The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: profgrape on October 05, 2017, 08:37:38 pm
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The term Cause means something to the Dunyain. Koringhus uses it a few times in TGO. And it again comes up during Kellhus' confrontation with the Dunsult. Kellhus states:
"...Your Revelation was to understand that Logos was nothing but Cause as conceled by the darkness that comes before... You realized the mission was not master Cause via Logos, but to master Cause via Cause, to endlessly refashion the Near to consume and incorporate the Far."
I initially thought of Cause as impetus. But the passages above make me think it means more.
Does anyone out in TSA-land have ideas of what Cause really means as defined by the Dunyain?
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My take on it, it's more the causality type of cause. Basically, what comes before and determines what comes after. So when you constantly refashion your present, controlling all possible permutations of it, you also control the future by knowing all of its preceding causes (i.e. the Cause). This way you don't need Logos, thus taking one axiom away from the Dunyain teachings (The Rational Priority Principle, the one that asserts that Logos, or Reason, lies outside the circle of the world, though only in a formal and not an ontological sense, which seems unnecessarily convoluted and contradictory to me personally).
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I mentioned Aristotle to him, SmilerLoki.
Also, I'm sure as we were discussing the later Koringhus chapter where he discusses Neuropuncture uses "Cause" similarly.
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Isn't Kellhus saying there that the Logos is just another agent of the "darkness that comes before?"
I figure that to "master cause via cause" instead of via the Logos means to eschew some intellectual pursuit, rather take the Consult's line of reshaping the world to serve your own ends.
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Isn't Kellhus saying there that the Logos is just another agent of the "darkness that comes before?"
I figure that to "master cause via cause" instead of via the Logos means to eschew some intellectual pursuit, rather take the Consult's line of reshaping the world to serve your own ends.
Indeed, that's how I took it as well. The idea that the Logos isn't necessarily special, but was an effective tool of control. And ultimately one must reshape the world to reach the Absolute, that true grasp of the Logos isn't actual self-movement.
I think, anyway. The entire section still confuses me.
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Indeed, that's how I took it as well. The idea that the Logos isn't necessarily special, but was an effective tool of control. And ultimately one must reshape the world to reach the Absolute, that true grasp of the Logos isn't actual self-movement.
I think, anyway. The entire section still confuses me.
Yeah, I mean, I am Not Smart™ by a long measure.
However, I do think that Kellhus is simply explain why the Dûnyain would choose the Cosult Plan over any other. You want to be the cause that rewrites all other cause. Like Korninghus explains, the Absolute (should it even exist) could not be passive. The path you'd have to take is to be active, being the cause that causes what you seek.
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Reason is another machine i.e. logos is another machine -> the goal is not to master the passions and movements of the soul (or "soul") but rather to master physicality. Or something like that. I feel it's somewhat of an analogy to how philosophy fails to explain human cognition, you need causal physical science to truly grasp it.
But yeah, that section still confuses me as well 8)
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Makes sense to me.
The Dunyain seem to realize that they'd literally have to go back and time and become the first cause - create the universe or whatever - in order to be Absolute, which is impossible. What's not impossible is shutting out the influence of the First Cause (God) by sealing the world. Once the world is sealed, and being imortal, they are effectively the new First Cause and effectively Absolute.
How about that?