The Gods, the God of Gods, and the Solitary God

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locke

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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2014, 01:32:51 am »
I don't think it's an accumulation system wherein the scales are weighed.  I think Mimara is unique in that she can offer forgiveness which wipes the slate clean.

Madness

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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2014, 02:28:57 pm »
It seemed from her POV that she felt she didn't have an option to save Sutadra?

And arguably she saves Galian from Damnation by forgiving her rape, which would have tipped the scales?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2014, 06:04:31 pm »
If she could wipe the slate clean, why might she be unable to save some?

The only thing I can come up with is the classic "you can only be saved if you ask for forgiveness" motif. Does Sutadra ask were Galian does not? I don't recall this to be the case, but I'm too lazy to check.

Also, her seeing some kind of Angelic-esque figure when TJE opens might (might) just be what she thinks she should look like. How could someone suffer so much for no reason? It would be exactly like Serwe, but instead of seeing someone else as Divine, she see's it in herself.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 06:07:04 pm by Wilshire »
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Madness

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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 07:41:59 pm »
I came here for something else but you have that backwards, Wilshire. She is unable to save Sutadra but able to save Galian... so long as he didn't do anything else to damn himself a smidgen more before he died. Least that was how I read it.

Something else:

Genealogy of the Gods; Yatwer and Gilgaol are mentioned as Sister and Brother. As all the Gods are all Gods and so sibling to each other or as Yatwer and Gilgaol are specifically Sister and Brother? If so, who "fathered or mothered them (whatever else)" and so on?
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2014, 01:11:17 am »
I came here for something else but you have that backwards, Wilshire. She is unable to save Sutadra but able to save Galian... so long as he didn't do anything else to damn himself a smidgen more before he died. Least that was how I read it.

Something else:

Genealogy of the Gods; Yatwer and Gilgaol are mentioned as Sister and Brother. As all the Gods are all Gods and so sibling to each other or as Yatwer and Gilgaol are specifically Sister and Brother? If so, who "fathered or mothered them (whatever else)" and so on?

Also strange that the reader is exposed to ONLY Yatwer's influence.  TUC will have to have revelations about the other deities influence on the world.

Madness

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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2014, 12:49:22 pm »
Also strange that the reader is exposed to ONLY Yatwer's influence.  TUC will have to have revelations about the other deities influence on the world.

+1 - I'm convinced that we will see the open hand of all the Gods and Cults in TUC.
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dulac3

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2014, 04:15:50 pm »
I came here for something else but you have that backwards, Wilshire. She is unable to save Sutadra but able to save Galian... so long as he didn't do anything else to damn himself a smidgen more before he died. Least that was how I read it.

Something else:

Genealogy of the Gods; Yatwer and Gilgaol are mentioned as Sister and Brother. As all the Gods are all Gods and so sibling to each other or as Yatwer and Gilgaol are specifically Sister and Brother? If so, who "fathered or mothered them (whatever else)" and so on?

Perhaps their "familial" relationship isn't meant to express some kind of true sibling connection as derived from a common parent as much as it is to denote that there is some kind of deep connection between the areas over which they have power: war/violence and the cycle of birth/life/death.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2014, 04:45:25 pm »
I came here for something else but you have that backwards, Wilshire. She is unable to save Sutadra but able to save Galian... so long as he didn't do anything else to damn himself a smidgen more before he died. Least that was how I read it.

Something else:

Genealogy of the Gods; Yatwer and Gilgaol are mentioned as Sister and Brother. As all the Gods are all Gods and so sibling to each other or as Yatwer and Gilgaol are specifically Sister and Brother? If so, who "fathered or mothered them (whatever else)" and so on?

Perhaps their "familial" relationship isn't meant to express some kind of true sibling connection as derived from a common parent as much as it is to denote that there is some kind of deep connection between the areas over which they have power: war/violence and the cycle of birth/life/death.

I bet you're right, but I like Madness' idea.  If Bakker publishes as Cosmogony of the Outside:
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fry-Shut-Up-and-Take-My-Money-Futurama.gif

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2014, 10:18:43 pm »
Perhaps their "familial" relationship isn't meant to express some kind of true sibling connection as derived from a common parent as much as it is to denote that there is some kind of deep connection between the areas over which they have power: war/violence and the cycle of birth/life/death.
Interesting idea. That at least stops us from looking for their parents, and their parents parents, etc.
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Madness

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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2014, 10:55:07 am »
Perhaps their "familial" relationship isn't meant to express some kind of true sibling connection as derived from a common parent as much as it is to denote that there is some kind of deep connection between the areas over which they have power: war/violence and the cycle of birth/life/death.

+1, I like this. In my considerations along the thematic ties (as opposed to familial ties, which was a new thought), I've always had a sore spot about no specific alien-reptilian personification of death.

Both familial and thematic relations can exist simultaneously, though...

Plus - creation myths are generally the most inexplicable tales possible. Gods who regularly "birth" themselves/others from eggs, wombs, nothingness, pools, etc, etc, are referred to as parents, fathers, mothers, for the shorthand necessary to communicate their tales to us puny mortals ;).
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JerakoKayne

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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2014, 12:46:33 am »
Something else:

Genealogy of the Gods; Yatwer and Gilgaol are mentioned as Sister and Brother. As all the Gods are all Gods and so sibling to each other or as Yatwer and Gilgaol are specifically Sister and Brother? If so, who "fathered or mothered them (whatever else)" and so on?

My personal interpretation is tied to the perception that the Outside ("inside", per Kellhus), and all the beings that dwell within, are a reflection of living consciousness in Earwa. The God of Gods would be the collective reflection/manifestation of all souls. Each individual God would perhaps be the manifestation of a particularly common sort of Jungian archetype among human cultures, given enough strength to become a sort of life after reaching a certain threshold of commonality. As society evolves into more complex forms, new ideas take precedence and new gods are "born". Among primitive tribal cultures, fertility and war were among the first such themes recognized and soon worshipped, making them among the Eldest, with the more familial relationship described in religious circles as a recognition of the overlap in their respective desmesnes, as previously mentioned.

Though I suspect that any particular deity's relative power doesn't necessarily require direct worship, only a prevalence of their sphere of influence among mass consciousness. Yatwer has been the chosen deity of the oppressed, not just fertility, and in recent years with Kel's rather violent despotism, there's a whole lot of folks around feeling oppressed, giving her by far the most power in the Outside, currently, and thus her prominence in the novels.

Or so goes my theory. Thoughts?

mrganondorf

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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2014, 12:58:45 am »
Lovely!  Jung+Bakker kind of works for the gods.  I think I've been thinking this way, but had no idea I was.  Thanks JerakoKayne!  Does Kellhus get bonus points with War for producing lots of it?

Madness

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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2014, 02:00:50 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, JerakoKayne.

Have you read Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa and Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa II?

To your post, much of that logic is what I use to justify the unleashing of the cults in TUC.

Essentially, Maithanet actually waylaid the agency of the Gods for a time by being the focal point of so much belief. It makes me wonder about Esmenet's comment about prayer, about the interaction of prayer and the Outside in Earwa, and that Maithanet probably prays in earnest, subvocalizing mental rituals...

But with Maithanet dead, the Cults are not bound (in another case legally, unless they elect their own Shriah) and so can act again as individual agents. Which, as per your thoughts about belief, would translate to increased powers for the Gods.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 05:25:38 pm by Madness »
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JerakoKayne

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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2014, 05:08:22 pm »
Very compelling stuff, Madness, though it seems you've linked the same thread twice. If there's another, I don't immediately see it in a search.

I've reached several similar conclusions as those listed in that essay, though I find the ramifications regarding the Thousandfold Thought particularly interesting for the purposes of this thread. Taking it a step further from an attempt at rewriting reality (Dunyani sorcery?), what if the Thousandfold Thought has indeed birthed another god - Kellhus. That the Zaudunyani's belief that Kell is not simply a voice of the God, but the divine himself, has in essence made it so?

While I poorly understand the metaphysics of the No-God, it so far seems to me to explain a likely strategy, a new "god" as a counter to the No-god in the absence of the Heron Spear or other Inchoroi weaponry. That Kellhus might strike at the No-God in the Outside, where it is potentially more vulnerable than in the physical, and where he now has considerable power drawn from the Zaudunyani.

What it does not explain to me, at least at first thought, is Kellhus' apparent indifference to the hostility of the Cults.

That essay has given me a great deal to consider as we await the Unholy Consult. Much obliged.

Madness

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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 05:26:43 pm »
Well, I fixed the post and second link above :).

I'm sure you'll be happy to read more about Thorsten's thoughts post-TJE (which is the content of his second post).
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