The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Madness on July 07, 2013, 01:07:50 pm

Title: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on July 07, 2013, 01:07:50 pm

lockesnow, Wilshire, and Somnambulist were getting excited about Kellhus killing the Dunyain and enslaving their souls into some dread weapon-machinary a la Great Gate of Wheels.

Nerdanel away ;)...

(Somnambulist, next time don't hesitate :D).

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Somnambulist on July 09, 2013, 02:59:58 pm

Okay, here goes.  I'm not convinced I can surpass lockesnow's idea of using the slain Dunyain souls to power a weapon, cuz that's fkn awesome.  One thought I had would be to power empty vessels with captured souls, a la the wathi doll.  Would Kellhus have gained the knowledge/power to possibly trap the souls of those who are slain in combat, en masse, and re-parse them to awaiting vessels, thus replenishing his forces?  Maybe even return the souls to their former bodies, assuming what killed them didn't completely destroy their motility.  Hell, if I'm going that far, why not send captured souls back into the bodies of sranc or bashrag?  Army of Darkness, anyone?  :)

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on July 09, 2013, 05:16:07 pm

I figure since Shae will have a puppet army of empty vessels, making him more of less invincible as he jumps out of a corpse before its destroyed. Undefinable army of undead zombie sorcerers.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on July 09, 2013, 05:21:31 pm

I wonder if the mechanisms of Animata are similar to those of the Synthese...

These themes, again, reflect on transhumanism, super-soldiers, battlebots - the ability to accomplish physical feats outside the norms. I already expect the Consult to have Synthese that we have not encountered.

Quote from: Somnambulist on July 09, 2013, 02:59:58 pm

Army of Darkness, anyone?  :)

+1

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: sciborg2 on August 23, 2013, 04:39:31 am

Quote from: Wilshire on July 09, 2013, 05:16:07 pm

I figure since Shae will have a puppet army of empty vessels, making him more of less invincible as he jumps out of a corpse before its destroyed. Undefinable army of undead zombie sorcerers.

I got the feeling Shae has to leap from body to body constantly, and that this has to be done via the circle of living elderly amputees.

So given the fragility of that procedure I can't see him using his immortalility as a weapon in the manner you describe.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on August 23, 2013, 12:51:12 pm

I don't think Shauriatas controls his motion, sci.

The excerpt seems pretty clear that Shauriatas' soul is simply being deflected from the Outside.

It also offers what seems the most concise explanation for proxies, thus far (minus Seswatha's dream of the Coffers):

(click to show/hide)

         “But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

         Which was what made them such useful slaves.

         “So to have your soul caught...” She trailed, frowning.

         “Is to be twice-damned...” he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. “To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside.”

Synthese, on the other hand, seem living projections of soul onto matter. Both Animata and Synthese are facilitated by sorcery...

Animata require other previously ensoulled vessels, whereas, the Synthese (allegedly) requires a concert of sorcerers. I write allegedly because I'm paraphrasing Kellhus and he was speaking on Compulsion from Golgotterath to Esmenet.

Perhaps, that sorcerous trifecta is the key to this metaphor. Hrm.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: sciborg2 on August 23, 2013, 05:23:22 pm

But if Shae doesn't control his motion, is that throwing shanks to the wolf of my argument? If he has to fall continuously in a circular fashion he's going to be jumping from corpse to corpse.

As for Synthese, I do think it might be possible for Shae and other Consult magi to pilot one but I have my doubts.

I'm also not sure if a Synthese dying results in the death of the soul piloting it. Would Aurang pilot one if such was the case? We're talking about a being that is absolutely terrified of dying, so I'd think he'd find a lackey to do so if his soul was in danger of leaving Earwa.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2013, 01:47:34 am

Quote from: sciborg2 on August 23, 2013, 05:23:22 pm

But if Shae doesn't control his motion, is that throwing shanks to the wolf of my argument? If he has to fall continuously in a circular fashion he's going to be jumping from corpse to corpse.

As for Synthese, I do think it might be possible for Shae and other Consult magi to pilot one but I have my doubts.

I'm also not sure if a Synthese dying results in the death of the soul piloting it. Would Aurang pilot one if such was the case? We're talking about a being that is absolutely terrified of dying, so I'd think he'd find a lackey to do so if his soul was in danger of leaving Earwa.

At it did cause true death, then the synthase would not be something so fragile as pigeon with a human head. I'd imagine something much more intimidating, like a T-Rex or some such large creature. Or Cthulhu lol.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2013, 02:14:03 pm

Function specificity, Wilshire; exactly my argument.

Battle Synthese will be G!

I can't see the destruction of a Synthese resulting in the death of it's inhabiting soul. However, this marks another distinction between Animata/Synthese. In Animata, the destruction of the Vessel seems to distinguish the destruction of the soul.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: sciborg2 on August 28, 2013, 02:39:17 pm

If the Consult is breeding humans in the Ark to serve as amputee circuits as well as to power their animata, won't that result in dragging them closer to Hell.

It's fascinating to think about how terrified the Consult must be, to continually feel their damnation in that manner. Bakker has managed to make some fascinating BBEGs - weak and broken yet still more terrifying than many fantasy villains.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2013, 04:09:56 pm

I thought the circle amputees were all previous members of the Menggecca. I don't think the Consult are breeding humans, but thats not the main issue. All their experiments in the Pit of Obscenity would certainly create a topos. Did they know this would happen? Is it part of creating the No-God?

 I don't know, but its an interesting idea that a race so terrified of death/hell would make a topos out of their home.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2013, 11:38:24 pm

I think it's a unfortunate byproduct of taking the path the Inchoroi have, FB.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: sciborg2 on August 30, 2013, 03:11:31 am

Quote from: Wilshire on August 28, 2013, 04:09:56 pm

I thought the circle amputees were all previous members of the Menggecca. I don't think the Consult are breeding humans, but thats not the main issue. All their experiments in the Pit of Obscenity would certainly create a topos. Did they know this would happen? Is it part of creating the No-God?

 I don't know, but its an interesting idea that a race so terrified of death/hell would make a topos out of their home.

I don't think that would be the case, as there weren't enough human Menggecca to begin with. According to False Sun they only had 30 sorcerers of rank - compared to the Sohonc having 50.

Also, AFAIK the way the circuit works is you have to have people close to dying but not dead, just too weak to resist Shae latching on.

So it's possible being part of the circuit makes the amputees immortal, but I doubt that's the case as the advanced age of these victims was mentioned as being a factor.

Just seems to me that they have to be breeding humans, as the amputees have be ensouled for the circuit to work.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2013, 10:50:17 pm

Caring neither way, I'll add that the destruction of Saughlish may have swelled the Mangaeccan numbers, at the time... doesn't account for the two thousand years since the Apocalypse.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on August 31, 2013, 02:28:18 am

Well if I'm wrong about them being former schoolman, I thought of another alternative to breeding them in Golgotterath.

The tribes of men in the north east, above the big lake, would serve as a nice supply. I'm not sure who those people are or why they are there, but the Inchoroi clearly knew about them.

Hmm that brought up an idea: Anyone think its possible that the Consult have human slaves that they can use against the Ordeal. Or not even slaves, but groups of men that worship them as gods that live in the wild north? Could cause trouble at Dagliash if they throw an extra army into the Ordeal's flank.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on August 31, 2013, 12:55:38 pm

Quote from: Wilshire on August 31, 2013, 02:28:18 am

Anyone think its possible that the Consult have human slaves that they can use against the Consult. Or not even slaves, but groups of men that worship them as gods that live in the wild north? Could cause trouble at Dagliash if they throw an extra army into the Ordeal's flank.

+1.

In same vein, I have previously wondered at the Xiuhanni being a complete culture of Inchoroi-worship. They seem to leak through the mountains (Jekkia). Chanv always reminds me of the Inchoroi's translucent skin. There's also an instance of Glossary, Shiradi Empire that mentions Xiuhanni invading from Jekk but specifically calls them Eannaen invaders.

Carapace's mounted on staffs... from the East.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on August 31, 2013, 02:38:23 pm

Yeah I really hope they show up at some point,  or at least we find out their fate. Its rather irritating having that loose end.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 01, 2013, 12:45:20 pm

Hmm, doubt Shae will have an army of puppets.  Recall that Aurang's projections through the synthese require a circle of sorcerers to maintain the cants.

On the original thread topic, the weapon races are driven by the No-god's will when he arises, what more dread instrument do you need?

The idea of using dunyain souls for some kind of sorcery is interesting.  Based on Akka's descriptions of how souls are trapped and utilized in sorcery, and the hints we are given within his dreams of the consult's methods in stripping souls of identity and will before processing them in the golden room I would expect Dunyain souls to be too strong to be used in such a manner.  Doesn't mean Khellus couldn't do it, but I struggle to suggest a method or indeed a purpose via which he could use them.  I think manufacturing his own artificial god and a weapon race for it to wield is possible - the ordeal itself given gene therapy in their sranc steaks perhaps? - but I cannot see K. enslaving himself in the manner that the consult have. 

I see no reason why the consult should not have continued to recruit and corrupt members in the same way they did Ieva and the Scylvendi.  I do not doubt that they had corrupted sorcerers within the Anagogic schools - they would have only needed the special ensouled skin spy to get into the Mandate because of Seswatha's homonculous.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2013, 01:48:16 pm

It can't strictly involve the Golden Room simply in order to make animata. The Quya somehow harvest animata for the Great Gate of Wheels in Sauglish. The Schools seem to have animata mechanism - Achamian's Wathi Doll is certainly tolerated and apparently of historical use in assassinations (Wathi Dolls, not Achamian's specifically) so the Schools most certainly have contemporary uses for animata.

Otherwise, +1 Curethan.

In fact, there's a thread on titled something like 'why haven't more of the few gone to the Consult' around here...

EDIT: Why haven't more of the Few gone to the Consult? (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=840.msg6004;topicseen#msg6004)

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 03, 2013, 12:28:12 pm

I only use the golden room as a probable example of the process involved in creating the ultimate animata - i.e. Mog Pharau.
It fits with Akka's description of trapped souls being stripped of their experiential memories or "personality", leaving only that which can apprehend the logos.
The important thing I derive from this is that magical animata use a soul's ability to apprehend the logos to achieve the architect-sorcerer's objective; therefore said sorcerer must break or dominate the will of the soul that he wishes to bind.
Which leads to the inherent problem of using dunyain.  I do feel that ability to perceive the logos would lead to potentially more powerful animata, however I think that using one of the few might yield more efficient results.

Tangentially, the dunyain pretty much strive to be 'living animata'.  Beyond their mission, any "perfect" dunyain should follow the shortest path i.e. perceive the world as it truly is and thus see the onta, and act in a purely mechanical fashion according to the principles of logos.

Speculation: If Mog is viewed as a weapon of animata constructed from 144k broken souls and poised to upend the existing metaphysics of Earwa, perhaps Kellhus could be viewed as a weapon of animata constructed from a single unbreakable soul to oppose him.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on September 03, 2013, 02:42:22 pm

Quote from: Curethan on September 03, 2013, 12:28:12 pm

Speculation: If Mog is viewed as a weapon of animata constructed from 144k broken souls and poised to upend the existing metaphysics of Earwa, perhaps Kellhus could be viewed as a weapon of animata constructed from a single unbreakable soul to oppose him.

Then by extension, The Great Ordeal that surrounds him is as mindless and expendable as No-God's army of soulless sranc. To Kellhus, a soul that can be broken is the same as not having a soul at all.

It just struck me how similar Mog, standing in the middle of his gibbering multitudes of sranc, looks like Kellhus, standing in the middle of his psalm singing men of the cross circumfix. Not to mention that they both can, more or less, mind control all of their followers.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on September 04, 2013, 12:52:03 pm

Lol, maybe those are the comparisons Bakker is going for. Strikes me as fairly obvious once you've written it.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on September 04, 2013, 01:20:11 pm

Yeah I almost felt silly writing it for that very reason, but I don't believe someone has written down outright so there you go.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: locke on September 04, 2013, 05:18:00 pm

Once you wrote it, it clicked, I can't believe none of us have thought of that before.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Somnambulist on November 16, 2013, 06:45:46 pm

Back to the subject of the post:  the great tubular bell of the interval is actually a cannon.  Every time they ring the interval, it's collecting souls.  By the time they reach Golgotterath, Kellhus is gonna smack it on the ass and it'll go off like a gigantic Roman candle, fire hundreds of thousands of souls straight at the Ark.  Kablooooie!  Done.  Best anti-climactic ending ever.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Somnambulist on November 16, 2013, 11:44:39 pm

Quote from: Somnambulist on November 16, 2013, 06:45:46 pm

Back to the subject of the post:  the great tubular bell of the interval is actually a cannon.  Every time they ring the interval, it's collecting souls.  By the time they reach Golgotterath, Kellhus is gonna smack it on the ass and it'll go off like a gigantic Roman candle, fire hundreds of thousands of souls straight at the Ark.  Kablooooie!  Done.  Best anti-climactic ending ever.

I should wait before I write something I think is funny, cuz it's usually not.  But seriously, though, it could be a soul cannon.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2013, 12:20:20 am

lol I laughed.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Somnambulist on November 17, 2013, 01:06:27 am

Wait.  I re-read what I wrote.  It was pretty funny cuz I laughed again.  Right on, Wilshire, you and me, buddy!

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 17, 2013, 01:07:11 am

 8)

Consult gets quietly ensouled to death.  Off screen.  Without explanation, beyond the bell ringing and Kellhus saying something inscrutable.
Sounds legit.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on November 17, 2013, 02:12:07 pm

I laughed, Somnambulist. Again when the next post was you questioning your humour ;).

I feel like it'd be cool if Bakker got into a sorcerous golems (though essentially, the Consult creatures fit that bill).

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: locke on November 18, 2013, 07:40:27 pm

It'd be hilarious if the solution of the 'sranc problem' or 'bashrag problem' is to force them to be ensouled.  Or perhaps en-conscious-ed.

Lol, Kellhus becomes the saviour by giving the Sranc their souls, their humanity, so to speak, and in the process robbing the inchoroi of their hordes. ;)

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:18:01 pm

Nice, very interesting. Accept those we've eaten as our siblings.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: mrganondorf on March 11, 2014, 04:50:05 pm

FUCKING LOVE THIS THREAD!!!

Now I'm expecting a goddamn Voltron to erupt from the Ark.

Kellhus HAS TO have some synthese like things of his own.  :)

The Consult have got to be breeding some people, I just can't see TUC being as obscene as it could be without the Consult outdoing Cil-Aujus.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2014, 06:56:51 pm

Not only is the Arc bigger than a nonman mansion, it is also buried deeper and steeped in more suffering/atrocities. Some insane stuff is going to be unleashed.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: mrganondorf on April 30, 2014, 01:10:40 am

Really hoping to see some tiny weapons of animata too.  I could see Kellhus fashioning a bunch of small flying things that work in tandem--like a swarm that can descend on a single bashrag and have it pecked to the bone in a matter of seconds.

I wonder if someone could create a weapon of animata that worked as a sort of mini-no-god?  It wouldn't seal the world from the Outside, but it would grant you control over sranc in a certain vicinity.  If Kellhus has one, I bet he's waiting to use it when the Sranc level crosses 10 billion or something.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:25:46 pm

Nanomata ;)?

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: mrganondorf on April 30, 2014, 02:39:30 pm

lol, minimata!

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:52:18 am

Quote from: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:25:46 pm

Nanomata ;)?

wrong direction. Bigger is better. Yottamata!

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: mrganondorf on May 05, 2014, 08:44:07 pm

Quote from: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:52:18 am

Quote from: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:25:46 pm

Nanomata ;)?

wrong direction. Bigger is better. Yottamata!

OOOHHHH, that's how Kellhus will get rid of the Ark!  He'll force a god or the god into it and make it fly off.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Somnambulist on May 05, 2014, 10:24:19 pm

Quote from: mrganondorf on May 05, 2014, 08:44:07 pm

Quote from: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:52:18 am

Quote from: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:25:46 pm

Nanomata ;)?

wrong direction. Bigger is better. Yottamata!

OOOHHHH, that's how Kellhus will get rid of the Ark!  He'll force a god or the god into it and make it fly off.

The Ark as a new Carapace?  Fkn hell...  That might just about be my favorite nerdanel EVAR...

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 11:48:42 pm

If the previous No-God made a whirlwind, then one created using the Ark could be nothing less than a Black Hole.

Title: Re: Weapons of Animata
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: Somnambulist on May 05, 2014, 10:24:19 pm

Quote from: mrganondorf on May 05, 2014, 08:44:07 pm

Quote from: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:52:18 am

Quote from: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:25:46 pm

Nanomata ;)?

wrong direction. Bigger is better. Yottamata!

OOOHHHH, that's how Kellhus will get rid of the Ark!  He'll force a god or the god into it and make it fly off.

The Ark as a new Carapace?  Fkn hell...  That might just about be my favorite nerdanel EVAR...

Haha!  I didn't mean that, but Kudos to you Somna!!!!  I don't think I ever thought of the carapace as an animata, I figured it belonged to its own weird category.  Unstoppable Ark-Carapace is unstoppable.