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Messages - Titan

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46
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 26, 2016, 09:48:55 pm »
Quote from: MSJ on July 26, 2016, 09:32:02 pm
So being a women makes you less than what a man is, that's subjective? The path to that is subjective? Right and wrong is written in to the "rules" of Earwa, there is no path to it.

ETA: what I'm saying is being born a woman isn't a choice and yet they are morally inferior to men.

No one doubts that "women being lesser souls or less worth than men" is the subjective opinion of the majority of humanity across time in the Earwa universe. BUT... If that is the hard objective rules of this universe, then I am greatly troubled by what Bakker is doing here. But instead I feel that statements such as that is one of the hints that Bakker is throwing out on purpose, to give is a hint of something more at work, to be dealt with more in TUC, and fully explored in the next series of books. Just like the full scope and reality of the gods was not apparent in the first trilogy.

I know you disagree on this, but that is my opinion. Which might change in the future.

47
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 26, 2016, 06:46:04 pm »
Quote from: MSJ on July 25, 2016, 10:41:18 pm
Quote
The Eye watches. Approves. He gestures to the boy, who obediently comes to him.

Bold is mine. So, what I am saying is that what The Eye has seen and has changed its stance on damnation in relation to Koringhus. Even though morality is objective, there is also the chance for redemption and forgiveness.

But here your logic falls apart IMO. What is in bold is Koringhus(?) point of view. What he sees in Mimara's face. Which is not necessarily true, even though Mimara (and the gods-with-blinders) may think so. Dunyain can see subjective truths in faces, not objective truths.

48
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 25, 2016, 08:50:43 pm »
Quote from: MSJ on July 25, 2016, 07:49:06 pm
Ok, then how do we explain Koringhus? Koringhus senses the whatever Mimara has the Absolute is behind it. He figures all this out about the Zero-God, repents, Mimara forgives and the JE approves. Again, the JE approves. So Koringhus goes from as damned as anyone she's seen until then, to forgiven and go to join the Absolute, I'd say it's the most accurate POV of any in the book. Even though there is much I don't like about it.

I guess I need to re-read the book, because that's not at all what my impression was of what happened. But you may be right.

49
General Earwa / Re: TSACast (SA Podcast)
« on: July 25, 2016, 07:06:30 pm »
Quote from: Madness on July 25, 2016, 06:19:58 pm
I'll send a PM later today. See if we can't arrange one for this week or next (though, apparently, it's Monday again already :-\ ).

I'm eagerly awaiting the next podcast.  :)  And perhaps the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Moënghus theories that TGO crushed? ;)

50
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 25, 2016, 05:12:49 pm »
Quote from: MSJ on July 25, 2016, 08:54:28 am
Quote
MSJ: I saw & included your answer from RSB in my post, thanks. It's an important point. I suppose I just don't feel comfortable with that idea! As if these books were meant to make us feel comfortable. LOL. I'm curious about how morality can ever be objective anywhere. (Except in the minds of certain kinds of philosophers & religious zealots.) I suppose it goes back to my original question: is it just a premise that we have to accept, like a McGuffin in a SciFi tale? To which you are, I gather, saying: "Yes it is." If we accept sorcery as a premise, then why not eternal damnation?

I see where your coming from and it's why I asked Bakker the question. I argued a lot about it at Westeros the past couple of years. I was wrong, Bakker says morality is objective. So, I guess in these books, on Earwa, yes it's something we just have to accept.

That may well be true, but my argument is that the *Judging Eye* is should not be taken at face value for deciding morality/damnation of a person - it presents a very slanted view. (women souls being lesser, and other things)

51
The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor
« on: July 25, 2016, 05:28:14 am »
Quote from: RedSetter4570 on July 25, 2016, 04:55:53 am
Quote from: Titan on July 24, 2016, 10:50:21 pm
Quote from: Odium on July 24, 2016, 10:31:39 pm
In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.

Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.

So the Dunyain are basically super smart hillbillies?  Yes, I'll buy that.

Not exactly what I was trying to say, but I guess that is one way to put it.  ;D

52
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 25, 2016, 05:27:30 am »
Quote from: Cosi on July 25, 2016, 03:54:35 am
Quote from: spacemost on July 24, 2016, 11:46:41 pm
Has Mimara ever seen a 'pure' soul with her eye? Maybe everyone is damned.

I recall early in The Judging Eye when she's first introduced it mentions something like "good men shine more than good women", but that could easily be a degrees of damnation thing rather than seeing people who are actually saved.

Yes, and the "fact" that she says that men's souls "shine brighter" than women's is probably another giveaway that the Judging eye is heavily influenced by Earwa society and history, and *not* objective truth.

53
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
« on: July 25, 2016, 12:16:57 am »
Quote from: JRControl on July 24, 2016, 11:45:54 pm
I am kind of suspicious of this Kellhus who turned over a new leaf and supposedly cares. He point blank said to Esmenet's face: "Love is for lesser souls" or something to that effect, unless I confabulated the whole section.

You should be. Unless you are reading things from HIS point of view, EVERYTHING he says is only done to create the outcome "that place that was Kellhus" desires. It might be lies or truth, but it is all manipulation.

54
The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor
« on: July 24, 2016, 10:50:21 pm »
Quote from: Odium on July 24, 2016, 10:31:39 pm
In one of his PoV scenes Koringhus shoots down the idea of all Dunyain being Anasurimbors. He just confirms that they are the greatest of the (I think eight?) lineages that were selected to form part of the Ishual project.

Yes but with such a small population, after 2000 years they would have bred the best with the best until all lines were thoroughly mixed, so that may be not much of a practical difference.

55
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] general A few questions + the only thing I didn't like
« on: July 24, 2016, 08:35:58 pm »
Quote from: robizeratul on July 15, 2016, 09:27:20 pm
4)Why did Saubon die? was that the plan all along? Didn't Kellhus know he was in Danger there? 
 
5)why did he rape the general? 

I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think... While he probably expected the Consult to throw a surprise, I don't believe that Kellhus predicted the nuke, it seemed to be one of the rare moments when he had to go into deep probability trance to figure the shortest path from this new scenario.

And the rape of Proyas was more to break down Saubon than Proyas, it seems.

56
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus
« on: July 24, 2016, 05:29:00 pm »
Quote from: H on July 24, 2016, 02:29:11 pm
Quote from: MSJ on July 24, 2016, 03:18:07 am
Anyone have anything that they might add to my thoughts?

It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?"

Hah! Now that you mention it, it seems obvious that it will happen.

57
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
« on: July 24, 2016, 05:26:28 pm »
Viridius,
I get the impression that Kellhus thinks that the Gods are the greater evil... He is fighting the Consult, but as a way to stab at a the gods, if that makes sense.

Quote from: Viridius on July 24, 2016, 11:21:58 am
Did he go back to Momemn (a choice I still find puzzling if his main goal was the success of the GO) to make sure that things were coming to a head there? Got to get your timing right! Maybe it was even wilder than he had imagined. & Esmi is covered in her daughter's blood, he says:"What have you done?" Know-it-all Kellhus is surprised & uncertain? Or is that just another manipulative response to Esmi in order to take control of the situation?

I think Kellhus left the GO on purpose - the new "shortest path" after the nuke - but I expect him to return to it shortly. Perhaps the GO reaching Golgotterath without him is what will help kill the faith in him and thus the gods.

I guess my point is that the important part in in plan was to temporarily leave the GO. So once he left the GO, he might as well go to Monemn. Where else? :-)

58
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
« on: July 24, 2016, 06:35:49 am »
Quote from: RedSetter4570 on July 24, 2016, 04:37:36 am
I think we are seeing Khellus as he is seen by world born men: a sympathic character who reveals enough through his words and actions to win our trust.  He's a bigger monster than ever (then again, so are the gods).

Bingo. His POV sections are chilling. Yet I'm still rooting for him against the Consult and the Gods, what does that make me?   :-\

59
The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 24, 2016, 05:54:46 am »
Some thoughts after finishing TGO yesterday...

Mimara's "judging eye" visions bother me. Are they really truly 100% objective? I think not.

Her vision is a rare gift from the gods, yes? But we already know the the Gods do not see all. And there also seems to be some sort of feedback loop from faith of believers across time to the gods. Yatwer is strong because of the number of believers/followers. So... The judging eye sees things certain actions as "damned" because the majority of souls view those actions as "damned"? But does that really mean that this is true!?!

This also brings me back to the idea of sorcery "staining" someone. Yes, sorcery is different that natural things. The "few" - and well conditioned Dunyain - can see the difference between natural and sorcerous things. But why does using sorcery damn you? Isn't that an idea that the Inchoroi snuck into the Tusk? To create this division between normals and sorcerers? Didn't priest-sorcerors lead humans before they entered Earwa, so why would using it cause you to be damned in the first place?

So when Mimara declares Cnaiur the most damned soul she as ever seen - this just seems... strange. Yes, he is a bad man. He has done many evil things. But the judging eye shows him that harshly? Really?

So in conclusion, all these thoughts somehow makes me think that the Judging Eye is not as objectively true, that it only shows her the limited POV of the god(s), with a fair sprinkling of her own prejudices. Thoughts?


60
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling
« on: July 24, 2016, 05:35:52 am »
Quote from: Cosi on July 24, 2016, 03:57:32 am
Quote from: spacemost on July 24, 2016, 12:04:00 am
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.

I dunno. I read zero joy in that. No emotion at all, really. The language Bakker uses is very non-natural and removed. Within the story, it seemed pretty clearly a part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas and/or Saubon to lead the Ordeal.

Indeed. Kellhus seemed to get no "joy" out of it, it was all to manipulate Saubon and Proyas. No emotion was involved, but I'm not sure it makes it better or worse.

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