The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Cuttlefish on August 23, 2018, 01:20:09 pm
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
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Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.
Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.
Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.
I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.
Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.
I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.
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I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.
I agree with this 100%. But to bring back what Cuttlefish points out, the IF shows everyone that they are in hell or whatever.
To square these two thoughts: Kellhus misidentified the winners. The gab in the God's vision is not indicative of a Consult victory. It only shows that the No-God completes its mission, which is much different. Everyone that sees themselves as Damned is in fact destined to be in hell - its a forgone conclusion. However, those that do not see themselves in the IF are the ones that survive.
This could mean any number of things. To me, it heavily suggests that the Inchoroi/Proginators are the final victors. That the world is exterminated, that all men and nonmen, except maybe the 144k, are killed and their souls end up in hell. This includes both the past and the present Consult, all the nonmen that viewed it (all of which are pretty much dead so that makes sense), all the past Inchoroi (all dead now, so that checks out too), all the humans (again, all are dead, at least the ones that looked into it so far).
If you think about it, it's extremely unlikely that any one person/thing that views the IF is one of the select 144k. Of all the entities through all time, only the last 144k end up somewhere other than hell.
Thinking back, who anyone in the room that didn't mention the IF? IIRC, it was our favorite sociopathic murderer, Kelmomas.
What would the IF look like to someone who wasn't destined to be in hell? Perhaps its entirely invisible. An empty ring. Nothing.
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Is it also plausible that the Inverse Fire shows you the moment to moment truth that if you do not reach the transcendental ideal, until the last moment, then you are indeed damned?
So, naturally, unless you have stumbled upon the pinnacle of your existence, or are currently living in the perfect balance, then of course the Inverse Fire shows you are damned. Because the ideal is to work to the point of transcendence, that moment being, of course, the moment of death. Or, working to the balance of Oblivion, of course. The reason this "works" is because if you achieve the pinnacle (or moment, perhaps, in the physics sense) in death, then you simply do not have the time to fuck it back up and be out of tune again. The point being, that once again, the Inverse Fire isn't a lie, per se, nor is it truth, immutable. It really is the Goad. Because it seduces you into the trap of nihilism, because that is far easier than striving for the transcendental ideal.
I don't really understand if Kellhus realizes this though. In the sense of how he predicts that the "Consult must win." I mean, I also don't really understand how Kellhus fashions that argument anyway, so I'm surely missing something.
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A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.
So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.
Eternity changes and can be changed, as both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior found out.
This.
Kellhus explaining to Proyas that The Consult/TNG eventually wins if not that day, complicates further. But good catch, CF.
I'm still puzzled by that statement, and Bakker's answer in the AMA does not make it any more clear.
I forget, but Kellhus explains in the read that they have to end up winning otherwise there weren't be some current thing/condition in present day. Something about the gods maybe.
I think the reason is, the gods can't see beyond the Eschaton/end, the NG *is* that end, the gods actions demonstrate their a blindness to the NG, ergo the NG will rise at some point in the future.
I get what you're saying, but on the other hand, how can the Gods see and end related to something they can't see?
Everyone that sees themselves as Damned is in fact destined to be in hell - its a forgone conclusion. However, those that do not see themselves in the IF are the ones that survive.
Not according to the definition in the glossary for The Inverse Fire: Subparticular intentional field machine linking individual observational frames of reference to their eternal fate in the Outside. ...
That the world is exterminated, that all men and nonmen, except maybe the 144k, are killed and their souls end up in hell
The souls that die during the No-God don't pass into the Outside IIRC.
What would the IF look like to someone who wasn't destined to be in hell? Perhaps its entirely invisible. An empty ring. Nothing.
Nau-Cayuti saw the Inverse Fire, but I can't remember if he gazed into it.
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FWIW, the Gods cant see an end, they believe they are eternal.
Anway, yeah most of what I said presuppose that most of what we know about the IF, meaning most of what characters in the books think, is just wrong. This is only useful because there are so many paradoxical/contradictory things about it. Just an attempt to bring together some of these things.
"The soul that encounters it goes not further", the whole still-born child thing ... I'd say that this can still be true, just that once the NG was blow up, it released the souls. Anyone that saw the IF saw their soul Post-NG-Imprisonment. Alternatively, the NG sucked up relatively few souls and yet again no one that has gazed into the IF was one of them?
Where did Nau see the IF, was that False Son or Akka dream sequence? I'd be interested to see what he says about it either way.
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FWIW, the Gods cant see an end, they believe they are eternal.
Or maybe the God intends to destroy creation at some point, hence the "doom outside of doom" line.
"The soul that encounters it goes not further", the whole still-born child thing ... I'd say that this can still be true, just that once the NG was blow up, it released the souls.
Yeah this is what I'm going to go with.
Where did Nau see the IF, was that False Son or Akka dream sequence? I'd be interested to see what he says about it either way.
Akka dream sequence. I vaguely remember the description of fire being reflected off the floor.
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Oh right, false son was way before Nau.
Checked the chapter 1 excerpt, didn't say anything about it. Ah well. If he did see a reflection, he obviously didn't see nothing.
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all the nonmen that viewed it (all of which are pretty much dead so that makes sense)
And one of them is confirmed to find Oblivion.
The souls that die during the No-God don't pass into the Outside IIRC.
We aren't certain about that. A dragon believed that, but then we have a dream relating the Celmomian Prophecy, which is at odds with that belief. Celmomas saw himself being carried to the afterlife of Gilgaol (at least Celmomas thought so) when the No-God was active.
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It might be that the IF only simulates the general experience of damnation. Which is different from showing the subject the experience of their own post-physical destiny.
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It might be that the IF only simulates the general experience of damnation. Which is different from showing the subject the experience of their own post-physical destiny.
This is my primary theory right now. It's also somewhat close to what H is outlining.
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Oh right, false son was way before Nau.
Checked the chapter 1 excerpt, didn't say anything about it. Ah well. If he did see a reflection, he obviously didn't see nothing.
We do/don't get a glimpse of what Nau-Cayuti sees in the IF at the end of TGO in Achamian's dream. The only substantial thing there, however, is even more perplexing: NC's rumination that "he has always worn hell as a wig".
I will return to this thread to elaborate on my own thoughts, but for now I will just chime in that I also am strongly inclined toward the opinion that the IF is not showing the reality of what one experiences after dying, simply because it's impossible for a living, temporal being to conceive the experience of atemporal death. As a result, what people see in the IF is a distortion of what the afterlife experience actually is like. I don't think the IF is just a 100% bullshit machine per se -- it's an interface, quite literally according to what would seem to be an Inchoroi definition in the TUC glossary. Like any interface, it can only serve as a (flawed) representation of the reality lurking behind the scenes, as it were.
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I will return to this thread to elaborate on my own thoughts, but for now I will just chime in that I also am strongly inclined toward the opinion that the IF is not showing the reality of what one experiences after dying, simply because it's impossible for a living, temporal being to conceive the experience of atemporal death. As a result, what people see in the IF is a distortion of what the afterlife experience actually is like. I don't think the IF is just a 100% bullshit machine per se -- it's an interface, quite literally according to what would seem to be an Inchoroi definition in the TUC glossary. Like any interface, it can only serve as a (flawed) representation of the reality lurking behind the scenes, as it were.
Well, unfortunately, we don't know and probably never will know exactly how or why the Inverse Fire functions. I guess I just really like the idea that the Inverse Fire is the truth, just not the whole truth. And it isn't a lie, at least not in the sense that it isn't, in some capacity, a truth. The Inverse Fire, much like the idea of nihilism itself, is just a trap. The honey-pot that lures you in, of course, is that it is literally based on truth. It just isn't truth immutable.
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Well, unfortunately, we don't know and probably never will know exactly how or why the Inverse Fire functions. I guess I just really like the idea that the Inverse Fire is the truth, just not the whole truth. And it isn't a lie, at least not in the sense that it isn't, in some capacity, a truth. The Inverse Fire, much like the idea of nihilism itself, is just a trap. The honey-pot that lures you in, of course, is that it is literally based on truth. It just isn't truth immutable.
Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?
For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.
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Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?
For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.
Does it effect it? Absolutely. Is it a deal breaker though? No, not really. While I like answers, it doesn't bother me to have questions that don't have answers. I'd rather there be answers, but if the series is really just a long, wordy Rorschach test, then I can accept that. Although I'd like it better if there was more.
I don't think Bakker is lazy, I just think that he often has more ideas than he knows what to do with...
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Tangent. If we never get "fair" (and fair being some are answered) resolution to many of the plot lines, does that effect the overall series to you (anyone, please answer would like to know others thoughts, as wel)?
For me, it would. There are so many interesting mysteries throughout the series. It would be a shame if none of them were thought out, and don't have any conclusions. I think it would be lazy as a writer. And, Bakker doesn't strike me as a lazy writer. I have to assume he goes somewhere with them.
Does it affect the overall series?
Of course. The words written and the words not written both effect the series.
Would it be a shame if we got no more answer than what we have now?
Yes. It would be nice to have some more concrete answers.
Would it make me like the story any less?
No. I like the story as written. There are many stories that go unfinished. Dune comes to mind as one that cannot be finished. I still like them despite being unfinished. Plenty of others that imo are unlikely to be finished - Kingkiller Chronicles, Gentleman Bastards, Second Apocalypse, etc. - and that does not diminish my enjoyment.
Does that make Bakker lazy?
Depends. He could write a quick blog post that just lists out present mysteries and ends them. That would be extremely unsatisfying and would diminish the series. He could write that the consult accidentally blow up the arc, creating an explosion that exterminates all life, thus ending the series. This would be unsatisfying. I'd call both instances very lazy.
I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.
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Well ... hmm ... so in my not so humble opinion ... Bakker's writing rises to the level of "art". Therefore, I require nothing from him. It could well be the "message" is there are things beyond our understanding - the author being a part of that "our" - and to "nail it down" would be to diminish the majesty of the mystery we live. Bakker is artfully bringing up fascinating subjects that drive my mind and I love the cat for being able to do that. I'm fine with TUC being the end of it, really. I concede I want more because I find reading his books so much fun. So, the answer to your question - not much either way would it impact how I "feel" about the story. The damn thing is just too exciting to allow "incompleteness" to ruin it for me. And, quite frankly, it's mostly complete already. If he has concrete "rules" on The Outside and TNG, great, let's have it. If he doesn't, don't blame him - who would know, really?
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I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.
I don't know that his aim though is for us to be able to "definitively" answer certain things though. This whole forum, pretty much, is dedicated to us "finding" answers. But solid, definitive answers they are not. I don't know that providing any is really Bakker's aim.
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I believe he intends to finish the story, and that in his mind the readers will have been given enough information to answer any mystery once finished. Regardless of whether or not we can figure things out, I wouldn't categorize that as lazy writing.
I don't know that his aim though is for us to be able to "definitively" answer certain things though. This whole forum, pretty much, is dedicated to us "finding" answers. But solid, definitive answers they are not. I don't know that providing any is really Bakker's aim.
Do you think Bakker reads this stuff? Wonder if he's laughing, dismayed or pleased with how much we've picked up on and got wrong.
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Do you think Bakker reads this stuff? Wonder if he's laughing, dismayed or pleased with how much we've picked up on and got wrong.
Well, we do know he's read some small amount of it and I think "genuinely bewildered" would be a pretty accurate summation of how he feels. I mean, there is literally stuff he thinks is in the books that actually isn't, so...
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While I would definitely appreciate some greater detail on certain things (Psukhe, Aporos, metaphysics in general), the only thing that would come close to a "deal-breaker" for me would be not getting any resolution to Seswatha, and to a lesser extent Serwe's importance. The latter I'm sort of okay with being more of an obscure puzzle, but I absolutely feel we need some legit Seswatha explanations (I'm not particularly concerned about this though since I think the Seswatha-mysteries are deliberately being kept for end-game material).
Honestly the biggest thing I want from TNG is seeing perspectives of "both sides" of the war, since I think that was a really strong element in the first trilogy (primarily with the Ikurei serving as the main antagonists) that was basically non-existent in TAE. The ever-increasing Sranc hordes also started losing steam for me by TGO, so I would very much like some more human-on-human (or human-on-Dunyain) conflicts.
Oh, and please god give me just one new Tekne monstrosity. All of the established Weapon Races have gotten good screen-time and multiple moments to shine by this point, and it would almost seem stupid that the Mutilated wouldn't make at least one innovation here.
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Thanks for all the replies! I certainly understand everyone's pov.
I just feel a little resolution is what's needed. If all these plot lines go on muddled in the story, I just feel it a waste. Not saying it will effect my fandom at all.
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To further clarify, I absolutely would not be satisfied with the series ending with TUC, nor would I be happy with TNG just being an extension of various plot elements and characters fizzling out with minimal connections to each other. I really feel like the story needs to go all the way and get to the 144k survivors -- though I also think the strongest ending would be one where the good guys don't win, but also where the Consult ends up not achieving what they think they're achieving.
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Perhaps the most important thing to be answered still has to be what really happened to Shaeönanra, but beyond that I won't be too bothered if things aren't answered. The Inverse Fire for example, has an in my opinion pretty much straight forward definition in the glossary and on top of the things we learn from the main story and The False Sun, I don't think we really need that much more.
If the books ended with TUC I wouldn't be too sad, since the ending heavily hints at a Consult victory and it goes in hand with the whole crash space stuff, but obviously I'm looking forward to seeing more of The Mutilated and hopefully also some Aurax bits.
My biggest fear is that now that the main story is over that Bakker will three-pound-brain the books up too much. Some of his other books, e.g. Neuropath, suffer from that.
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When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for. As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books.
Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.
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When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for. As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books.
Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.
Let me rephrase myself a bit. I don't need every mystery spelled out, I want a "payoff" for some of the plotlines. I don't need to know how the JE works, I want the JE to play a meaningful part; the plot to have a significant outcome. The dreams, same. I don't need to know the how, rather the why.
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When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for. As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books.
Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.
There is also a fair chance that Bakker's "explanations" make no sense to us humans. ;)
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Perhaps the most important thing to be answered still has to be what really happened to Shaeönanra ...
I agree, the Shae thing is a great/fun mystery.
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When it comes to answers, we should be careful what we wish for. As much as I really want, for example, to know how the Psukhe functions, there's a part of me that knows that the ambiguity is a big reason I love these books.
Or to put it succinctly: Midichlorians.
Let me rephrase myself a bit. I don't need every mystery spelled out, I want a "payoff" for some of the plotlines. I don't need to know how the JE works, I want the JE to play a meaningful part; the plot to have a significant outcome. The dreams, same. I don't need to know the how, rather the why.
Totally agree, MSJ
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To square these two thoughts: Kellhus misidentified the winners. The gab in the God's vision is not indicative of a Consult victory. It only shows that the No-God completes its mission, which is much different. Everyone that sees themselves as Damned is in fact destined to be in hell - its a forgone conclusion. However, those that do not see themselves in the IF are the ones that survive.
Agree. Most of the Consult are dead prior to the No-God reawakening - and (we must assume) they are damned and have gone to hell. Remaining alive are Aurax, who may not necessarily have a soul at all, being a creation of the Progenitors, and possibly Shaeonanra. Golgotterath has been half trashed by Kellhus, and and as I recall, all the Quya were killed in the battle.
4 out 5 Mutilated are left, but how much control they have over the No-God remains to be seen.
I would be very pissed off if there weren't any further twists in the tale. Evil scientists triumph over religious maniacs, with no other options for humanity, and no way to defeat/ or neutralise the No-God is a very disappointing outcome as far as I'm concerned
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While I would definitely appreciate some greater detail on certain things (Psukhe, Aporos, metaphysics in general), the only thing that would come close to a "deal-breaker" for me would be not getting any resolution to Seswatha, and to a lesser extent Serwe's importance. The latter I'm sort of okay with being more of an obscure puzzle, but I absolutely feel we need some legit Seswatha explanations (I'm not particularly concerned about this though since I think the Seswatha-mysteries are deliberately being kept for end-game material).
I agree about Seswatha. If we were ever to find out what happened when Kellhus hypnotised Akka, I think that would answer a lot of questions - and may well indeed be end game stuff
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While I would definitely appreciate some greater detail on certain things (Psukhe, Aporos, metaphysics in general), the only thing that would come close to a "deal-breaker" for me would be not getting any resolution to Seswatha, and to a lesser extent Serwe's importance. The latter I'm sort of okay with being more of an obscure puzzle, but I absolutely feel we need some legit Seswatha explanations (I'm not particularly concerned about this though since I think the Seswatha-mysteries are deliberately being kept for end-game material).
I agree about Seswatha. If we were ever to find out what happened when Kellhus hypnotised Akka, I think that would answer a lot of questions - and may well indeed be end game stuff
A definitive answer on Akka’s changing Dreams might shed some light on this. I feel like Bakker is on record saying we’d learn more about the dreams in TNG.