The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: RedSetter4570 on July 21, 2016, 01:29:24 am

Title: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 21, 2016, 01:29:24 am
I'm confused and disturbed by many things in Great Ordeal.  But I do have to ask for further opinions on the Whale Mothers.  It was surmised or stated (I had the audiobook so I can't cite the passage) that Dunyain women are different from men, bred for breeding, and such much larger, less able to move around.  Yet Kellhus's 1/2 world born children, the girls at least, are either the hottest chick to ever spit sorcery, or a sranc-like being with superior intellect and the best dresses this side of Tim Gunn.  I can't wrap my head around how that whole thing works, or how the biology of the Dunyain male/females allows such.

[EDIT Madness: For title. I know it seems tedious but it's so members who browse the recent topics, unread posts, or see which was the most recent thread posted in don't inadvertently spoil themselves.]
Title: Re: Whale Mothers
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2016, 01:36:03 am
Yeah, its pretty silly to me as well.  And Khellus explicitly selects Esme as a breeding partner because of her superior intelligence - which makes no sense in light of the whale mothers and the fact that Khellus is well acquainted with Dunyain breeding practice.  A real stumble in the world building - even if it's just a failure to foreshadow/explain whatever the rationale behind the dissonance is.

Should've just found a thick bodied healthy woman, nah?

edit; you double posted this thread man, I went ahead and deleted the other one for you ;)
Title: Re: Whale Mothers
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 21, 2016, 01:52:40 am
Thanks for the solid, guess I got over eager on hitting the post button!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on July 21, 2016, 02:44:34 am
Yeah, its pretty silly to me as well.  And Khellus explicitly selects Esme as a breeding partner because of her superior intelligence - which makes no sense in light of the whale mothers and the fact that Khellus is well acquainted with Dunyain breeding practice.  A real stumble in the world building - even if it's just a failure to foreshadow/explain whatever the rationale behind the dissonance is.

Call me foolish, Curethan, but I'm going to put it out there because it's sparked so much dissonance.

In the Q&A here, Bakker claimed to have had pieces of writing detailing the Whale-Mothers in TGO as far back as pre-TDTCB publication. It's possible there is something else going on here, in terms of being consistent with the world he's crafted?

Also, I've only the Westerosi or Wilshire to look to for really in-depth articulations - though, there was a thread on r/bakker too - about the biology of it all. What does happen to a broodmare? What happens to generations of broodmares? Doesn't Esmenet's composition affect matters at all? Certainly, Kellhus is much less likely to have a girl resembling the Whale-Mothers with Esmenet?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2016, 03:36:14 am
I'm not sure of your contention aside from the possibility of more successful daughters.
 
I mean, even there we have foreshadowing that seems to dismiss that possibility; where previous volumes' "what has come before" state that Khellus requires sons.

Sure, there is the probability that there is more going on, but that isn't really the point as far as my dissatisfaction (except insofar as there is no hint of anything more going on).

I look at it as a world-building issue for now.  I mean that in terms of consistency from a reader's perspective, something Bakker is usually very, very good at in my eyes. And for me it is worse than 'why not Chorae plus Wracu?'.

The whale-mothers just contradict many implications of character actions, in-world consequence and assumptions from real-world experience without much set-up or explanation. It is used as the premier example of why the Dunyain are objectively evil and then simply left at that without further edification.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on July 21, 2016, 03:47:28 am
I'm not sure of your contention aside from the possibility of more successful daughters.
 
I mean, even there we have foreshadowing that seems to dismiss that possibility; where previous volumes' "what has come before" state that Khellus requires sons.

Sure, there is the probability that there is more going on, but that isn't really the point as far as my dissatisfaction (except insofar as there is no hint of anything more going on).

I look at it as a world-building issue for now.  I mean that in terms of consistency from a reader's perspective, something Bakker is usually very, very good at in my eyes. And for me it is worse than 'why not Chorae plus Wracu?'.

The whale-mothers just contradict many implications of character actions, in-world consequence and assumptions from real-world experience without much set-up or explanation. It is used as the premier example of why the Dunyain are objectively evil and then simply left at that without further edification.

Hmm... somewhere I've been unclear.

My only "contention," I think, is why it's perceived automatically as implausible in-world and why that should cause the reader such dissonance.

If Bakker had drafts of the Whale-Mother passages done pre-TDTCB release, then it implies to me that Earwa doesn't reflect our real-world "causal mechanics" so much as we previously thought. Or real-world generations of broodmares do eventually resemble Tleilaxu Axolotl tanks. Or that Esmenet's contribution to their progeny would yield normal, human-looking daughters.

Also, Bakker addressed the Chorae/Wracu gripe in the Wracu and Chorae (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1709.msg27751#msg27751) and in another secondary thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1868.msg27841#msg27841) with some interesting responses.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2016, 03:56:33 am
Hmm... somewhere I've been unclear.

My only "contention," I think, is why it's perceived automatically as implausible in-world and why that should cause the reader such dissonance.

If Bakker had drafts of the Whale-Mother passages done pre-TDTCB release, then it implies to me that Earwa doesn't reflect our real-world "causal mechanics" so much as we previously thought. Or real-world generations of broodmares do eventually resemble Tleilaxu Axolotl tanks. Or that Esmenet's contribution to their progeny would yield normal, human-looking daughters.

I get you now. I kinda covered this above - the three-fold issues (implications of character actions, in-world consequence and description and assumptions from real-world experience) combine into a gripe greater than the sum of it's parts in my head. It's not the fact of the Whale-mothers - it is the execution that sucks.

Quote
Also, Bakker addressed the Chorae/Wracu gripe in the Wracu and Chorae (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1709.msg27751#msg27751) and in another secondary thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1868.msg27841#msg27841) with some interesting responses.

Thanks man, I have browsed those Chorae/Wracu discussions. Not that it was ever much of an issue to me. ;)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on July 21, 2016, 02:14:11 pm
Why do people assume the Whale Mother's weren't intelligent? I can't remember if that's stated by mimara or not.

If its not said, I can't imagine that they would be unintelligent. That, at least, would be consistent with finding an intelligent woman to bare dunayin children, since Kellhus/Moenghus wouldn't be able to find a true dunyain woman.

I totally get the criticism of them, though they didn't bother me. There needs to be more exposition on how/why they came to be. Women baring a differing portion of the Mission compared to men is fine, but a few more words on the matter would have gone a long way.

 Bakker responded somewhat generally to the criticisms in a TPB post. He mentions that the Logos and other Earwa-metaphysics things somehow allow for this type of gender dysmorphia. That's nice I guess but does little to explain what is actually happening there. Evidently Bakker thinks that we have either already received enough information on the subject and haven't figured it out yet (regarding logos/metaphysics/subjective-realities, etc.), or that information later on will reveal to us the greater workings of the world. I'm inclined to the latter. Once TUC wraps up, I assume we'll have all the information required to unravel the remaining mysteries - barring actual mistakes.

I doubt the entire Whale-Mother thing is as poorly thought out as some people suggest. So far, nothing in the series has been, so I have faith. Unfortunately, the series as a whole is about layered revelations, so until the story is done there just isn't currently sufficient in-text evidence to satisfy all critics.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cosi on July 21, 2016, 02:22:05 pm
I'd guess that the Whale Mothers are intelligent, and the physical dysmorphia is required to support full-blooded Dunyain children ("the seed is too strong"). Doesn't explain why Serwa and Thelopia look human though. Maybe the Whale Mother gene is recessive?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on July 21, 2016, 03:14:39 pm
I'd guess that the Whale Mothers are intelligent, and the physical dysmorphia is required to support full-blooded Dunyain children ("the seed is too strong"). Doesn't explain why Serwa and Thelopia look human though. Maybe the Whale Mother gene is recessive?

It's been a long, long time since Biology class, but there are possible explanations in a double recessive genes, which if non-Dunyain humans have a dominant one, or even series of linked alleles that mean that inbreeding (which the Dunyain certainly are) will give Whale-Mothers almost all the time (between Dunyain parents).  We actually don't know how many "defective" (i.e. closer to familiar human) females there ever were, so there certainly is plausibility in just being pretty simple genetics.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on July 21, 2016, 03:20:05 pm
For the sake of argument: for example IRL, all cell organelles are given to you by your mother. Some organelles, like mitochondria, have their own DNA that is entirely separate from all the DNA in your body - different than everything else that "make you you".
Could be that the Dunyain women are infected, accidentally or on purpose, with some special something. Could be a mutation in the mitochondria, or for some reason a special organelle, or a virus embedded in one of those organelles. These types of things could happen IRL. At any rate some change that occurs would only be passed from Dunyain mothers to Dunayin children. A Dunyain father and a world-born woman would simply never be able to pass along whatever it is that this change was. Never. (This is why there is a "mitochondrial eve", ie we can trace our genetic line back, from woman to woman, to a single mother of the species.)

Btw, the assumption would be that whatever makes the Whale-Mothers so big, and whatever it is that keeps the Dunyain male children relatively normal, is due to this special/mutated/extra organelle. When its lost, you get screwed up half-dunyain and relatively physically normal looking female children.

Also, the Rape of Omindalea, I believe, is exceedingly important. This is a direct causal link for nonman genetics in the Anasurimbor. We could further assume, then, that whatever this mutation or virus or whatever it is that makes Dunyain and/or Whale-Mothers is something that can only affect/infect/effect those humans that have their genetics intertwined with the Anasurimbor line. A species specific thing that always affected Nonmen, and their giant whale-like women that we conveniently never see, and found its way to Ishual.


That turned into a bigger post than I expected. Anyway, there are plenty of reasons why Whale-Mothers could exist IRL. Assuming that they can't, I think, is more of a knee-jerk reaction at the disturbia of the scene rather than any real thinking through of possibilities.

Anyway, this is only a worthwhile discussion if you believe that everything in Earwa is the same as it is in our universe. Its not. We've got magic, special metaphysics, and alien interbreeding genetics going on. There should be some way to incorporate any of that into the "why/how whale-mother" question. However, if you want earth/human genetics, there you go.  If you want other options to make this happen, let me know. I'm sure several other examples can be found.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 22, 2016, 01:47:13 am
A recessive trait,  or traits, exploited over thousands and thousands of generations makes sense, kind of like how birds have different colors, or frog females are larger than males.  Those without the recessive traits would be culled.  The Dunyain are an extremely small gene pool, I mean we have met what?  Four Dunyain, and they all were named Anasurimbor?   By bringing in world born genes, the recessive traits are erased.  Considering how many of Kehllus's children would not be considered defective (2?) it illustrates how many Dunyain children reach adulthood, much less breed, which indicates how exclusive the genes are.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Ciogli on July 22, 2016, 06:31:21 am
For this if he wanted to he could invoke the Nonmen genes, with the Tall their is precedent for the enormous size. If those genes for the Tall lay dormant within the Anasurimbor line then the genes could have been activated during the breeding project and only expressed in the females. The Dunyain Elders seeing this could have selected for it to become dominant in all females. These females would be full Dunyain but of great size. They would have been selected for native intelligence like the male's, but imprisoned and maimed before their size made them unmanageable.

It is a interesting thought of what an unbound Dunyain female would be like, would they be like Oirunas or Ciogli? If they were as capable as their men has intelligent it must have been an unimaginable life for them. Think of how fast Kellhus thinks and then not be to move or speak until death, cloaked in eternal darkness. They could have calculated to the day in minutes and hours of how long this would last. The Elders must have kept them sequestered as children from all the boys, they could have guessed for themselves why their were no grown females about and sought escape or death.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 22, 2016, 03:27:11 pm
I think the Dunyain would have lobotomized them, this would solve the managability problem while having no dysgenic effects for future breeding.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on July 22, 2016, 04:39:12 pm
This is why I invoked Wilshire's perspective.

Also, Wilshire, now that the book is out in the open we should check out your mind-map as the Survivor ruminates on the "twelve Germs," which are implied to be the twelve seed groups the Dunyain started with.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: themerchant on July 22, 2016, 05:00:16 pm
Yeah i noticed that as well, and was pondering whether it meant as you say or he had 12 sons and picked one.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on July 22, 2016, 05:07:56 pm
Also, I've only the Westerosi or Wilshire to look to for really in-depth articulations - though, there was a thread on r/bakker too - about the biology of it all. What does happen to a broodmare? What happens to generations of broodmares? Doesn't Esmenet's composition affect matters at all? Certainly, Kellhus is much less likely to have a girl resembling the Whale-Mothers with Esmenet?
Did I answer the questions at all?
If it was strictly a DNA thing, it gets harder to justify, but not impossible. As described above "double recessive" seems like a vague term but accurate.
Basically, in order for a specific physical trait (phenotype) to be exhibited, you have to have a corresponding genotype (genes/dna/etc.). However, it doesn't have to be, and rarely is, a 1:1 relationship. So, for the Whale-Mothers, you'd have to assume that there is a whole slew of recessive genes that need to line up for get the desired phenotypes. One of those genes would likely need to be on the X chromosomes so that you could make it gender specific. All male dunyain could be carriers after a time, but if you assume you need specific pairings of XX, then once they breed with a world born, you'd necessarily lose one of those X chromosomes, and thus negating the possibility of receiving all the necessary recessive genes for whalemotherism.

"Founder's Affect" is also likely happening. Even if only a tiny subset of the Earwa at-large human population has a certain recessive, or even a rare dominant trait, if but 1 of those original founding families had that trait it would likely exist far more frequently in the Dunyain population. Throw in breeding programs that are intentionally selecting for specifics traits, be it intelligence or whalemotherism, and even the rarest genes can be cultivated.

As for broodmares specifically, it would be extremely difficult, imo, to designate a specific family of females that did not become whale mothers. You'd have to always keep them separate from the genepool, basically running an entirely separate breeding program for them, which would get more and more difficult as the centuries went by. Probably not worth the effort unless there was some specific reason to have special subset of females running around.

This is why I invoked Wilshire's perspective.

Also, Wilshire, now that the book is out in the open we should check out your mind-map as the Survivor ruminates on the "twelve Germs," which are implied to be the twelve seed groups the Dunyain started with.
12 is, I believe, more than sufficient. I'd have to go back and check, but I think my original theory specified an absolute minimum of 8 genetically diverse individual families as genetic stock (ignoring alien genetics).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 23, 2016, 12:24:05 am
Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: themerchant on July 23, 2016, 02:47:39 am
I don't know enough about genetics to know it is a problem. Do linguists have the same problem when hearing that semantic purity can allow you to speak in peoples dreams? Does the impossibility of that jar the same way?

Title: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Titan on July 23, 2016, 07:46:36 am
Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?
This is can buy. Remember that Kellhus was only able to get living offspring with Esmenet (all others were died and/or had stillborns or severe defects), so he must be aware that she carries some traits in common with Dunyain women. Dunyain pregnancies are apparently very difficult, so perhaps they bred form females that would be ... hardier ... In child birth.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cosi on July 23, 2016, 01:02:17 pm
Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?

It's got to be related to the whole "the seed is too strong" deal. Esmenet could barely deal with bearing half-Dunyain children, and literally all of them were defective to some lesser or greater degree (except maybe Kayutas). To me, that implies that a strongly specialized host is needed to carry Dunyain children. One flaw in this is the existence of Maithanet. He had no obvious flaws (he was even of the few), and he was the son of a random Fanim woman as far as we know. I also remember (though my memory is somewhat spotty) him saying there were only a few failures, although that may be counting only live non-mutant births.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Titan on July 23, 2016, 10:48:23 pm
Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?

It's got to be related to the whole "the seed is too strong" deal. Esmenet could barely deal with bearing half-Dunyain children, and literally all of them were defective to some lesser or greater degree (except maybe Kayutas). To me, that implies that a strongly specialized host is needed to carry Dunyain children. One flaw in this is the existence of Maithanet. He had no obvious flaws (he was even of the few), and he was the son of a random Fanim woman as far as we know. I also remember (though my memory is somewhat spotty) him saying there were only a few failures, although that may be counting only live non-mutant births.


But who's to say how many times "Moe" tried to get offspring, until he succeeded wth Maithanet? I suspect Moe took great care in selecting his mother, just a like Kellhus selected Esmenet.

But you are right that Kayutas seems to be the only "normal" one that is the most similar to Maithanet. I hope we'll have something from his perspective in TUC.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cosi on July 24, 2016, 03:53:19 am
But you are right that Kayutas seems to be the only "normal" one that is the most similar to Maithanet. I hope we'll have something from his perspective in TUC.

One thing to note is that unlike Moe, Maithanet, Kellhus, and Koringhus he is not of the few. I'm not completely convinced it means anything, but there's a mounting pile of evidence that pure/not-defective Dunyain (at least, of the Anasurimbor line) are all of the Few. Possibly a result of the Dunyain coming close to grasping the Absolute. Do we know if Inrilatas was one of the Few?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: RedSetter4570 on July 24, 2016, 04:51:08 am
Was Esmi of one of the Few?  I don't recall, but I would suspect she did.  So to have Dunyain kids, a world born mother would have to have the mark, which would be impossible to see for normal folks, but not necessarily for Khellus.  If they have the Mark, that probably means they have Nonmen traits, which means they could, probably, maybe have a Tall recessive trait.  Which explains the Whale Mothers.

Mimara's kid or kids are going to be awesome.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on July 25, 2016, 04:20:02 pm
Also, I've only the Westerosi or Wilshire to look to for really in-depth articulations - though, there was a thread on r/bakker too - about the biology of it all. What does happen to a broodmare? What happens to generations of broodmares? Doesn't Esmenet's composition affect matters at all? Certainly, Kellhus is much less likely to have a girl resembling the Whale-Mothers with Esmenet?

Did I answer the questions at all?

You inject a level of plausibility in a conversation that's been otherwise, seemingly universally, simplified as implausible ;). Thanks, friend.

This is why I invoked Wilshire's perspective.

Also, Wilshire, now that the book is out in the open we should check out your mind-map as the Survivor ruminates on the "twelve Germs," which are implied to be the twelve seed groups the Dunyain started with.

12 is, I believe, more than sufficient. I'd have to go back and check, but I think my original theory specified an absolute minimum of 8 genetically diverse individual families as genetic stock (ignoring alien genetics).

Excellent - I'll have to check the quote again for the number. Other than confirming what's still there and what's obviously not and thus must be purged from memory, I need a reread :).

EDIT: Because I quoted it for the other thread:

Quote from: TGO, p407
And yet he had found himself in the nursery without thought, scooping up this very babe without thought, the one that smelled of him, of Anasurimbor, the most promising of the Twelve Germs.

How many were the original Dunyain refugees? (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.0)

Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?

I don't understand enough (anything, really) about human biology except what gets you by with an anthropology minor but I imagine stacking continuous or near-continuous pregnancies over a hundred generations selects for some strange traits.

I don't know enough about genetics to know it is a problem. Do linguists have the same problem when hearing that semantic purity can allow you to speak in peoples dreams? Does the impossibility of that jar the same way?

Probably. They have a hate-read thread going on somewhere too ;).

Here's a question - why would whalemotherism emerge at all? I can't see why gigantism would be stimulated as an outcome by the conditions of Ishual, and I don't see why the Dunyain would want it, unless every Whale Mother was also meant to be an Octomom. Theories?

This is can buy. Remember that Kellhus was only able to get living offspring with Esmenet (all others were died and/or had stillborns or severe defects), so he must be aware that she carries some traits in common with Dunyain women. Dunyain pregnancies are apparently very difficult, so perhaps they bred form females that would be ... hardier ... In child birth.

Somewhat unrelated to your point, Titan, but using this a jump-point: this is something I genuinely don't understand regarding this conversation.

If Kellhus has bred with a Whale-Mother (which he obviously has), then they would have any range of defectives, including the representative Whale-Mothers and Dunyain-Fathers (as only the best can so wield the Legion to win-out in the Tracery ritual). And he and Moenghus the Elder can have defectives/abominations with the worldborn (which they did), Dunyain-Sons, but not Dunyain-Daughters... because why? How does that invalidate in-world mechanics, if the Dunyain-Daughters born to worldborn women are not Whale-Mothers? Is it assumed that the information based on by Kellhus' X chromosome somehow completely trumps Esmenet's X chromosome in combination?

[EDIT: For quote and link to Wilshire's thread.]
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2016, 01:04:36 am
Why would whalemotherism emerge?

Because thats what they selected for. My guess is that they were selecting for woman that could consistently bare children with minimal damage to mother and child.

This means they'd want them to grow children to term quickly, start at a young age, be breedable until near death, have minimal time between pregnancies, and have large birth canals making for easy delivery. The selection for this or any other set of hyper fertile criteria evidently selected for whalemotherism.

What does a woman look like when she is pregnant? Big. Everything gets bigger, they put on weight everywhere. Now imagine if a woman was pregnant 95% of the time her entire life. She'd never lose "the baby fat". That alone would likely make them huge. Adding in selective breeding and it's a pretty small step to whalemotherism, imo.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: EkyannusIII on August 03, 2016, 04:52:47 pm
Maybe Wilshire, but do the Dunyain want them preggers all the time?  That seems contrary to their very clear eugenic intentions. It also raises the question of how many people Ishual could support. Breeding like rabbits seems like something for the worldborn.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: mrganondorf on August 07, 2016, 04:03:46 am
I've been surprised that there's been so much attention for the whale-mothers.  I guess I just assumed that world-building terminates somewhere.  Kind of a world-building dilemma: i think i would be bored if Bakker dwelled on the point any more than he did, but others find the lack of explanation a strike against plausibility.  He's got to draw the line somewhere and not everybody's going to be pleased.

I guess Bakker could always say something belief making real in Earwa.  I wonder if any of the nameless ones where whale-motherish?

It was very pointed that The Fathering is described as having sarcophagi -> No-God connection?  Mimara's pov compares Dunyain and Consult, so maybe there's more there.  The comment about sadism in the abence of desire struck me as kind of like Shauriatus musing about committing atrocties in The False Sun.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Parsh on August 08, 2016, 03:34:32 am
Maybe Wilshire, but do the Dunyain want them preggers all the time?  That seems contrary to their very clear eugenic intentions. It also raises the question of how many people Ishual could support. Breeding like rabbits seems like something for the worldborn.

It seems likely that they have a ton of children but they ruthlessly cull out not only the defectives but the less good. Somebody has to have their facial muscles twitched into the display of an emotion. Otherwise, how will the little ubermenschen learn to dominate the worldborn? The more kids conceived, the more choices available.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 08, 2016, 05:17:06 pm
Maybe Wilshire, but do the Dunyain want them preggers all the time?  That seems contrary to their very clear eugenic intentions. It also raises the question of how many people Ishual could support. Breeding like rabbits seems like something for the worldborn.

It seems likely that they have a ton of children but they ruthlessly cull out not only the defectives but the less good. Somebody has to have their facial muscles twitched into the display of an emotion. Otherwise, how will the little ubermenschen learn to dominate the worldborn? The more kids conceived, the more choices available.

Yeah they'd want lots and lots of kids. Whether they know it or not, they are sifting through genetic material. Squeezing as many generations into as small a time period as possible would be crucial in any eugenics program that is selecting for some specific goal. Especially for humans and other populations that have a long gestation period. The longer that period, the more critical it is to shorten it as much as possible.

As mentioned, defective are killed off. I assume birth defects are pretty normal, and those kids are killed off. More are killed off in training up to the ultimate guillotine of the Thousand Thousand halls. Birth rate has nothing to do with sustained population.

As per population, the birthing chamber held less than 12 (right?), and that meeting to determine who would breed only had a bare handful, again less than 12. Its not unlikely to me that those were potentially ALL the adults in Ishual. Some number <20. Plus 0-2 living kids per mother at any one time, add another 10ish. So you get 30.

30 is not that many.

If survival rate/defect rate is higher, there might be an average of <1 kids per mother at any time.

In addition, whats the advantage of keeping around older dunyain when you have prodigal sons every generation?

You need a couple of guys around to teach, a couple of the most promising 20-somethings thinking and working in TTT, and those that are too old to think/work breeding. Once a son is identified that will likely surpass one of the elders, I'm sure they'd kill off the elder.

4 to 8 dunyain adults, maybe only a half dozen mothers and a few children. Could be as little as 10 - 15 people at once.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Titan on August 08, 2016, 05:24:01 pm
You need a couple of guys around to teach, a couple of the most promising 20-somethings thinking and working in TTT, and those that are too old to think/work breeding. Once a son is identified that will likely surpass one of the elders, I'm sure they'd kill off the elder.

4 to 8 dunyain adults, maybe only a half dozen mothers and a few children. Could be as little as 10 - 15 people at once.

That seems a bit on the low side, especially considering the massive amount of work done at Ishual. The tunneling of all those massive spaces, those massive structures. The population must have been bigger - even if they only kept the 'defectives' around as a work force.

I would multiply your population estimate by 10. At least.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Somnambulist on August 08, 2016, 05:32:05 pm
A few other points to indicate a larger populace.

1) Koringhus muses on 'those who left and the suicides' like he didn't know them.  Seems with a low population, everyone would know everyone.

2) The Dunyain wouldn't be so agreeable to exiling/giving up people (Moenghus and Kellhus) if there were that few of them.

3) They held off an army of sranc and nonmen in the TTH for years.  Even considering their superiority in just about every way, they would need many to achieve that.

4) Regarding the above point, I think Koringhus states that many lost their lives to the Quya (sorcery) before they went underground.

I would hazard hundreds rather than tens.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on August 08, 2016, 05:37:15 pm
You need a couple of guys around to teach, a couple of the most promising 20-somethings thinking and working in TTT, and those that are too old to think/work breeding. Once a son is identified that will likely surpass one of the elders, I'm sure they'd kill off the elder.

4 to 8 dunyain adults, maybe only a half dozen mothers and a few children. Could be as little as 10 - 15 people at once.

That seems a bit on the low side, especially considering the massive amount of work done at Ishual. The tunneling of all those massive spaces, those massive structures. The population must have been bigger - even if they only kept the 'defectives' around as a work force.

I would multiply your population estimate by 10. At least.

I really severely doubt that Ishual was built in any capacity by The Dunyain.  We've bandied the idea around (or at least, I have) that Ishual is an abandoned Nonman mansion.  From it's name being Ihrimsu to Kellhus remarking how the mansion at Kyudea looked so much like Ishual leads me to conclude there is  really no way the Dunyain made Ishual in any capacity, let alone dug out the massive complex that is The Thousand Thousand Halls.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 08, 2016, 06:01:39 pm
Just depends where you want to cast your doubts.

Since they apparently had minimal means to support a large population, until we get information otherwise I'd rather assume they don't have  one.

2000 years of digging is a long time, but you'd need quite the army, slaves or superhuman worker-bees, if 100% of Ishual was built by the dunyain. 10 or 10,000 would likely not be enough.

For sranc, Koringhus survived for years on his own caring a child. That miracle aside, assume the others are nearly as competent. A very small army of dunyain would be able to hold off an indefinite number of sranc for a long time. Its not about killing them, its about living. And live they did. A large population, again, needs sustenance and is harder to hide. Smaller is more likely to succeed in this case than larger.

"Like he didn't know them" - or like they were not worth remembering since they were failures. I doubt they kept close count of the defectives.

Per giving them up - the opposite to what you said. They need to keep the population small. Once a superior specimen is available to replace the older one, the older one would be sent out or killed. Kellhus replaced Moenghus, Koringhuis replaced Kellhus.

"Many lost their lives" is a relative term. If you've got 10 people, 4 is many (not to suggest only 6 went into the halls). If you've got 10million people then 10,000 is negligible. No way to use that for numbers.

They would never use defectives as a workforce, waste of resources. We know that only the best, most agile of limb and mind worked on the halls - it was a form of meditation and training, not just some monument building exercise like the pyramids.

Multiplying my number by 10 is too arbitrary. Why stop at 10? How about 10,000? 10 million?

In addition, we've never seen flashbacks or memories of any large gatherings. Everything has been left to a small handful. If there were hundreds of people milling around, harvesting food, excavating the Halls, etc. etc., I'd think that there would have been at least some descriptions to that effect. Ishual is not a huge place, all those people must have been somewhere. [edit: obvious answer: they were all in the halls always]


Now, if we start with the assumption that they had the means, whatever they were, to support a relatively large population, then hundreds is not unreasonable. Ishual wasn't particularly well hidden, a large population would go undetected just as well as a small one as long as no one was looking. If they had the resources, larger groups should be able to fight off the attackers. If there were enough of them and they never ran out of food, then they should have eventually killed all of the attackers. Clearly that wasn't the case, so there must have been few enough for them to lose.

In my mind, it makes sense for there to be less than 100 rather than more. Big groups of Dunyain doesn't jive with my psyche for some reason. Get too many of them together and you've got an unstoppable force, especially with home field advantage in the darkness of the halls.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on August 09, 2016, 10:40:43 pm
Well, didn't Bakker say in the Q&A that hea had scenes deleted that went into the day to day lives of the Dûnyain. Farming and sustenance and so on. My guess is there are a few 1000 Dûnyain that lived in Ishüal.

As for the TTH, doesn't Akka remark how different they are from Cil-Aujus? That everything was mathematical and no ornament at all. I think they were built by the Dûnyain and I think there are several quotes to back that up.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 13, 2016, 11:02:53 pm
SMBC helps explain whale mothers? http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/adam39s-rib

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 14, 2016, 11:22:16 am
The Dunyain would have to number in the hundreds at the least.  The room full of neuropunctured defectives not only requires producing enough defectives to match turnover but also enough food to feed them, the rest of the Dunyain, the unsorted children, and the Whale Mothers.  Ishual doesn't exactly have a year round growing climate and that's a lot of work.  Now Scott mentions that the Dunyain use labour to condition the body so I imagine that everyone works in the fields during the productive months and spends the winter hacking more passages in earth, but there needs to be a substantial agricultural labour force to support so many extra mouths.

I was a little disappointed in the Axotl Tank Whale Mothers (Dune's great, but its flawed as well as glorious and we've been there before), but this is partially ameliorated by Scott making clear the horror inherent in this concept.  Tongueless women strapped down with iron bands and condemned to an endless cycle to rape and pregnancy is pretty damn horrific.   
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 15, 2016, 04:31:37 am
I'm not sure agriculture needs to be that great, when you can eat acorns raw and other short cuts like that. If you look up various gardening sites, you'll find some people providing a lot of food from a very small amount of land.

But you know what would be evil fun - if the Dunyain, with their penchant for efficiency, have been eating sranc all along...

With the whale mothers, really perhaps 9 out of 10 (or some ratio) female babies are human normal and the whale mother mutant is rare. But the female babies that seem normal to us are...sent off to Happyberinth and play in the thousand, thousand ballpits. While the rarer whale mothers are kept.

I mean what if they looked relatively normal - it wouldn't matter. The dunyain males would still treat them horrifically. In a world of meaning it just seems, like a topos, that horrific treatment has taken it's toll on the victims bodies themselves as well, making them all the more victims of misogyny.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 15, 2016, 06:39:01 am
Gardening is part of agriculture.  It's small scale agriculture and it requires a considerable amount of labor when you add it all up.  The Dunyain have enough space around them and probably enough manpower, but those Whale Mothers are going to require a lot of calories.  Adults doing hard physical labor also require a lot of food and you're going to need to generate a surplus to cover the bad years and up north there are going to be bad years.  So yeah, they can do it but there has to generate enough extra food to cover them, the Whale Mothers, the kids, the rooms full of defectives, and the surplus while living in a region with a limited growing season.  So they need a good sized work force.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 16, 2016, 07:32:59 pm
I really hate the whale-mothers. Felt like beating a dead horse and stretched my suspension of disbelief too far. When I first read the previews I held out some hope that maybe Dunyain women just ended up that way once impregnated and it was some kind of weird second-puberty, but nah, seems like they're born incubators and lack Dunyain emotional stunting and conditioning for yet another example of "Hey don't women have it bad?"

This will be criticized for being more examples of Bakker's horrible misogyny but I think it's the opposite. It's some really extreme feminist message at this point.

In any case: Considering the whale mothers are so primed for reproduction that they become gravid, I think there's a deceptively high population somehow. You don't get women that look like naked mole rat queens unless yoou intend to have them survive producing dozens to hundreds of offspring. I suppose this could be offset by aggressive culling of inferior specimens, and possibly lots of crippling congenital deformities from inbreeding depression, but still. Guessing there are no less than 5,000 or so people in and around Ishual at any given time.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 17, 2016, 08:49:51 am

This will be criticized for being more examples of Bakker's horrible misogyny but I think it's the opposite. It's some really extreme feminist message at this point.

That's the impression I get from it as well.  Bakker's writing fantasy as if it was as nasty as real life, and in many ancient cultures being lower class and/or a woman was a life full of suck.  In the Prince of Nothing, all the terrible shit that happened with Esmenet filled me with outrage for the unfairness of it, not at the author but at the world that trapped her.  This is a series of books that has two different armies slaughter all their slaves, one of them taking slaves out into the wilderness knowing that they're going to have to kill them, and not one, but two world ending Apocalypses.   Bad things happen to powerless people and even power is no guarantee of safety.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on August 17, 2016, 03:04:50 pm
This will be criticized for being more examples of Bakker's horrible misogyny but I think it's the opposite. It's some really extreme feminist message at this point.

It's already happening, TS.

Basically everything I've learned of "feminist philosophy," I learned because of interacting with these texts while I happened to be able to take university courses in analogous philosophy credits.

For one, I know that I don't know enough (as much as Bakker) to analyze these texts properly in relation to that tradition but also that most of the discussion online misses that a lot of "feminist philosophy" is less about gendered prejudice - though that certainly is a specialized focus for some academics and writers - and more about questions of form, identity, and personal agency.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Parsh on August 17, 2016, 04:16:26 pm
I will admit that I was somewhat surprised that the Dunyain went in the direction Bakker took them. What I mean is, when a medieval-ish and/or tribal society is presented, and kind of equality between the sexes would be more surprising than not. So when we're presented a world in which rape and abuse of women is common, that doesn't strike me as "here's an author with misogynistic tendencies."

So we have the Dunyain. And for my part I've always said that Kellhus as their representative is a mixture of appealing and appalling. But with the way that they see through the arbitrary nature of culture, as the darkness that comes before, I thought we might see something like equality. But of course, there also hasn't really been any hint of that.

And, of course, we have it on the authority of the Judging Eye that, in this world at least, women are "less" than men. In other words, it's not "just" cultural. And I can see how that opens Bakker up to criticism: it's an artistic choice he's making, but why this choice?

But then, I'm an atheist. I don't believe that our world is one in which damnation, gods, etc are true concepts. Should I get all bent out of shape because this secondary world is one where those are objective facts? Earwa isn't our world, even if it sometimes rhymes with it. The world is a big what if: what if the world worked this way. And one of the deep things about this world is that even though it works differently (at least, I'm pretty sure it works differently) from our world, it's still true that, just as in our world, the exact nature of that reality is not exactly obvious or agreed upon by everyone.

Anyway, that's my $.02.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 17, 2016, 08:00:06 pm
I was reminded by the TV tropes page of the idea that the Dunyain are really beyond what is possible with human breeding. I think that idea helps contrast it, given the fantasy world is one where if you want something really, really badly then it's actually more likely to happen (or can happen even though it should be impossible).

So we're accepting that the Dunyain males can snatch arrows out of the air, which is, let's say an example of being beyond human breeding potential. But the other extreme for the whale mothers, we reject?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 01:13:10 am
I think Bakker perhaps goes even farther than the worst bronze age societies in the world in terms of treatment of women. Humans are human. Even in horribly restrictive societies like early Hebrew states or Assyria or what have you, I think we must presume men loved their wives, daughters, and sisters; for the most part. And I also think it's important to remember that no society on Earth has been a perfect expression of its codified social mores. There will always be dissenters, favoritism, and simple incompetence. In systems we'd find morally acceptable as well as in ones we consider abhorrent.


And, of course, we have it on the authority of the Judging Eye that, in this world at least, women are "less" than men. In other words, it's not "just" cultural. And I can see how that opens Bakker up to criticism: it's an artistic choice he's making, but why this choice?
Ahh...but are they less equal because the God of Gods deems them such...or because Mimara has been taught that they are such? I'm gonna keep pushing that crackpot.

So we're accepting that the Dunyain males can snatch arrows out of the air, which is, let's say an example of being beyond human breeding potential. But the other extreme for the whale mothers, we reject?
That stretched my disbelief too. But this need not be a double standard. When it keeps piling on, something has to be the final straw for some people. If we were introduced to the whale mothers first and Kellhus' super-hero levels of strength and speed second, I'd feel the same way, I think.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 18, 2016, 03:04:37 am
I don't think he goes any further, unfortunately. There are pick up artists who would protest vehemently that they don't hate women. But the thing is, they don't get that they don't hate women in the same way as a farmer doesn't hate his cattle. They can't see any other form of relation to women, so they think the whole 'hate' thing is misplaced in just that way. I'm inclined to think it's some kind of theory of mind retardation right at the genetic level.

And [controversial], I wonder if women picked for this gene expression at some point. I'm reminded of the lyrics "I don't care what you do to them,
just be good to me"

In stark nihilistic/darwinistic terms a male that damages other females but not the female that is you would mean your gene line would carry on while other females gene lines wouldn't, yeah?

But even ignoring the abhorance of that, all you have to do is lose the targeting for that female that isn't harmed and bang...you've picked for all females harmed.

Extra controversial - perhaps picking for 'He loves me and me alone' tends to make males that hold no love for women, to the point of destructive indifference?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 04:48:19 am
I don't think pick up artists are remotely comparable to historical (and in some cases, current) things like stoning a woman to death for "enticing" a man. Further, a lot of them are like that in their relations with any human. Just, y'know, not for sex.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 05:05:18 am
I do think going so hard in for the misogyny is a mistake.  Sure there were ancient societies as bad (the Assyrians managed to be worse than the Greeks and the Romans who managed to pretty much push women out of public life), but not all of them were, and its just so god damn relentless its almost numbing.  A little variety would help the rest of it keep the impact.  It's not like the Dunyain don't do other horrible shit.  Anyone filled with joy about how they treat their defectives?  No, I didn't think so.

As for the Judging Eye, it's pretty clear that the judgement of God is nothing to yearn for.  Absolute morality means that the circumstances of your life and your decisions have no impact on how your judge.  Your beliefs about right and wrong have no impact.  The best reasoning of the wisest moral philosophers is worthless.  The only standard that matters is that which is upheald by an inhuman tyrant who punishes those that break its arbitrary rules with eternal damnation irregardless of weather or not those rules are just or not or that its victims even knew the proper rule set.  The Nonmen and Inchoroi seek to avoid God for very good reasons.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 10:27:36 am
That's an important recurrent theme in the series. It's very blatant in particular in that segment at Mengedda when Saubon asks his groom "Is good simply good because God wills it?" or something along those lines. If it is, then the statement is indistinguishable for all practical purposes from "Might makes right".
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 10:39:24 am
That's an important recurrent theme in the series. It's very blatant in particular in that segment at Mengedda when Saubon asks his groom "Is good simply good because God wills it?" or something along those lines. If it is, then the statement is indistinguishable for all practical purposes from "Might makes right".

I agree absolutely.  The question is actually closer "Is something right just because the gods ask it?" and the answer, according to Kesult's memories of the Tusk is "no." 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2016, 01:13:02 pm
I was reminded by the TV tropes page of the idea that the Dunyain are really beyond what is possible with human breeding. I think that idea helps contrast it, given the fantasy world is one where if you want something really, really badly then it's actually more likely to happen (or can happen even though it should be impossible).

So we're accepting that the Dunyain males can snatch arrows out of the air, which is, let's say an example of being beyond human breeding potential. But the other extreme for the whale mothers, we reject?

Except I'd like to note that in this case, both your examples are well within the realm of possible. There are plenty of videos of people catching arrows - even mythbusters did an episode of it. And though the jury may still be out, AFAIK no one has bothered trying to refute any of my claims regarding the possibility of whale mothers in this thread.

Its really hard to say what's outside the bounds of human capabilities. Check out any history of sports that measures things. Running, swimming, and cycling are really obvious, but such things as gymnastics are also quite interesting here. You'll find some extraordinary examples of "impossible" being achieved on a yearly basis. We are pretty entirely unaware of what the human body is capable of, though every 'now' we think that we've done it - we've achieved the best a human get do.

Or, if you want to get into Eugenics and sports, look into Kenyan distance runners.

Saying we know whats possible within the bounds of a few millenia of strict eugenic breeding is, imo, a ridiculous conceit. There is no basis for that projection. You might be able to figure out something simple, like for example, how fast a person can throw a baseball. There is a fulcrum and a lever, some force calculations on how much strain a ligament can handle before it snaps, but even then you have to assume some kind of maximum body size for a person. A 7' person would have a faster max pitch speed compared to a 5' person. The more complex the subject, the less anyone can say what is and isn't possible.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 19, 2016, 12:29:29 am
The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.


On the subject of gods, it seems to me salvation isn't - to accept salvation is to accept the massive eternal torture of plenty of people as counterpart to such 'salvation'. To condone it. 'Salvation' is kind of like becoming a prince of nazi's. Except I wouldn't even say the nazi's are as bad as the god things of Earwa.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 04:46:09 am
The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.

I'd be willing to accept any small set of super human Dunyain abilities. I find them implausible merely in their sheer sum. I think you're kind of pigeonholing me here.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 19, 2016, 06:34:54 am
I'd say it's the logic doing the pigeonholing, not me.

But I've seen enough people cite 'logic' when they really just referenced their own preferences, so I'm not gunna say it's definitely not just my own preferences showing through. Could be.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 19, 2016, 05:39:24 pm
The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.


Ah, that makes sense.

The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.

I'd be willing to accept any small set of super human Dunyain abilities. I find them implausible merely in their sheer sum. I think you're kind of pigeonholing me here.

I find this very confusing. Why just a small set, and where do you draw the line? It seems like the harder task to come up with a logical rule for "this many things, but not that many", rather than accepting them all to start with and finding solace in the explanations that the book and/or others have put forth.

Have any of my justifications/explanations helped? If not, why? I'd like to think I help clarify things for people, but if I'm way off that mark I'd like to know why not, and how I might improve.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 05:46:15 pm
I should probably talk about this with someone I know that actually knows a ton about selective breeding in particular. I'm in biology but that's not really my training. Things aren't always intuitive or even logical in the real world.

The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.


Ah, that makes sense.

The point is anyone who both says whale mothers are impossible but that the dunyain arrow catching/dodging is entirely possible, there's a conflict in their ideas.

For peeps who say both are possible, there is no conflict.

I'd be willing to accept any small set of super human Dunyain abilities. I find them implausible merely in their sheer sum. I think you're kind of pigeonholing me here.

I find this very confusing. Why just a small set, and where do you draw the line? It seems like the harder task to come up with a logical rule for "this many things, but not that many", rather than accepting them all to start with and finding solace in the explanations that the book and/or others have put forth.

Have any of my justifications/explanations helped? If not, why? I'd like to think I help clarify things for people, but if I'm way off that mark I'd like to know why not, and how I might improve.
Where to draw the line is arbitrary but breeding for even one or two traits can be extremely time consuming, much less a wide variety at once that all need to appear in the same organism and may even be mutually exclusive. There's very few genes that actually follow Mendelian inheritance patterns. So far we've seen denser bones, stronger muscles, faster reflexes, keener eyesight, near perfect recall, enhanced hearing, enhanced smell, enhanced kinesthetic sense and proprioception, increased ability to analyze faces (something incredibly difficult already that utilize a ton of human wetware), extremely exaggerated primary and secondary sexual characteristics exclusive to the female sex (at least some of which completely reverse the human female trend to neoteny) increased fertility and the massive internal changes needed to support it, and an entirely novel (though cultivated in part by training) mode of cognition.

It's too much for me to believe in a mere two thousand years with an extremely small and likely homogeneous starting population.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 19, 2016, 06:28:30 pm
I think we keep skipping how in Earwa the more you want something the more likely it will happen. The time period doesn't really matter, it's how much they wanted it over time. Once we're freed up from merely 'what is possible' to what we want to be possible is possible (if we want it hard enough), what then?

I mean, it's kind of like accepting magic when it does fireballs out of thin air, but when it casts a disfiguring spell on women it's...not accepted?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 19, 2016, 07:15:12 pm
Yeah Callan I definitely get that, but I'm trying to avoid that path since often those that are thinking along the lines of The Sharmat simply ignore that line of reasoning entirely - so I'm trying to stay on their ground here.

I think I mentioned upthread at the end of one of my bigger posts that everything I said was moot based on nearly that exact same reasoning. Earwa's metaphysics entire screw with any hardline interpretation of what is/isn't possible for a person based on "how it works IRL".

But I've been trying to ignore that and show those who choose to believe Earwa works exactly like Earth does, or that somehow only certain parts of Earwa work just like Earth and not other parts, that most of what is said to be 'impossible IRL' is actually not only possible, but in many cases easy to explain.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 19, 2016, 07:59:15 pm
Where to draw the line is arbitrary but breeding for even one or two traits can be extremely time consuming
How time consuming? 2000 years is a long time. We can speciate flys, though I'm not sure what the timeline is. Without any human studies of strict eugenics, what is the basis for possible/impossible on this timescale?

, much less a wide variety at once that all need to appear in the same organism and may even be mutually exclusive.
They also might just as easily be all selected for at once. Most of what you mention below are phenotypes that seem to run together.  Sure maybe not, but either way its just an assumption that's plucked from the ether.

There's very few genes that actually follow Mendelian inheritance patterns. So far we've seen denser bones, stronger muscles, faster reflexes, keener eyesight, near perfect recall, enhanced hearing, enhanced smell, enhanced kinesthetic sense and proprioception, increased ability to analyze faces (something incredibly difficult already that utilize a ton of human wetware), extremely exaggerated primary and secondary sexual characteristics exclusive to the female sex (at least some of which completely reverse the human female trend to neoteny) increased fertility and the massive internal changes needed to support it, and an entirely novel (though cultivated in part by training) mode of cognition.


I noticed you forgot to mention increased occurrence of the ability to see the Onta. How are you factoring in that trait, which we know must be heritable based on the Inchoroi ability to graft it into their genome.

How about nonman DNA in the genome? We know humans are neanderthal DNA, so such a thing is not unprecedented, and in fact likely vital to the survival of our species.

It's too much for me to believe in a mere two thousand years with an extremely small and likely homogeneous starting population.
Its actually extraordinarily unlikely that they started with a homogenous population, otherwise inbreeding would have stamped them out long ago. They must have been very genetically diverse to begin with to have any chance at all.

We do all kinds of crazy stuff by subjecting test animals to extreme environments. We've been able to speciate fruit flys by splitting a group and putting one in a hot environment and the other in cold. We've seen bacteria assimilate cyanide into their genome when forced with no alternative.

We have ethics, so we haven't any experiments to show how extreme eugenics might affect a base population of more complex creatures, but by extension, people could accomplish in their own population similar results over longer periods of time. So a few decades to speciate flys, who not two millennia to nearly speciate humans?

denser bones, stronger muscles, faster reflexes
These don't have to be genotype changes.
You get denser bones by hitting hard stuff all the time. See - martial arts.
Stronger muscles and reflexes are the same - simply training.
Don't you think if you took an extraordinary athlete from today, and threw him into the first olympic games, that people would perceive him as a god?
Michael Phelps makes Mark Spitz look like a JV player.
Usain Bolt would make Jesse Owens look like he was standing still. (their best times are over 1 second apart in a race that lasts ~10 seconds. That's 10%, or 10 meters.)
Are the achievements of the Dunyain any more miraculous?

keener eyesight,  enhanced hearing, enhanced smell, enhanced kinesthetic sense
These are hard to explain. I think you need eugenics for this. But how many generation? Is there anyway to estimate that?
Still though, phenotypic changes. Throw a kid into a dark labyrinth, his eyesight will underdeveloped and and his other senses hyper-develop.

 
faster reflexes ... proprioception... near perfect recall ... an entirely novel (though cultivated in part by training) mode of cognition.
These are all kind of the same thing. Increased cognitive ability would lead the the perceived quicking of reflexes, proprioception, and perfect recall. Yes, the dunyain's cognitive abilities are beyond what we have seen in humans. One might even say fantasy-esque.

Subjecting children to the kinds of extreme rigours that the dunyain do would likely lead to many of their traits as adults, including cognition. You can throw out genetics almost entirely for most of what we see. Adding in eugenics only heightens the odds that there is going to be some huge disparities between what is IRL and what we seen in the Dunyain.

So the big question: If it's possible, or conceivable in the very least, for parts of what are happening to the Dunyain to happen IRL, at what point do you factor in the idea that it just isn't Earth? Clearly the Dunyain are a fantastical breed of superhuman mutants in a fantasy world that don't exist IRL, but this isn't real life.

Why, if this or that combination of dunyain traits are possible, can't the rest be infused with a bit of fantasy? Why doesn't magic and subjective reality, alien non-human interbreeding and space farring alien, gods and demons, simply bridge that gap between "some of this can happen in real life" and "wow this is just too much to be real on Earth"?


Where to draw the line is arbitrary
But how and why did you draw it where you did, and why not choose to draw it somewhere else if it is in fact arbitrary?
Why not arbitrarily pick a line that leads to further enjoyment of the book?
Sure, you could pick to draw that line at magic and aliens and just throw the book in the fire, but you didn't. I'm asking about the why rather than the fact itself.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: sohorat on August 19, 2016, 08:49:16 pm
Despite the fantastic elements of Earwa, Bakker is clearly obsessed with "rigor" with respect to his worldbuilding - however, that "rigor" seems to focus more on internal consistency than strict analogues to reality as we know it in our universe. 

Some of the metaphysical (quasi-physical?) elements of Earwa just seem intended to instantiate a "Scriptural" model of the universe (e.g., sorcerers getting "salted" by Chorae, which I think Bakker has explicitly admitted).

Clearly, the Whale Mothers jangles the nerves of many readers, while other elements likely bother some more than others, depending on each reader's expertise with respect to material reality. For example, the idea that Nonmen can't parse two-dimensional images (TJE) seems completely absurd to me, but I've never read any other complaints.  And there's a payoff - the alien ornamentation of the Mansions requires it, to a degree. 

The explanation for why Nonmen don't commit suicide - that they effectively can't - struck me similarly as a bit of a post facto "whoops" when Bakker wanted to populate Ishteribinth with ghouls at various stages of dementia (Dolour, then the Gloom). But there's a payoff, there, too, given the centrality of Damnation to the entire narrative structure.

I suppose one could try to force analogies between the "singing" of Quyan Erratics to relatively spared musical memory in Alzheimer's patients - but is it really necessary?  I'm more than willing to suspend disbelief regarding the physical instantiation of memory in human brains if that means Achamian gets to go Gnostic Wracu-hunting with Cleric.

Nevertheless, Bakker does seem at pains to justify many if not all of these fantastic elements in ways that are satisfying to him, based on what he knows. But, as he would likely admit, he is himself blind to the Earwan divergences from the features of material reality he knows comparatively little about, and it's those storey elements that are going to bother people who know most about them IRL. 

I'm guessing that there are features about the map of Earwa that annoy geologists (but I'm not a geologist/geographer, so I have not idea what those might be). 

Somewhere, a structural engineer who likes dark fantasy is howling about the Medial Screw, or the Viritic Well, or the Cthonic Manse, and on and on.

That having been said, the Anasurimbor "Germ" is thought to contain Nonmen genetics (Rape of Omindalea), so I assumed that the Whale Mothers might be Wide in much the same way that Nonmen Heroes are Tall, and that Nonmen genetics support greater epigenetic lability.  Or whatever.

My own problem with the Whale Mothers was that I failed to see the point - what purpose did they serve, if the Dunyain children looked like the "worldborn", instead of this:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/2/24/Talosians_3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081206044328&path-prefix=en

Were the Dunyain born in litters? 

It seems like the real issue is that readers suspend disbelief in the service of their own interests, and if those aren't served, they balk.

"So, you want to tell me about super-badass Thought-Dancer Monks? SOLD."

"Wait, that dude just blew up that building by yelling at it? NICE."

"Ok, there's these women...shackled...and - did you just say shitting dogs?  Um, NOPE." 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: JRControl on August 19, 2016, 10:09:03 pm
You always have to give way for the rule of cool. TSA has both style and substance.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: citizensnips on August 20, 2016, 05:02:24 pm
I can tell you where I draw the line. Snatch arrows from mid-air, OK. But that scene in one of the first books where Kel is fighting skin spies in a darkened basement and he gets them to rush into one corner by throwing his voice there? Not feeling it, because a) that's not really how "throwing your voice" works and b ) are parlor tricks a normal part of Dunyain conditioning?

Also, how the heck did Kel know what a shark even is?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 21, 2016, 08:08:16 am
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 21, 2016, 08:58:35 am
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.


Bred for intellect.  And breasts.  ;)  You don't have to be a Dunyain to figure out the humanoid with breasts is female.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 21, 2016, 09:26:37 am
It's obvious that women have cartilage for bones, silly!

Besides, who said he 'recognised' women when he got out? May have just worked it out on the fly like he worked out languages in three days (remember how he was stuck with the women's version of the Slycvendi language since that's all he was exposed to? But he didn't really recognise that...)

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Frail on August 22, 2016, 02:11:22 am
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
In the first book Kellhus gazes at the mountain slopes during training, and he finds them comparable to a womans back. So he does know the feminine form from somewhere. I always thought that the descendants from the boy-who-lived from Ishual's prologue were the people in the defacing room, but after TGO it is probably more likely the ones chained and unmasked are other Dunyain.

I also dont have an issue with the whale mothers, I dont know why they have been simplified to this on the forums. I think it is a comparison told through Mimara when she was very young, so these are not two hundred foot abominations, but more along the lines of the fat lady from Slither.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 22, 2016, 04:28:04 am
Quote
In the first book Kellhus gazes at the mountain slopes during training, and he finds them comparable to a womans back.
It'd be funny if the mountain was just weird as fuck in outline - it's just reader projection that made it actually comparable to a human back.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 22, 2016, 02:32:52 pm
Great post, sohorat.

My own problem with the Whale Mothers was that I failed to see the point - what purpose did they serve, if the Dunyain children looked like the "worldborn"

Were the Dunyain born in litters? 

I think the primary purpose of the Whale Mothers was to once again show that the Dunyain are monsters. The reader spends a lot of time being seduced by Kellhus, its scenes like this that remind us that he and the Dunyain are barely human.

I've  detailed elsewhere what potential purpose they might served in that form, baring children in litters is another good idea - though that'll bring another slew of criticisms I think.

In the end I think its way beyond the point - its largely a plot device to show some amount of  'objectively evil/damned'.

It seems like the real issue is that readers suspend disbelief in the service of their own interests, and if those aren't served, they balk.

"So, you want to tell me about super-badass Thought-Dancer Monks? SOLD."

"Wait, that dude just blew up that building by yelling at it? NICE."

"Ok, there's these women...shackled...and - did you just say shitting dogs?  Um, NOPE." 
A thousand times yes.

I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
I'm disappointed :( . Why isn't there a point? The entire point is having a conversation, the only way to make it pointless is to end it mid-way through.



I can tell you where I draw the line. Snatch arrows from mid-air, OK. But that scene in one of the first books where Kel is fighting skin spies in a darkened basement and he gets them to rush into one corner by throwing his voice there? Not feeling it, because a) that's not really how "throwing your voice" works and b ) are parlor tricks a normal part of Dunyain conditioning?

Also, how the heck did Kel know what a shark even is?
lol yeah, in retrospect that is ridiculous. I think its in TWP, btw.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Mog Kellhus on August 22, 2016, 02:44:07 pm
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 22, 2016, 03:03:12 pm
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!
I think most everyone wants a Silmarillion of lost TSA tales.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Frail on August 22, 2016, 04:59:45 pm
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!
I loved that moment, how we catch up with Kellhus in medias res fighting/fleeing from Sranc with his little-dunyain. Its one of the great gem's from the first book, so much to read into this paragraph.

 He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.

While we dont need to see this event, I too would love reading a full description, perhaps even from a civilian's POV in Atrithau. I figured Kellhus probably got as many followers as he could, enough to cross Suskara, but would not want to take full reign of Atrithau, as that would be a distraction, and a potential threat for Ishual's hidden location. I don't remember the second time he talks about Atrithau, but he does mention it later, something along the lines of "the ones who distrusted the most, became his most fervent followers."
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Somnambulist on August 22, 2016, 05:44:16 pm
Quote
He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.

That's always chilled me, especially the bold.  Did Kellhus actually use children for some nefarious purpose(s), or is it saying merely that he could have?  The implications are horrible, and would have set readers against him from the beginning if that were the case.  It also speaks a lot to the attitudes of the people in Atrithau, that a certain number of them would have surrendered their children to him had he asked, especially after a (probably) relatively short stay there.  Desperate and/or naive, if they were anything like Leweth, I guess.  Atrithau is definitely one of those bits of the story that would be interesting to find out about at some point.  Digressing.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2016, 07:44:25 pm
On topic, Sharmat's post in another thread made me think that Whale-Mothers and Dunyain-Fathers to be are probably equally rare occurrences in high birth rates, among a whole slew of abominations, defectives, and mules.

Off topic, I want to say there's a quote somewhere suggesting that Bakker had written some of Kellhus' time in Atrithau already...
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 22, 2016, 07:47:01 pm
Great post, sohorat.

My own problem with the Whale Mothers was that I failed to see the point - what purpose did they serve, if the Dunyain children looked like the "worldborn"

Were the Dunyain born in litters? 

I think the primary purpose of the Whale Mothers was to once again show that the Dunyain are monsters. The reader spends a lot of time being seduced by Kellhus, its scenes like this that remind us that he and the Dunyain are barely human.
This might explain the disconnect in part. I didn't need any convincing. I already believed the Dunyain, including Kellhus, are monsters.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 22, 2016, 07:55:32 pm
I'm disappointed :( . Why isn't there a point? The entire point is having a conversation, the only way to make it pointless is to end it mid-way through.
Because ultimately neither of us actually know the answer to the questions, it's arbitrary, and therefore is impossible for one of us to convince the other.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on August 22, 2016, 10:48:27 pm
I really severely doubt that Ishual was built in any capacity by The Dunyain.  We've bandied the idea around (or at least, I have) that Ishual is an abandoned Nonman mansion.  From it's name being Ihrimsu to Kellhus remarking how the mansion at Kyudea looked so much like Ishual leads me to conclude there is  really no way the Dunyain made Ishual in any capacity, let alone dug out the massive complex that is The Thousand Thousand Halls.

To throw a few questions out there:
1- Do we know the location of the ruins of the Nonman mansion of Siöl, since it is mentioned so frequently? Could Ishual have been built on to of it, assuming the theory that Ishual was built on top of a Nonman mansion?

2- It's probably a stretch, but by reading the words aloud, you could pronounce Ishual and Siöl in a similar way (I-Shial or I-Shiöl vs Shial or Shiöl). I have a strong liking for philology and searching for etymological development of words and pronunciation, so this popped up. Any thoughts?

3- Do we know anything about the original people calling themselves the Dunyain, besides the very first part in TDTCB? How did they know how to get to Ishual, since it was a secret refuge/location created by Anasurimbor Kelmomas?

And a jump-in question since Kyudea is mentioned:
I remember a passage in TTT about a war between the twin cities of Shimeh and Kyudea for control of Amoteu, where Kyudea is destroyed and laid to ruin. This looks like a Samarmas/Kelmomas (or a 0 and 1) parallel to me. How do twins tie into the development of the Dunyain?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: EkyannusIII on August 22, 2016, 11:33:16 pm
I really hate the whale-mothers. Felt like beating a dead horse and stretched my suspension of disbelief too far. When I first read the previews I held out some hope that maybe Dunyain women just ended up that way once impregnated and it was some kind of weird second-puberty, but nah, seems like they're born incubators and lack Dunyain emotional stunting and conditioning for yet another example of "Hey don't women have it bad?"

I found it disagreeable from a taste standpoint as well, but it is also flawed in that it is self-defeating and ultimately less interesting than the alternative.  Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on August 23, 2016, 01:21:34 am
Siol is in the northeastern part of Earwa, on the border with Eanna. This is where the Breaking of the Gates occurred. I've always thought Ishual was part of an old Nonman Mansion, not so sure anymore. Akka and Mimara remark how different it is to Cil-Aujus. No ornamentation, devoid of art, strictly mathematical and precise. Which leads me to believe the Dunyâin did indeed build the Thousand Thousand Halls. Celmommas built Ishual proper, probably with the help of Nonmen, I'm sure. But, when hiding from the World, there is only one way to go....down. And, undoubtedly it fit with their goals to weed out the weak and aid in training.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on August 23, 2016, 02:24:25 am
He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.
First slog.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on August 23, 2016, 06:20:07 am
Siol is in the northeastern part of Earwa, on the border with Eanna. This is where the Breaking of the Gates occurred. I've always thought Ishual was part of an old Nonman Mansion, not so sure anymore. Akka and Mimara remark how different it is to Cil-Aujus. No ornamentation, devoid of art, strictly mathematical and precise. Which leads me to believe the Dunyâin did indeed build the Thousand Thousand Halls. Celmommas built Ishual proper, probably with the help of Nonmen, I'm sure. But, when hiding from the World, there is only one way to go....down. And, undoubtedly it fit with their goals to weed out the weak and aid in training.

Good to know that, although it doesn't explain how the Dunyain knew there was a safe haven there. To decide to flee there, they may either have been privy to King Kel's information, or have knowledge of a prior settlement... Or have been extremely lucky, but that would be disappointing.

The difference was mainly explained in how Cil-Aujas is much more decorated whereas Ishual was bare. Removal of all non-relevant pieces/parts from the halls would be a Dunyain approach of cleansing/conditioning of the ground. It would also be an illustration of how the Dunyain shed a lot of their human traits through the breeding program.
On the other hand the TTH could also simply be a Dunyain reproduction of a Nonman mansion.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on August 23, 2016, 07:46:18 am
"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on August 23, 2016, 09:20:12 am
"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.

If they got their hands on the scroll, that would have some interesting implications.
Forks within forks within forks :)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 23, 2016, 11:03:55 am
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both. 
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 23, 2016, 12:20:58 pm
... All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 
That post was probably the best rebuttal of the whale-mother's I've seen.

The only shortfalls is that its not as cognitively jarring imo, and probably not as easily distilled into a quick paragraph - at least not in a way that could elicit the feels the same way that the whale mothers do/did.

"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.

If they got their hands on the scroll, that would have some interesting implications.
Forks within forks within forks :)
lol
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on August 23, 2016, 02:31:23 pm
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on August 23, 2016, 02:47:08 pm
 
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
Fixed initial linkage.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on August 23, 2016, 03:20:41 pm
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
Fixed initial linkage.

Thank you, Wilshire.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 12:28:45 am
3- Do we know anything about the original people calling themselves the Dunyain, besides the very first part in TDTCB? How did they know how to get to Ishual, since it was a secret refuge/location created by Anasurimbor Kelmomas?

Bakker actually addressed this a little on ZTS (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/54):

Quote from: Bakker, July 2004
Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.

... All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

That post was probably the best rebuttal of the whale-mother's I've seen.

While I do like Ekyannus' thoughts, it still ignores that there were probably a whole range of defectives (not the "ideal" Whale-Mother or Dunyain-Father) who served a variety of purposes besides face-training - implying other types of defective females.

Not anyone here, per say, but the more this is discussed, the more I wonder why the cognitive average funneled towards outrage and incredulity.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 05:38:05 am
Well for one I'm pretty sure Bakker was going for outrage.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on September 01, 2016, 06:27:52 am
Thanks, Madness. I'm still curious as to how they got to Ishual though, it being a secret place :). I wonder if that question is ever going to be answered. It's of course possible they followed the tracks left by the royal escape party, and that it has no meaning whatsoever.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 02:22:00 pm
Well for one I'm pretty sure Bakker was going for outrage.

I'm thick-headed, TS. Why is it so obviously outrageous? How do we qualify his writing in terms of having done something successfully or not?

Thanks, Madness.

Lol - at least half of my time spent here is quoting various sources ;).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on September 01, 2016, 04:01:20 pm
I definitely agree that Bakker's goal was outrage here. I interpreted this scene's point as showing why the Dunyain are Evil. You can't convince the reader of that type of thing without outrage.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on September 01, 2016, 05:15:01 pm
I actually read quite some objective factual and clinical statements in the first description of the rooms.
Akka is in the dark here. It's only through Mimara's Judging Eye that we get the outrage. But that is again tempered by the POV of the Survivor.
I was puzzled by how Bakker achieved that. Maybe the reread will change the experience, but this was how I experienced it the first time.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on September 01, 2016, 06:46:59 pm
Not anyone here, per say, but the more this is discussed, the more I wonder why the cognitive average funneled towards outrage and incredulity.
Or perhaps more exactly, why believability suddenly dropped out and was replaced by outrage and incredulity? For example, some people have suggested that in the Matrix the machines could have just used cows. But no one found it unbelievable that the machines used humans, or if they did they figured ways it could make sense.

It seems unlikely (unbelievable), but if instead the dunyain went by consensual sex, I wonder how unbelievable the whale mothers would be then? I suspect they would be less unbelievable for folk.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 09:09:05 pm
Plenty of people thought the explanation for the Matrix was silly and brought it up. I think you're attacking a strawman here.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on September 02, 2016, 12:50:38 am
Yeah, but silly doesn't mean unbelievable. That's why thermodynamics defying magic still gets believed. Probably because it's cool.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on September 02, 2016, 08:19:01 am
It was unbelievable I just chose to ignore it for the rest of the story. People have different thresholds for how much of this they can do and why. I will never praise the choice (apparently foisted upon them by the studio) to use the human battery approach in the Matrix and when it comes up I will criticize it. Unless something changes, the same is true of the Whale Mothers.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on September 03, 2016, 10:49:11 am
Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Dunyain children don't necessarily have the same needs as human children, so i don't see why they would have to have their mothers beside them while growing up.

Besides, Dunyain exist in order to apply the principle of the Logos, so any emotional attachment that can arise by the connection between parent and sibling is totally unwanted. The same goes for conditioning their females for reproduction, it would make them victims to the darkness that comes before and thus undesirable in their society.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:53:29 am
Well for one I'm pretty sure Bakker was going for outrage.

Of course, I'm surprised Vox or Hate haven't had an online thesis about it yet.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on September 15, 2016, 07:41:12 am
Hate got her anonymity outed and was in damage control last I heard.

Vox *brrrr* probably doesn't have his fur rubbed the wrong way by it.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 15, 2016, 02:29:05 pm
Well for one I'm pretty sure Bakker was going for outrage.

Of course, I'm surprised Vox or Hate haven't had an online thesis about it yet.

Hate got her anonymity outed and was in damage control last I heard.

Vox *brrrr* probably doesn't have his fur rubbed the wrong way by it.

What Callan said. Also, Vox is too busy for the likes of Bakker these days, leading the Rabid Puppies, and now dealing with man of Chuck Tingle.

Lol. Life.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: The Sharmat on September 15, 2016, 09:26:57 pm
I for one am grateful to the creators of DARPA net for birthing the internet and showing us all how much we truly hate one another.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 16, 2016, 12:07:38 am
I for one am grateful to the creators of DARPA net for birthing the internet and showing us all how much we truly hate one another.

Its all love, bruh! Seriously though, it surprising how much hate there truly is in this world. It actually makes me sick to my stomach.

ETA: which makes me think.....who is the hater that keeps giving me damnation points on my Karma? Every time I click on here I have another. Damn, who have I pissed off so badly? Come out and tell me who you are, show me your hate! I will make you love!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on September 16, 2016, 01:32:57 am
I for one am grateful to the creators of DARPA net for birthing the internet and showing us all how much we truly hate one another.

It's the cognitive pollutions, I tells ya! (lol, prolly is)

Also the damnation button is bad, IMO
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2016, 01:40:14 am
*brrrr*

lmao.

Ooo, say it again.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 16, 2016, 02:22:47 am
Also the damnation button is bad, IMO

Yea, because I don't like someone's opinion or don't agree with them, I slap a negative point to their Karma? I've never really used it except when I see and excellent post. I've never gave damnation because I don't agree with someone, opinions are like assholes, we all have one! To me it can be abused and I don't understand how in two years i might of had 1 damnation point and in the last 2-3 weeks I've collected 12 of them...? It tells me someone doesn't like me and is being very childish about it, instead of engaging me in conversation. Oh well, hide behind your Karma button.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2016, 07:49:28 pm
Don't worry about it MSJ. Most of the viewers are lurkers to begin with, could be any one person or lots of different people. No ones tracking it, and some people give damnation as a positive... so the whole system is doubly useless.

I didn't have any damnation karma till this year, then suddenly they all showed up at once. It happens.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 16, 2016, 08:48:17 pm
Don't worry about it MSJ. Most of the viewers are lurkers to begin with, could be any one person or lots of different people. No ones tracking it, and some people give damnation as a positive... so the whole system is doubly useless.

I didn't have any damnation karma till this year, then suddenly they all showed up at once. It happens.

No, I'm not worried or sad or upset over. It just I would rather someone engage me then simply marking my post as negative. Its cheap. If something is wrong with a post of mine correct me, or let's have some discourse on the issue at hand.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Callan S. on September 18, 2016, 11:06:34 am
I think it shows how readily stones are cast

Also track how it goes up if you question it going up. It's something that doesn't like self reflection. Doesn't like light cast into its corner.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 28, 2016, 03:14:10 pm
Plus - some people here no doubt believe Damnation to be a good thing...

Lol - no stress, MSJ. The whole karma system was flawed to begin with. It's simply an indication of which Gods we'll feed with our lives ;).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 28, 2016, 07:51:08 pm
Plus - some people here no doubt believe Damnation to be a good thing...

Lol - no stress, MSJ. The whole karma system was flawed to begin with. It's simply an indication of which Gods we'll feed with our lives ;).


But, I don't want to be munched on for eternity. :(

No, it's like someone was just doing it to be childish. And since I said something it mysteriously stops. So, I'd just rather, you know, discuss something than someone basically say "You so suck dude, I am giving you damnation on every post you write!" like do you wanna discuss the damn books or be a judge?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 29, 2016, 01:45:06 pm
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on September 29, 2016, 03:04:47 pm
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.

Oblivion, here I come!
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on September 29, 2016, 03:52:41 pm
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.

Such an epic moment when Aurang says that  :D
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on September 29, 2016, 03:55:06 pm
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.

Such an epic moment when Aurang says that  :D

It's usually pretty epic whenever Aurang says anything.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on September 29, 2016, 04:09:56 pm
Touché!
Although the passage stands out more than other scenes involving him.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on September 29, 2016, 04:55:32 pm
Touché!
Although the passage stands out more than other scenes involving him.

Haha, I was being pedantic.  Nothing beats his soliloquy/résumé in TTT, but it's a pretty sure thing that when Aurang appears, you are in for a good time.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 29, 2016, 09:44:26 pm
Which makes me think that I hope Bakker has sparringly let us have those great interactions with Aurang, to have him have a huge part in TUC. Which I gotta believe is the case. Also, I know maybe we've seen Aurax in TWP epilogue, but I really, really hope he makes an appearance. It would be a travesty if we never got to meet him. The lack of the Consult in TGO, leads me to believe we'll see a plethora of them in TUC. Aurang leading the way with his dialogue, I think we've gotten some of the most reliable information.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 29, 2016, 10:10:44 pm
Karma be gone. The days are new, Chigra.

Seriously, Madness I hope you didnt do away with Karma on account of me. I was only trying to get whoever was doing it to discuss their issues regarding me and my posts. I'm open to criticism, I just like to know what the criticism is.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on September 30, 2016, 12:54:42 am
I remember... remember... being hesitant about the thing when we first got it. It's over, we can't bring back whatever karma we had. Whichever Gods wished to munch us will have to find new ways to judge our karma.

8)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: MSJ on September 30, 2016, 02:59:58 am
I remember... remember... being hesitant about the thing when we first got it. It's over, we can't bring back whatever karma we had. Whichever Gods wished to munch us will have to find new ways to judge our karma.

8)

Gods? Or, posters not wiling to engage? I'll go with the latter. I truly never liked it, I just didn't want to be the reason you took it away. Now instead of simply giving negative Karma, disgruntled posters will have to interact and discuss what they don't like about a post. As it should be. Hey, don't be afraid. I say silly shit all the time, feel few to call me out and correct me...a little discourse goes a long way, imho.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Yellow on September 30, 2016, 09:59:26 am
Meh. People can down vote me as much as they like, but it doesn't make me any less FUCKING AWESOME.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on September 30, 2016, 10:19:23 am
Meh. People can down vote me as much as they like, but it doesn't make me any less FUCKING AWESOME.

“Who will take the downvote to my heart?”
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Uncle Holy on February 21, 2017, 10:12:57 pm
I really hate the whale-mothers. Felt like beating a dead horse and stretched my suspension of disbelief too far. When I first read the previews I held out some hope that maybe Dunyain women just ended up that way once impregnated and it was some kind of weird second-puberty, but nah, seems like they're born incubators and lack Dunyain emotional stunting and conditioning for yet another example of "Hey don't women have it bad?"

I found it disagreeable from a taste standpoint as well, but it is also flawed in that it is self-defeating and ultimately less interesting than the alternative.  Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

You presume the early Dunyain were sophisticated enough for this technique. And that the Whale Mothers were always as they are now. Like Bakker said, they were a young sect before the First Apocalypse. The simplest solution to them at first would've just been to put them all in one room and turn them into mere wombs. That could certainly have been the Shortest Path, as far as those primitive Dunyain could see, for getting rid of distractions. Perhaps later as the Study progressed, they discovered eugenics and thought "Cool! Now we can design our kids to be even bigger monsters than we are!". But there was no real need to change things so drastically as to create a new sub-gender, when the current process worked well enough. Why introduce some new factor that could potentially slow or de-rail the Study?
I'm not sure what maternal care you're referring to but feeding the babies is something some Pragma could have been assigned. No need for that pesky attachment babies form with their mothers. Bakker's way is more plausible, I think.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Francis Buck on March 04, 2017, 12:22:35 am
CRACKPOT:

The Ark, which was apparently once a living thing in-and-of itself, is basically a super Tekne version of a Whale Mother, one that births Inchoroi instead of Dunyain.

It's interesting to note also, that the Consult refers to ancient Inchoroi as the Old Fathers, while the ancient Dunyain women are referred to as the First Mothers. Very Lovecraftian, cosmic horror sort of thing there.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2017, 03:32:50 am
CRACKPOT:

The Ark, which was apparently once a living thing in-and-of itself, is basically a super Tekne version of a Whale Mother, one that births Inchoroi instead of Dunyain.

It's interesting to note also, that the Consult refers to ancient Inchoroi as the Old Fathers, while the ancient Dunyain women are referred to as the First Mothers. Very Lovecraftian, cosmic horror sort of thing there.

FB YOU ARE SO COOL I LIKE YOU
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: gtownwr on May 16, 2017, 02:02:37 pm
I didn't like the Whale-Mothers, but mainly because it didn't seem original.  It has been noted many times how they are basically just A-tanks and I was hoping for something that was less obviously influenced by another work.  Also, for reasons I can't fully explain, it felt like a cop out to me.  It didn't feel like the shortest path for the Dunyain, just the shortest path for Bakker to make the Dunyain seem more evil.  But if his goal was to make me question Khellus or the my assumptions about the Dunyain, it didn't really succeed.  I still feel the same about them as before.  The whale mothers just didn't land with me as a narrative tool.  So I guess it wasn't outrage or narrative disbelief for me, I just didn't agree with the choice.  But it is one of only a few "slip ups" in my favorite book series I have ever read, so I just grin and bear it.   ;D
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: incuroi on May 23, 2017, 03:02:16 am
so i also wonder if all female dunyain are whale mothers? it is also stated that some dunyain bread for specific task but are genetic dead ends (as in they are not made to have children but to be workers), it could be also that the women who don't end up as whale mother are scene as defects and are just made to do other job or are treated as every other defects are. therefore it could be that serwe is just a defective dunyain, really not as illogical as people make it seem (especially since koringhus's son is also defective).
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on May 23, 2017, 10:46:23 am
so i also wonder if all female dunyain are whale mothers? it is also stated that some dunyain bread for specific task but are genetic dead ends (as in they are not made to have children but to be workers), it could be also that the women who don't end up as whale mother are scene as defects and are just made to do other job or are treated as every other defects are.

Indeed, I've presented that idea to reconcile that Kellhus, even upon leaving Ishuäl, knows what a normal human woman looks like.

therefore it could be that serwe is just a defective dunyain, really not as illogical as people make it seem (especially since koringhus's son is also defective).

You mean Serwa?  Why would we regard her as defective?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: TaoHorror on May 23, 2017, 12:27:12 pm
Agreed, she's 1/2 Dunyain, explaining away any perceived "shortfalls" of which could be considered "defective" by Kellhus. Are you referring to something specific in the story regarding her as "insufficient" in Kellhus' eyes? Maybe the kinda callous disregard for her life/safety/comfort submitting her to the Niom?
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: incuroi on May 23, 2017, 11:45:25 pm
no more so in that she is not of the breeding strain, as in were she full dunyain she would have been scene as defective. it's strange i know but i think she and theilopia are really just expressions of a recessive duyain trait and the breeding with esmi made them more so.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: H on May 24, 2017, 12:59:26 pm
no more so in that she is not of the breeding strain, as in were she full dunyain she would have been scene as defective. it's strange i know but i think she and theilopia are really just expressions of a recessive duyain trait and the breeding with esmi made them more so.

Well, it could well also be that what makes whale-mothers what they are is double recessive, so that any world-born woman would never produce one.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Anwurat on May 24, 2017, 07:13:31 pm
so i also wonder if all female dunyain are whale mothers? it is also stated that some dunyain bread for specific task but are genetic dead ends (as in they are not made to have children but to be workers), it could be also that the women who don't end up as whale mother are scene as defects and are just made to do other job or are treated as every other defects are. therefore it could be that serwe is just a defective dunyain, really not as illogical as people make it seem (especially since koringhus's son is also defective).

I don't think so. Defective among the Dunyain in Ishual and defective half-Dunyains mean two different things. Defective Dunyain (like Koringhus's son) are those the Pragma or other Dunyain decided can't progress towards the absolute or pass on their genes to the next generation as far as I understand. The defectives that Moe drowned or Kellhus's children with Esmenet are a result of Dunyains mating with humans, which isn't natural for them. The Whale Mothers are just what female Dunyain look like now (IIRC at one point Koringhus explains to his son that Dunyain women once looked like Mimara, implication: they don't anymore). When Dunyains mate with each other they presumably don't have human women defectives any more than humans have whale mother defectives or other monstrosities like the ones Moe and Kellhus drowned when they have children normally.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on June 25, 2017, 12:13:39 pm
While rereading, I was surprised I didn't get Achamian's explanation about how the Wathi doll works and the connection (the colors in the two passages below are the match) with both the previous Aörsi chapters (about Kellhus shredding Proyas's identity) and Mimara's Judging Eye vision about the Whale Mothers and Kellhus sitting on his black throne.
I mean, the passage even starts with the vision of Nau-Cayuti meeting Shae.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 147, all fonts except color are in the text
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
"But isn't trapping souls an ancient art?" she asked.
"It is..." Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned - and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?
One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?
"But souls are exceedingly complicated," he continued. "Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies."
Which was what made them such willful slaves.
"So to have your soul caught..." She trailed, frowning.
"Is to be twice-damned..." he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. "To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside."

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 45, all fonts except color are in the text
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead, his heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
[...]
And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat, Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat - seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.
There is a head on a pole.

I also noticed a similarity between the quotes above in red, with the quotes in purple below. It's not exactly the same, but Kellhus/ the Dunyain/ TTT as an avatar of "The guy(s) bringing Hell on Earth". Stripping everything and everyone down to its bare utility, just like the "Sons of this Place" stripping down people's Thoughts (as opposed to Souls) to the bone.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 159-161, all fonts except color are in the text
Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than puches slung about their wombs.
The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their asignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of inseminations...
Sadism without desire. Cruelty - unimaginable cruelty - absent the least will to inflict suffering.
And evil that only the Inchoroi could surpass.
And when her gaze flinches, she sees that this crim is no aberration, but rather an inevitable and extreme implication of what rules the whole. [...] The fevious pitch of intellect, domineering, devoid of compassion or humility...
And the will - the blasphemous will most of all. The deranged hunger to become God.
[...]
Suddenly she sees Him, her stepfather, Anasûrimbor Kellhus I, the Holy Aspect-Emperor, high on his throne, wreathed in darkness and fury, a malignant cancer cast across the far corners of the world...
Doom incarnate.
Suddenly she sees the Truth of the old Wizard's terror. A Dûnyain ruled the World - a Dûnyain!.

The quotes in blue also cause me to wonder if trapping souls is the way the Inchoroi made the Nonmen immortal: I mean, it would explain their damnation and why their memories fail, with Hell feasting upon them. It'd also be ironic to have the Nonmen be strung between the World and the Outside/ Hell by the Inchoroi, since they revere passages and thresholds.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: mostly.harmless on June 25, 2017, 06:44:04 pm
Random thought I had, probably postulated by others here: could it be that Kellhus has been tethered to the outside since a certain point in the past (Daimos sessions with Iyokus?)?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: geoffrobro on June 25, 2017, 07:24:01 pm
While rereading, I was surprised I didn't get Achamian's explanation about how the Wathi doll works and the connection (the colors in the two passages below are the match) with both the previous Aörsi chapters (about Kellhus shredding Proyas's identity) and Mimara's Judging Eye vision about the Whale Mothers and Kellhus sitting on his black throne.
I mean, the passage even starts with the vision of Nau-Cayuti meeting Shae.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 147, all fonts except color are in the text
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
"But isn't trapping souls an ancient art?" she asked.
"It is..." Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned - and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?
One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?
"But souls are exceedingly complicated," he continued. "Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies."
Which was what made them such willful slaves.
"So to have your soul caught..." She trailed, frowning.
"Is to be twice-damned..." he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. "To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside."

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 45, all fonts except color are in the text
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead, his heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
[...]
And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat, Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat - seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.
There is a head on a pole.

I also noticed a similarity between the quotes above in red, with the quotes in purple below. It's not exactly the same, but Kellhus/ the Dunyain/ TTT as an avatar of "The guy(s) bringing Hell on Earth". Stripping everything and everyone down to its bare utility, just like the "Sons of this Place" stripping down people's Thoughts (as opposed to Souls) to the bone.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 159-161, all fonts except color are in the text
Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than puches slung about their wombs.
The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their asignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of inseminations...
Sadism without desire. Cruelty - unimaginable cruelty - absent the least will to inflict suffering.
And evil that only the Inchoroi could surpass.
And when her gaze flinches, she sees that this crim is no aberration, but rather an inevitable and extreme implication of what rules the whole. [...] The fevious pitch of intellect, domineering, devoid of compassion or humility...
And the will - the blasphemous will most of all. The deranged hunger to become God.
[...]
Suddenly she sees Him, her stepfather, Anasûrimbor Kellhus I, the Holy Aspect-Emperor, high on his throne, wreathed in darkness and fury, a malignant cancer cast across the far corners of the world...
Doom incarnate.
Suddenly she sees the Truth of the old Wizard's terror. A Dûnyain ruled the World - a Dûnyain!.

The quotes in blue also cause me to wonder if trapping souls is the way the Inchoroi made the Nonmen immortal: I mean, it would explain their damnation and why their memories fail, with Hell feasting upon them. It'd also be ironic to have the Nonmen be strung between the World and the Outside/ Hell by the Inchoroi, since they revere passages and thresholds.

Holy shit. What your saying puts A lot of other things into perspective. This need it's own thread
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on June 27, 2017, 06:06:04 am
You might be right. I posted it here since the Wathi doll is explained right before the passage of the Whale Mothers, but it's a bit cross-thread. 

*Tries to summon Madness*
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Madness on June 27, 2017, 01:45:08 pm
I made a thread, Fathers in Earwa (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2183.0), based on what geoffro said to me in Quorum. There's no reason to move this post, tangents are some of the best threads on this forum.
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Monkhound on June 27, 2017, 02:52:22 pm
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
Post by: Wilshire on June 28, 2017, 03:24:50 am
Great post monkhound, that ties some sections together really well.

Random thought I had, probably postulated by others here: could it be that Kellhus has been tethered to the outside since a certain point in the past (Daimos sessions with Iyokus?)?

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Or, say, when he nearly died at Umiaki and the Circumfixtion ;)