The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Tythus on October 04, 2017, 03:27:04 am

Title: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Tythus on October 04, 2017, 03:27:04 am
Hey guys, first time posting, I wish i knew about this site through the entire series ><

While I was reading TUC, I had a flash back to when Esmenet was visited by the Consult (By skin-spy, or by Aurang himself, different forums say different things and i havent read the first book in about 10 years so i cant remember) and her womb was filled with black seed? I had a thought that maybe they were conditioning Esmenets womb to bear kellhus's children in order to use in the Carapace. After reading the end of TUC I thought there was some merit to it, considering the line of Anasurimbor had been used before, and since Kellhus didnt succumb to the Mutilated reasoning they used his son.

It seems like something the consult would do if they saw that far into events, having a contingency plan to bring about the No-God again. Just curious what other people might think.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: geoffrobro on October 20, 2017, 01:47:38 am
This is a interesting thought but the Consult didn't know Kellhus existed back then they were trailing Akka.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: TaoHorror on October 20, 2017, 02:46:25 am
Your bring up an interesting point which raises the bar on the TTT - was Kellhus the only one who could perceive it? Could be Shae ( or some Consult ) could see paths into the future as well ( no real evidence supporting this just yet, but maybe ) ... that or the Consult have an alliance with a god who can see back/forward in time ( Shae is not Inchoroi, so is visible to the gods and he may be aligned with one of them - Yatwer? Why Yatwer hunting Kellhus - why specifically her and not others? ).
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: H on October 20, 2017, 11:06:58 am
Well, I have said it elsewhere, but I'll leave the idea here too.  If Kelmomas was always the No-God and so Mimara always the God of Gods (or it's vessile(?), eye (?)) then it stands to the same sort of reason that Esmenet has always been the mother of the No-God and the God of Gods.  In other words, the place through which both enter the world.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 12, 2018, 01:51:09 pm
Esmenet has always been the mother of the No-God and the God of Gods.  In other words, the place through which both enter the world.

Never thought of that. Esmenet brings into the world both the only true prophet and the tool of the world's ultimate demise.
And ignorant of both.
If ignorance is holy, she's an archangel.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: H on January 12, 2018, 02:58:31 pm
Never thought of that. Esmenet brings into the world both the only true prophet and the tool of the world's ultimate demise.
And ignorant of both.
If ignorance is holy, she's an archangel.

I guess we could  consider her a holy instrument?

See, I think it's entirely plausible that Serwë is actually damned.  Her ignorance is mighty, but she intensely and without any doubt was adamant in her devotion to Kellhus, who is a false prophet.  Esmenet always had doubt.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 12, 2018, 03:57:26 pm
Hmm, but you can be ignorant and have certainty.
In fact, the two usually go hand-in-hand: the more you know, the more you know you dont.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 12, 2018, 08:49:13 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Hmm, but you can be ignorant and have certainty.
In fact, the two usually go hand-in-hand: the more you know, the more you know you dont.

Like Koringhus? He understood his ignorance, and I believe he was saved by the God or whatever is behind the eye.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: H on January 15, 2018, 11:45:03 am
Hmm, but you can be ignorant and have certainty.
In fact, the two usually go hand-in-hand: the more you know, the more you know you dont.

Sure, I am not contesting that.  But Esmenet, even when duped, still doubted, where Serwë did not.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wolfdrop on January 16, 2018, 09:29:36 pm
On the womb topic, I’m unsure if it’s a TDTCB inconsistency but the first person to have sex with Esmenet after Aurang freaks out becomes his seed is black as well.

If there is some sort of lingering effect, surely Kellhus would have noticed. Bearing in mind the aforementioned encounter with the Eothic Guardrsman was weeks, if not months, after the first encounter with Aurang if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 17, 2018, 12:59:26 pm
On the womb topic, I’m unsure if it’s a TDTCB inconsistency but the first person to have sex with Esmenet after Aurang freaks out becomes his seed is black as well.

If there is some sort of lingering effect, surely Kellhus would have noticed. Bearing in mind the aforementioned encounter with the Eothic Guardrsman was weeks, if not months, after the first encounter with Aurang if I recall correctly.
I believe that what actually happens is Esmenet has a flashback and she freaks out.

Hmm, but you can be ignorant and have certainty.
In fact, the two usually go hand-in-hand: the more you know, the more you know you dont.

Sure, I am not contesting that.  But Esmenet, even when duped, still doubted, where Serwë did not.
I'm just saying that doubt and certainty are not necessarily and indication of ignorance ... whatever the opposite of ignorance is in this case.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 17, 2018, 09:43:02 pm
Here's my thing, there is actually no textual evidence that Kellhus isn't a real prophet. Maybe the God like him for trying to rid the world of Alien beings trying to fuck up his gig. Shame we never saw him with the eye, and we all know that was done on purpose.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: H on January 18, 2018, 11:23:48 am
Here's my thing, there is actually no textual evidence that Kellhus isn't a real prophet. Maybe the God like him for trying to rid the world of Alien beings trying to fuck up his gig. Shame we never saw him with the eye, and we all know that was done on purpose.

Well, that is a good point, because we don't really know what differentiates a "true" prophet from a "false" one.  Kellhus tells us that a prophet doesn't deliver divine words to man, but rather, man's word to the gods.  Even with that definition, does Kellhus really do that?
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 18, 2018, 12:51:50 pm
Here's my thing, there is actually no textual evidence that Kellhus isn't a real prophet. Maybe the God like him for trying to rid the world of Alien beings trying to fuck up his gig. Shame we never saw him with the eye, and we all know that was done on purpose.

Not to go way too far down this path, but its kind of like how a lot of people demand that either everything is done by God, or nothing is. In reality, if there was a god, its entirely possible we wouldn't be able to tell what was and wasn't directly done by it. Evolution, for example, could have been meticulously orchestrated by God - there's no reason for evolution to disprove its existence.

Similarly here, I think you're right in that Kellhus could be an avatar for some god that we don't know about. We're trying to prove a negative here (can't prove he isn't a prophet), and I don't find that line of reasoning particularly interesting as its functionally impossible to prove. Its along the same lines as claiming Moenghus Sr. is still controlling everything - yeah, the psuke could be used super secretly to do things we can't see or know about. Not wrong, but to me, uninteresting.

Kellhus isn't a real prophet because that's one of the main linchpins of the story - a normal guy falsely claims divinity to manipulate people to do his will. "No evidence" is also going a bit far. There's lots of evidence, its just disputable. Sure, we can ignore everything Kellhus says to the contrary, everything he does, the story structure and themes, we can ignore Psatma, Yatwer, Ajokli, the Dunyain, and everyone else that says he isn't a prophet, and come to the conclusion that he's actually the opposite of what all those things point to. We could, but I don't agree with it.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 18, 2018, 04:58:01 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Kellhus isn't a real prophet because that's one of the main linchpins of the story - a normal guy falsely claims divinity to manipulate people to do his will.

I think you got it backwards there. He never claimed divinity, in fact, the opposite is true. Everyone around him claimed it, and that's when the haloes appeared. He never understood the haloes or why he gotten tthem.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: TLEILAXU on January 18, 2018, 05:56:22 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Kellhus isn't a real prophet because that's one of the main linchpins of the story - a normal guy falsely claims divinity to manipulate people to do his will.

I think you got it backwards there. He never claimed divinity, in fact, the opposite is true. Everyone around him claimed it, and that's when the haloes appeared. He never understood the haloes or why he gotten tthem.
I think the halos were divine. There was also a part IIRC in Tuc where Kellhus levitates without using sorcery in front of kings of the Ordeal, the divine powers influencing him manifested here as well as in the halos.
In a sense, Kellhus might be some sort of meta white-luck warrior for Ajokli, navigating through time-lines invisible to Eternity. Kellhus did say "some have always smelled your absence" to the Consult.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 18, 2018, 06:20:25 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
In a sense, Kellhus might be some sort of meta white-luck warrior for Ajokli, navigating through time-lines invisible to Eternity. Kellhus did say "some have always smelled your absence" to the Consult.

I think If there Divine they are from the God of Gods, or whatever looks out through the JE. Sorweel, and the other WLW never had haloes, so I don't see the connection there.

Mimara's are silver and we know that she is oh so holy. Kellhus's and Inri Sejenus both had gold haloes. Could it be the belief of the people? That the God approves of their divinity? I don't know. But, Kellhus never claimed divinity, in fact, throughout PoN he goes through pains to let it be known he is not divine.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: TLEILAXU on January 18, 2018, 06:42:18 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
In a sense, Kellhus might be some sort of meta white-luck warrior for Ajokli, navigating through time-lines invisible to Eternity. Kellhus did say "some have always smelled your absence" to the Consult.

I think If there Divine they are from the God of Gods, or whatever looks out through the JE. Sorweel, and the other WLW never had haloes, so I don't see the connection there.

Mimara's are silver and we know that she is oh so holy. Kellhus's and Inri Sejenus both had gold haloes. Could it be the belief of the people? That the God approves of their divinity? I don't know. But, Kellhus never claimed divinity, in fact, throughout PoN he goes through pains to let it be known he is not divine.
He claimed not to be divine in in PoN to manipulate people, but in the end he comes to believe that he is Chosen e.g.
"If something something madness then how could he be so certain? something something haloes around his hands, the light of delusion"
and the exchange with Moënghus at the end:
"And what does the voice tell you?"
"That you are Dûnyain yet"
"As are y-"
"I am more *stab*."
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 18, 2018, 06:45:24 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Kellhus isn't a real prophet because that's one of the main linchpins of the story - a normal guy falsely claims divinity to manipulate people to do his will.

I think you got it backwards there. He never claimed divinity, in fact, the opposite is true. Everyone around him claimed it, and that's when the haloes appeared. He never understood the haloes or why he gotten tthem.
You're confusing what he tells Proyas and what he tells the masses.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 18, 2018, 09:30:55 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
You're confusing what he tells Proyas and what he tells the masses.

No. I'm not. In PoN he goes through pains to let everyone know he is not divine. Now, at this point he is considered a living prophet among the masses and is when the haloes appear.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Wilshire on January 19, 2018, 03:07:57 pm
Then you're confusing what's said with what's meant, and letting Kellhus manipulate you.
What he tells people, and what he explicitly wants them be believe, are not the same.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: MSJ on January 19, 2018, 03:44:44 pm
Quit trying to be the forum Kelllhus, Banhammer! :)
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Madness on January 19, 2018, 05:37:34 pm
On the womb topic, I’m unsure if it’s a TDTCB inconsistency but the first person to have sex with Esmenet after Aurang freaks out becomes his seed is black as well.

If there is some sort of lingering effect, surely Kellhus would have noticed. Bearing in mind the aforementioned encounter with the Eothic Guardrsman was weeks, if not months, after the first encounter with Aurang if I recall correctly.

I believe that what actually happens is Esmenet has a flashback and she freaks out.

+1

Here's my thing, there is actually no textual evidence that Kellhus isn't a real prophet.

Well, that is a good point, because we don't really know what differentiates a "true" prophet from a "false" one.  Kellhus tells us that a prophet doesn't deliver divine words to man, but rather, man's word to the gods.  Even with that definition, does Kellhus really do that?

I've always thought it telling that Sejenus could allegedly heal and Kellhus could not. Thus, the Parable of Horomon and Xinemus contrast throughout TTT.

"He cannot heal, Akka!"

There was also a part IIRC in Tuc where Kellhus levitates without using sorcery in front of kings of the Ordeal

Extratextual, I know, but at Zaudunyanicon Bakker told us this is sorcerous (or as Wilshire aptly put it, Meta-metagnosis).

Kellhus did say "some have always smelled your absence" to the Consult.

I like the imagined implications of this line.

Quit trying to be the forum Kelllhus, Banhammer! :)

The Wilshire That Comes Before Us ;).
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: The P on January 05, 2021, 06:23:12 pm
I was thinking about the black semen.  It could just be a gross alien biology thing.  But it could also be something akin to the "gray goo" of science fiction.  Some tiny nano machines at the root of the tekne.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: Madness on January 05, 2021, 08:37:59 pm
There was a discussion, once upon a time, that the Consult mediated the eventual Kelmomas with the gray goo cum ;).
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: The P on January 05, 2021, 09:10:37 pm
Yeah, I don't buy into the Consult preparing Esmenet's womb, but I like the idea of gray goo as part of the Tekne, toeing the line between biohorror and advanced technology.
Title: Re: Did the Consult change Esmenets womb to withstand Kellhus's seed?
Post by: H on January 06, 2021, 05:21:09 pm
I think it is fair to suppose that almost every biological aspect of an Inchoroi has been genetically modified in some way, although maybe with some teleological/technological aim but possibly just as side-effects of other grafts.  In the end, it probably has much more of a narrative aim of enforcing just how "alien" they are, that the color is inverted from what we might expect.