The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 07, 2013, 12:57:08 am
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Damn. I hope my Judging Eye is on its way to Coles right now.
"And then he saw it... standing with the grace and proportion of an Ainoni vase, regarding him, the knife of its long beak folded against its neck. A stork, perched upon purpling dead as though upon a promontory of high stone, its snowy edges framed by bleached sky" (WLW, p513).
Proportion, vase. Constrasting Sranc and sky...
Something's up with the storks. But if they represent the Gods, why are they Holy for tracking Sranc, which are lies?
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I dunno, could just be coincidence. Because we always get the stork view with Sorweel who is obsessed with the whole stork thing to begin with. There may be a lot of storks throughout the story that no one really cares about.
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Well, Sakarpi culture reveres them as Holy... Sorweel reflects that City's indoctrination. I want clarification (not necessarily from you, though I'd be psyched if you had some to offer) about why Sakarpus considers them so? Is it just because they follow Sranc, thus leading the Horse-Lords in the hunt and Sakarpi culture reflects constantly repelling the Sranc? Is there a specific deity who holds them holy - like snakes (which is another weird one considering their use by the Cishaurim)?
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Something's up with the storks. But if they represent the Gods, why are they Holy for tracking Sranc, which are lies?
Because they actually follow the Sranc's victims, which are true?
Perhaps a sign of some belicose god kinda getting an itch that he's/she's not seeing the whole picture?
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Sranc don't have souls.
Storks don't have souls.
Why shouldn't storks be holy? And why shouldn't some Sakarpan ancestors or godlings be interested in storks stalking sranc?
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Well, Porsparian tells Sorweel that the Goddess believes Sranc and the Horde are lies. So Yatwer doesn't care for them?
But then Husyelt (sp?) and Gilgaol are the two most revered Hundred in Sakarpus.
Perhaps, Storks do have souls. Proportionate souls... to the God of Gods?
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Sooo....
Would all the scalpers that have been warring against sranc for twenty years be off the radar of husyelt and gilgaol then? Would they be starving for attention because the warring men are not warring or hunting, so far as they can tell?
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Sooo....
Would all the scalpers that have been warring against sranc for twenty years be off the radar of husyelt and gilgaol then? Would they be starving for attention because the warring men are not warring or hunting, so far as they can tell?
just wondering off into, by the hundreds, and dieing for no reason.
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I'm just tagging flags - flags & sufficiency, baby.
Something is up. Maybe it reflects the persisting faith in the original Kiunnat beliefs - Inrithism certainly didn't take hold in Sakarpus or Atrithau.
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I thought Zeum was a better example of the old faith.
Ancestor veneration over the new gods etc.
Comparitively free from the shadow of Golgotteroth and somewhat removed from the second apocalypse and the rise of Inrithism and the Kian.
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I don't actually know that ancestor veneration is older than Inrithism...?
I mean, in real life, old as death, likely - but in Earwa it seems like a way to circumvent the Gods judgement?
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Well, its a common component - even amongst the Scylvendi, to some extent.
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I thought Zeum was a better example of the old faith.
Ancestor veneration over the new gods etc.
Back to your suggestion - the only new Gods are the God of Gods and the Solitary God. Again bearing my question. How could Zeum be a better representation of the Kunniat beliefs than Sakarpus?
Remember, Leweth entirely dismisses the idea of a Latter Prophet at the beginning of TDTCB - a sample of Atrithau's beliefs. Zeum can't be entirely unaffected by Inrithism?
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Zeum is on the other side of Kian, divided from them by the Carathay desert and the Atkondras mountains.
I think it's safe to assume that the Satyothi settled there en masse after the five tribes came to Earwa and were quite happy to largely segregate themselves from the other tribes.
The Scylvendi seperate them from the Kinnuit nations.
I kind of assume that they have little to do with the Tusk, less to do with the Latter Prophet and their beliefs/traditions that parallel those of the Kinnuit would be those carried over from before the migration.
For example, Zaranthinius' works are banned by the thousand temples (because they are openly critical of Inrithism) but are presumably openly available in Zeum.
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The Scylvendi seperate them from the Kinnuit nations.
I kind of assume that they have little to do with the Tusk, less to do with the Latter Prophet and their beliefs/traditions that parallel those of the Kinnuit would be those carried over from before the migration.
This is what I don't understand... the Kiunnat are the beliefs of the Five Tribes, pre-Breaking of the Gates, enumerated on the Tusk?
What else could Zeum believe?
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Don't understand the counter argument, if there is one?
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No, not as I understand it.
The Kuniuri were the nation of the Norisai (just one of the five tribes) and were strongly influenced by the nonman tutelage.
Which caused a strong kind of cultural influence, to my mind.
All the way back to the Umeric empire the early nations of the north are refered to as being peopled by the Norisai. I think its safe to assume that the other tribes (Satyothi, Scylvendi, Ketyai) kept on moving. (Not the Xiuhianni, they stayed behind).
... Speaking of the original tribes, I'm not sure which the Kian derive from.
Seems like the Ketyai took the Tusk with them (or did it come south with Kinniuri refugees - I don't recall) and it clearly has influenced their culture as a prime religious artifact.
The Chronicle of the Tusk was written in Thoti-Eannorian - clearly it was important to all five tribes at one point in the past but how much so since ancient times, outside of the three seas?
Don't forget, the Tusk probably came from the Inchies. It's prominence in the three seas and (less so) in the ancient north doesn't necasarily make it the basis of all Eannan beliefs any more than the bible you find in hotels explains the common traditions of christianity (probably less so). It just incorporates many of them.
also, the God was present (albiet as some kind of placeholder - according to the glossary) in the Kunuirat tradition.
If Yatwer's claim to be the oldest of the hundred is to be believed, it seems reasonable to assume that others are newer and perhaps some even much more recent additions. How is a god born, after all?
Are the cults universally represented in all human cultures? Certainly not in old Kian or amongst the Scylvendi, but I don't recall Malowebi or Zsoronga paying them much heed either. (Please correct me on that if I'm wrong).
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we're assuming the only origin story we have, the 'breaking of the gates' and mass migration into Earwa by humans was authentic and not manufactured.
What I'm saying, to mix a metaphor, is perhaps the Zeumi were never at Babel to begin with.
And all this is still based on the straightforward reading of 'the breaking of the gates' in which the phrase has no meaning other than migration. And yet perhaps the single most significant on screen metaphysical moment of the Aspect Emperor is related to metaphysical gates and their importance.
Perhaps mankind are just demons riding upjumped apes and consciousness is an ape illusion that is only manifested for the human for the convenience of the demon, who views 'life' as nothing more than a welcome respite from the fires of damnation?
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Speaking of the original tribes, I'm not sure which the Kian derive from.
Ketyai.
Seems like the Ketyai took the Tusk with them (or did it come south with Kinniuri refugees - I don't recall) and it clearly has influenced their culture as a prime religious artifact.
Throughout recorded history, it's always been in Sumna, in the care of the Ketyai, except for a short period during the First Apocalypse when it was taken to Invishi.
It's prominence in the three seas and (less so) in the ancient north doesn't necasarily make it the basis of all Eannan beliefs any more than the bible you find in hotels explains the common traditions of christianity (probably less so). It just incorporates many of them.
It was the Tusk that united the Four Tribes of Men that entered Earwa, though. Those who didn't agree with the Tusk's (i.e. the Inchoroi's) particular retelling of their oral history and beliefs would have had no reason to follow its instruction to invade Earwa and attack the Nonmen. So it seems quite reasonable to assume that the Chronicle of the Tusk does indeed accurately reflect the beliefs of the Tribes who did actually follow it.
If Yatwer's claim to be the oldest of the hundred is to be believed, it seems reasonable to assume that others are newer and perhaps some even much more recent additions.
All of the Hundred are listed in the Book of Gods in the Chronicle of the Tusk - i.e. they all predate the Tusk itself. Ajokli is implied to be one of the most powerful/important (much more so than in the 'modern-day' Three Seas), while Yatwer and her followers seem to have been viewed with contempt.
Are the cults universally represented in all human cultures? Certainly not in old Kian or amongst the Scylvendi, but I don't recall Malowebi or Zsoronga paying them much heed either. (Please correct me on that if I'm wrong).
Zsoronga tells Sorweel that Yatwer is "the slave Goddess ... beneath our petitioni[ng] ... but not beneath our respect ... among the eldest ... the most powerful".
He also says that "honouring ancestors is far older than the Thousand Temples" and is apparently offended at the suggestion that it has anything to do with "Inrithi nonsense".
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Good stuff Dusky, thanks for the extra info.
It was the Tusk that united the Four Tribes of Men that entered Earwa, though. Those who didn't agree with the Tusk's (i.e. the Inchoroi's) particular retelling of their oral history and beliefs would have had no reason to follow its instruction to invade Earwa and attack the Nonmen. So it seems quite reasonable to assume that the Chronicle of the Tusk does indeed accurately reflect the beliefs of the Tribes who did actually follow it.
Except we know that the Inchies added stuff (specificly the condemnation of Cunoroi), so why should the rest be accurate. Its content is open to interpretation and thus manipulation, depending on the theological powers of the time.
The four tribes followed the Prophet Angeshrael into Earwa, and it was also he that incited the war of extermination against the nonmen.
Its not too much of a stretch to infer that the chronicle of the Tusk is anying but a collection of advantageous beliefs re-interpreted and tied together to serve the purposes of Angeshrael (and his manipulators), much like Kellhus' New Empire neh?
Then we have the fact that the Xuihuanni rejected the invasion initially and the Scylvendi and the Kian (and possibly the Satyothi) later rejected the Tusk and/or its theological apparutus, which casts further doubt over whether it reflected the original belief systems or merely tried to incorporate and supplant them (like the Roman tradition).
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I have no disagreements with the Inchoroi wholesale manufacturing the Tusk. We know they inscribed it and, at least, added the Nonmen as false.
Curethan and Duskweaver still suggest to me that Zeum and Sakarpus should both reflect Kiunnat beliefs and, of course, that ancestor belief is as old as it is here.
So back to my original question: is there enough evidence to consider Storks as Holy under Kiunnat beliefs?
Another thought... Why don't the beliefs of Zeum and Sakarpus belief reflect more similarities? Why is Zsoronga telling Sorweel anything about Kiunnat beliefs?
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Another thought... Why don't the beliefs of Zeum and Sakarpus belief reflect more similarities? Why is Zsoronga telling Sorweel anything about Kiunnat beliefs?
Christianity, Islam, Judaism. All from the same tree, all with many similarities, more similar than different, yet the slight differences are the basis for bloody war.
there are people of the islamic faith who could easily school Christians on Christianity.
Nonmen would be a more disconnected belief set--that still has ontological similarities--like Buddism.
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Sakarpus has experienced almost nothing in the way of cultural pressures from Inrithism. If a drift happened between Zeumi and Sakarpi Kiunnat practice or principle, it would either have to reflect Zeum's interaction with the Three Seas or Sakarpus' with the Ancient North...?
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Auvangeshai is the gateway to Zeum, certainly not Sakarpus. They'd be influenced by the Norasai moreso than Zeum.
As noted above, the Norasai certainly diverged from the old ways during the Tutelage.
The storks/holy animals do seem to be related to ancient cultic practices.
Ah, here we are.
From WLW - Malowembi on the Unaras Spur.
For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks. Where Zeum had remained faithful to the old Kiunnat ways, albiet in their own eliptical fashion, the Ketyai - the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less! - seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstract fancy.
While I'm off-topic, interesting find- this is also the passage is where Malowebi uses the Iswazi Cant (using the fetishes).
He's using the Cant to communicate directly with the Satakhan (whilst awake).
The implication is either that the Mbimayu can communicate directly with non-sorcerers (and that the Satakhan allows this - despite the pollution of sorcery!) or that the Satakhan is a sorcerer himself...
Back on topic, I would speculate that the 'holy' creatures seem to be those that watch. Snakes, storks, spiders...
Perhaps this is significant, the only creature (afaik) to intrude on WLW's perspective;
He saw a spider skitter across the floorboards, knew that the world was its web. He almost stepped upon it ten thousand times. Almost, again and again...
Ajokli or Anagke interfering? Proof of the WLW's fallability?
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The storks/holy animals do seem to be related to ancient cultic practices.
+1? Duskweaver had some great ammo in another thread:
The old European 'storks delivering babies' myth perhaps comes originally from the Egyptians, for whom the stork represented the human soul (more correctly, the Ba, that part of the many-aspected Egyptian soul that represented 'personality' or the uniqueness of the individual) as it entered or left the body.
There's another variation (in Eastern Europe IIRC) where storks don't bring souls to the newborn, but rather steal them, resulting in the child being stillborn.
Meh, we're well off topic, Curethan. I may make another thread, at some point. But for now...
For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks. Where Zeum had remained faithful to the old Kiunnat ways, albiet in their own eliptical fashion, the Ketyai - the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less! - seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstract fancy.
While I'm off-topic, interesting find- this is also the passage is where Malowebi uses the Iswazi Cant (using the fetishes).
He's using the Cant to communicate directly with the Satakhan (whilst awake).
The implication is either that the Mbimayu can communicate directly with non-sorcerers (and that the Satakhan allows this - despite the pollution of sorcery!) or that the Satakhan is a sorcerer himself...
I wonder if perhaps this is our first witness of Shamanism?! Sorcery inseparable from Faith?
I'm not sure that second quote is proof of fallibility, or even why that would be, but if that spider is an agent, my guess is Anagke, based on the "world was its web."
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Did Moenghus use a similar method to communicate to the Dunyain? He may/could have had contact with the Zeum...
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Moenghus was sending dreams. Implication was that it was a one way method.
On the other hand he formed a conduit for the Padirajah(?) to talk directly to Xerius at the start of TDTCB.
But then, that's Moenghus and the Psukhe - not a good indication of what should be possible with the standard Anagosis.
Malowebi's reaction to Meppa doesn't indicate the Zeum have much sympathy with the Cish.
@ Madness;
Maybe not proof, merely the suggestion. Everthing else the WLW does is marked by providence. He does not fail. Even the notch in his sword is there for a reason.
I thought the more important speculation was holy creatures being those that watch. If the Cish can see through the eyes of snakes, why not the gods?
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ah that's exactly the point. On screen, Moenghus has demonstrated the use of magic exactly twice. Both times he used communication magic. Two different species of communication magic. One kind is similar to the dreams only communication of the Mandate, the other kind is similar to the wide-awake communication of the zeumi magic. This is the only kind of magic we've seen him use. And yet slap a label of Cishaurim on him and we think we've got it all figured out, cause the label did all the work for us--when in actuality, the label probably was the lever used to deceive us. ;););)
From the evidence we have we could assume two possibilities from this:
In his thirty years, Moenghus has mastered both the Zeumi and the Mandati forms of magic and has used iterations of both as needed for communication magics.
or
The Cishaurim, still wrapped in mystery, have communication magics that Moenghus was able to harness to outperform the communication magics of both the Mandati and the Zeumi.
It seems we've always defaulted to the latter assumption because Moenghus has the label of Cishaurim, but there is nothing to disprove the former, the label Cishaurim just makes us think we don't have to consider the former.
And other then the very beginnings of a spell I don't think we have any onscreen use of Cishaurim magic by moengus. so the former has a stronger case of evidence than the latter.
He almost stepped upon it ten thousand times. Almost, again and again...
perhaps what the spider indicates is that the white luck providence pattern fitting can be interrupted, and that in the interruption you have a chance of forestalling him. Almost like someone caught in a loop, constantly falling.
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On the other hand he formed a conduit for the Padirajah(?) to talk directly to Xerius at the start of TDTCB.
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Maybe not proof, merely the suggestion. Everthing else the WLW does is marked by providence. He does not fail. Even the notch in his sword is there for a reason.
I really wish we'd had Skauras experience. Is there another Cishaurim in Shigek with Xerius' face on him?
+1 on suggestions. Why would he almost step? Was there a hesitancy, as you highlight? What interferes with the White-Luck?
And yet slap a label of Cishaurim on him and we think we've got it all figured out, cause the label did all the work for us--when in actuality, the label probably was the lever used to deceive us. ;););)
Lol +3. Course.
The Cishaurim, still wrapped in mystery, have communication magics that Moenghus was able to harness to outperform the communication magics of both the Mandati and the Zeumi.
+1. Mystery :D!
EDIT: And it makes great sense that if the Cishaurim reflect the agency or the perspective of a God, that looking through the world is how the Gods sense... I think there's been some consensus that we think Gods perceive and express through all parts of the world, human & otherwise, neh?
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Wasn't Fane an Inrithi priest originally, who they exiled into the Carthay/desert? He went blind, then ran into the Kiane and taught them about the religion he figured out?
At the very least, he went blind and got some cish powers from it (cish - the environmentally friendly magic!) - he seems pretty cool!
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I always had a feeling that the stork on the wall WAS Kellhus. Meta-gnosis shape shifting to spy on Sakarpus because he knew that he totally could in their favorite bird shape. Prolly been scoping it out for ages that way. Or just looking through all the fires.
@ Madness - What you said about the God of Gods and the Solitary God being the only new gods made me think--the first trilogy is the near annihilation of the SG's followers, what if TUC concludes with some kind of epic collapse of Inrithism?
@ Duskweaver - That's awesome, what you said about the Tusk uniting 4 tribes and the other one rejecting the Tusk. Neat! The fifth tribe could regard everyone else as heretics! If they have spent, say 3000 years, making their own version of Dunyain, how would a Dunyain even know? The deception would be so subtle!
It's so weird that the one tribe that has the Tusk changes it's religion so much: Tusk --> Inrithism --> Kellhus-worship.
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I always had a feeling that the stork on the wall WAS Kellhus. Meta-gnosis shape shifting to spy on Sakarpus because he knew that he totally could in their favorite bird shape. Prolly been scoping it out for ages that way. Or just looking through all the fires.
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@ Madness - What you said about the God of Gods and the Solitary God being the only new gods made me think--the first trilogy is the near annihilation of the SG's followers, what if TUC concludes with some kind of epic collapse of Inrithism?
Quite possible. Zeum stuck to the old ways, right?
It's so weird that the one tribe that has the Tusk changes it's religion so much: Tusk --> Inrithism --> Kellhus-worship.
Well, it's a little bit all over, right? All the tribes, save the Sayothi (Zeum), have changed their beliefs at least twice now. Thunyersus is in the Three Seas proper and it only just caught up to the latest (2000 year old) shift to Inrithism.
I need to hear about Eanna and the Xiuhanni. Maybe the Inchoroi or Nonmen will offer some narrative on the 4/1 split.
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Any interest in compiling a comprehensive list of holy animals? To start
Storks for Sakarpus
Snakes for Fanimry
Peacocks for Nansur
Are herons holy for someone? Holy for Mandati?
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Any interest in compiling a comprehensive list of holy animals? To start
Storks for Sakarpus
Snakes for Fanimry
Peacocks for Nansur
Are herons holy for someone? Holy for Mandati?
There have been requests and this thread easily serves as the place. I believe when I was last perusing TWP, I caught Hippos for the Shigeki... can't wait till I have a desk again and can have my books besides me.
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I've found the relevant passage - and there's even a bit more about holy animals there. It's TWP, beginning of Chapter 11:
Along the river, the Men of the Tusk saw sacred ibis and heron wading among the reeds and great flocks of egret wheeling over the black waters. Some even glimpsed crocodiles and hippopotamuses, beasts which, they would learn, the Shigeki revered as holy.
As for snakes, there's this passage in TJE (Chapter 4, Mimara and her Judging Eye):
The way good men shine brighter than good women. Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow. The world is unequal in the eyes of the God—she understands this with intimate profundity.
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This would suggest that snakes are holy not only to fanimry.
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Thanks, Alia.
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Poor Mimara, it must have been hard to be a little kid and have the Judging Eye. Laughed when I reread this part:
"Mimara, sweet Mimara, who as a child would only hold her mother's thumb when they walked hand in hand, who would cry inexplicably at the sight of solitary birds"
The Judging Eye, US edition, p 79, near the end of chapter 3
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Great insight, never really thought about that.
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Great insight, never really thought about that.
Thanks! Once I got thinking down that line, I wonder if TUC will include a bunch of revelations about what Mimara's seen before she met Akka: Mom, Proyas, Maithanet, Kelmomas, the Tusk...