley - The Amtrak Wars - Im on book 5 of 6 but enjoyed them so far if sometimes a bit crazy.
Michael Cobley - The Seeds of Earth - This is a space opera trilogy. Hyperspace analogues, evil cyborgs, strange aliens. Great fun.
Gary Gibson - The Shoal Sequence - Another space opera trilogy. Really enjoyable series.
Lois McMaster Bujold - Vorkosigan Saga - Plenty of books in this series of varying quality but well worth a read (Even the lower quality books are a decent read, the better books are great.) 25+ novels focused around the Vorkosigan family.
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Probably already mentioned, but Black Man (or 13 in other countries) by Richard Morgan is something that should appeal to anyone who enjoyed TSA, I think.
Deals with some heavy themes (sexism, racism, alienation etc) from an interesting sci-fi angle.
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And if you mention 13, other series by Morgan are also quite interesting - the one that starts with "Altered Carbon", which deals with such issues as identity, as well as "Steel Remains", which at first seems to be fantasy (but I very much suppose it will turn out to be s-f in Book 3).
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Pretty keen for the next one tbh.
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"The Steel Remains" was one of the worst pieces of shit I've read within this year.
The whole book was basically Morgan shrieking "I'M GAY! FUCK YOU, DAD!!!11" The prose was awful and try-hard, reminded by of a limp-wristed Tumblr post.
"Black Man" was really good, though.
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Lol, I found the overwrought gay/violent sex scenes a bit disturbing and uncomfortable (especially in the first book), but the rest of the series was pretty awesome.
I guess those feeling is what gay readers have to put up with watching HBO or reading about Sam Tarley and his fat pink mast, so I can put up with it.
Morgan writes his hetero stuff the same way really - and I'm pretty sure he is actually (mostly) hetero which kinda nullifies the idea that his choice to write that way is reactionary...
I may have experienced a confused boner myself reading TSR at some point, which probably pushes me up the Kinsey scale somewhat too. 8o
Definately check out Altered Carbon if you haven't though, but I wouldn't bother with Market Forces - it's pretty boring.
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Well, Morgan is above all pretty much as left-wing as can be (which is obvious in all of his prose). And heroic fantasy is mostly libertarian dream come true - the strong male character who takes anything he wants, sometimes with overt critique of modern, degenerate (and, as is understood - effeminate) society. Think Conan and the like. So I took "Steel Remains" as a direct contradiction of that vision. Here we have the main character who is very much a typical heroic fantasy protagonist, a strong warrior, war hero - and gay. In addition, his society does not tolerate gay people, which makes him an outcast. I do believe this is Morgan's voice on the situation of homosexuals in our societies. Of course, in "western democracies" they do not face death penalty or imprisonment, but still there is a lot of prejudice.
(I would write more but for some reason my English seems to fail me here and I have trouble to express myself clearly).
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Agree 100%. For me, it's not as effective a subversive vision of Conan as Cnaiur is, but its pretty good.
It's not like Morgan dramatically alters his style to become deliberately provocative either - this is just what being inclusive means to him imo.
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The Gap Cycle by Stephen R Donaldson. likely my most read series ever
Neuromancer (and the Sprawl Series) by William Gibson. the forefather of the cyber punk genre. also coined many terms and phrases used prior to the inception of the World Wide Web
Destination Void by Frank Herbert. also WAY ahead of its time... shit I want to read that again now.
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Though not exactly a series (being a bunch of books where the characters are different but set in the same universe) Ian M Bank's - Culture sci-fi books are the closest I can think of to Bakker's work.
The main reason for this is the AI spaceships thinking and decision making, they're so post human and intelligent it's a joy to read. When the Dunyain were first introduced it was like, "hey, I know you guys !"
There are about 5 Culture books, all great, the first I read, which blew me away was The Player Of Games
Apart from that The Quantum Thief by Hannu Rajaniemi was also a pretty epic read. It will be a trilogy but it's not finished yet. It's dark and philosophical and reminds me of Bakker in the kind of meta-discussion about what it is to be human. Needs a thoughtful read that one though.
Banks on the other hand works on every level; he's just a brilliant story teller.
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Though not exactly a series (being a bunch of books where the characters are different but set in the same universe) Ian M Bank's - Culture sci-fi books are the closest I can think of to Bakker's work.
The main reason for this is the AI spaceships thinking and decision making, they're so post human and intelligent it's a joy to read. When the Dunyain were first introduced it was like, "hey, I know you guys !"
There are about 5 Culture books, all great, the first I read, which blew me away was The Player Of Games
Apart from that The Quantum Thief by Hannu Rajaniemi was also a pretty epic read. It will be a trilogy but it's not finished yet. It's dark and philosophical and reminds me of Bakker in the kind of meta-discussion about what it is to be human. Needs a thoughtful read that one though.
Banks on the other hand works on every level; he's just a brilliant story teller.
Hi Omniron! Its person x from the bakkerfans facebook page! Welcome! Woah, i had no idea that Banks was like Bakker--thats been on my to read list forever. Thanks for the recommendation!
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Yeah I have some Banks books - from memory I think I have Consider Phlebas, Look to Windward and The Hydrogen Sonata.
Banks just moved onto my more immediate reading list.
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Hi Omniron! Its person x from the bakkerfans facebook page! Welcome! Woah, i had no idea that Banks was like Bakker--thats been on my to read list forever. Thanks for the recommendation!
Hi Person X, thanks very much for authorizing my posting rights, I was starting to try and come up with a shortest path to forcing the issue (had : setting up the third-apocalypse.com with all the content on here scraped to force you to get in touch, though that doesn't seem very very short :p)
As for Banks - it's the AIs of the Culture which have a lot in common with the Dunyain, though on the whole they are fluffier.
Something which both authors have in common is being able to conceive and relate characters which are so much more... advanced || functional || intelligent than ourselves.
The Quantum Thief is pretty hardcore - every character is an AI, and can be run thousands of times with thousands of forks. Sounds familiar ?
Good to be here, will post some stuff that is more closely related to the Second Apocalypse soon, once it's straight in my mind.
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Welcome to the forum. Btw there is a post on the news/announcements page that says to email me if you have trouble registering ;). But that's just an excuse. I've been slow to regist r folks. Glad you finally made it.
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Banks has been my favourite writer for years, I love all his work, both sci-fi and mainstream. I'm not sure if I would compare him to Bakker myself, but he's definitely worth reading.
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The Dread Empire series by Glen Cook really reminds me of Bakker. It's a very dark world with empires and sorcerers aplenty. It really has the tone of the prince of nothing series with religious fanatics and a Muhamad analogue vs and Asian themed despotism with magic nobility although that really does sell the series short at one point one of the main characters settles down to try and govern a small kingdom and the interaction of all the ethnic groups and classes that are shown puts most contemporary fantasy to shame.The one thing it lacks is the deep philosohy of The Second Apocalypse despite that it's tone is much closer to Bakker than George RR Martin, and I believe someone, maybe Pat? asked Bakker if he was influenced by it because of the similarities. Anyway if you are craving a Bakker fix the Dread Empire series should hold you over for a bit.