Quote from: profgrape on October 03, 2017, 09:25:43 pm

After listening to the spoiler section a few times, it's pretty revealing as far as Bakker goes.  In describing the relationship between the Gods and the World, Bakker draws from Kahneman's two distinct modes of decision making: System 1 (fast, unconscious, automatic, error-prone) is the Gods; and System 2 (slow, conscious, deliberate, reliable) is the World. 

What kind of blew my mind (hey, that's the name of the podcast!) was how these constructs relate to several other metaphysical concepts raised in the series:

System 2 => World, Conscious, Object, Watched
System 1 => Outside, Subconscious, Subject, Watcher
System 0 => No-God, Unconscious, Absolute

In short, the series itself is an allegory of human cognition!  Which is pretty cool. 

A spoilerific thought stemming from this way of imagining the world:

(click to show/hide)

Bakker shared a theory on Meaning in an article that preceded TDTCB by a few years:

http://www.sffworld.com/2000/06/why-fantasy-and-why-now/

Imagine that Meaning is the distance between Subject (irrational) and Object (rational).  So Meaning and value increase as a function of the difference between Subject and Object.  Ascribing the sun rising to a Sun God is Meaningful; Heliocentrism, on the other hand, is not Meaningful, it just "is". 

So when Kellhus describes the No-God as collapsing Subject and Object, it follows that it is also collapsing Meaning!  Which was, you may recall, how Bakker described Kellhus' mission, to bring meaninglessness to a meaningful world. 

So that's why sealing the World is necessary, not just because of damnation but because it removes the subject (God) and everything collapses into object...

Hello! First post so be gentle...

I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.

As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'

(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
 
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!

N

Quote from: Woden on September 27, 2017, 03:58:06 pm

But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 " was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.

This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.

Is it possible Kel saw his doom in that room? Bringing the head as a trojan horse type move, leaving an operative in his wake to finish the job. Why else bring him? Seems like a tight plan to introduce a spy into the room, otherwise why have him? My first read was that was why he brought him, as backup.