Excellent dissection, Smilerloki. ;DThank you!
Perhaps this speaks to another issue- one of the flaws I see with the series is it is unrelentingly dark and grim.I don't think there is something to be done here considering Bakker's stated goals and aspirations for the series.
Malowebi gives an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' vibe. Strapped to a statue's hip for all time. Yikes.
Curse Likaro!
Forgot about good ol' Malowebi. That is indeed a horrible fate. Especially if he is trapped in that head for years upon years.
I don't understand how you could possibly enjoy a story when you hate every character. But I've been told my sympathies are strange.My experience is, characters are not necessarily that important. Sympathizing them, even less so. For example, I enjoyed House's (of "House M.D." fame) antics, though after watching the entire show I genuinely consider him a horrible person.
Forgot about good ol' Malowebi. That is indeed a horrible fate. Especially if he is trapped in that head for years upon years.
It's a horrible fate in a reality where Hell isn't an alternative. Time spent trapped in that head is time not spent in Hell.
Proyas and Saubon are both representative of everyone Kellhus has analyzed, exploited, used, and discarded. Proyas is self righteous and judgemental but he's also the man who would take no more water than his men when dying of thirst in the desert and shows compassion for the weak while much of Saubon's damage is from being raised by an abusive father and being haunted by the need to try and measure up to the harsh standards of a wicked tyrant. The accomplish great things and, like everyone else, are discarded without thought or gratitude the moment it is advantageous to do so.
Saubon was a child pretty much till the moment of his death.
I think the only sensible answer to "Who has the worst fate?" is "Every character that ends up in Hell". An eternity of being tortured by Ciphrang seems pretty self-evidently worse than anything that any character in the series suffers while they're still alive.Apparently there's degrees of damnation even. Some are more damned than others. So maybe Kosoter has the worst fate?
I find them both sympathetic even if they're both terrible people. He doesn't just want to be superior mind you. He's not a narcissist. He wants to be good. Proyas' drive to be just and good was so desperate that it destroyed his capacity for reason entirely. But he never did feel secure in it, I think. Akka got through regardless, and so he pretended even harder to be the moral arbiter to compensate for his own fears.Saubon was a child pretty much till the moment of his death.
Well put. It's why I find Saubon a more sympathetic character than Proyas. Proyas is a man with every advantage and no excuses; he's smart, handsome, educated by Akka, loved by his parents and everybody else as a child, and winds up choosing evil because his refusal to doubt, to question, leads him to conclude evil is righteousness.
Saubon is an abused child who sought the trappings of strength and martial glory as an adult to hide the feelings of shame and inadequacy that abuse created.
I don't feel bad about Kellhus's fate in the slightest. I thought the way Kellhus went out was hilarious and I'm glad he got salted by the things he disregarded.Me too. It was perfect.
I would also like to join your club!I don't feel bad about Kellhus's fate in the slightest. I thought the way Kellhus went out was hilarious and I'm glad he got salted by the things he disregarded.Me too. It was perfect.
I would suspect that his soul is set to be promptly and eternally subjected to the worst horrors hell has to offer from the countless Ciphrang eager for revenge on the man who would seek to conquer them and their domain.Except Bakker flat out stated that Kellhus' soul cannot be found. The sneaky bastard seems to have discovered an out.
Except Bakker flat out stated that Kellhus' soul cannot be found. The sneaky bastard seems to have discovered an out.That would be a cool thing to put into a book instead of a reddit AMA. Especially since anything not in them is highly prone to potential retcon. Remember when the Maengaecca were still alive?
So speaking of shit that makes no sense... why didn't Achamian get the idea to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye the instant he learned of its existence?I thought he did?
I would like to revise my answer: the worst fate clearly belongs to those fans who were honestly expecting a clean-cut victorious ending, with Jesus Kellhus ending damnation with hugs and creating a Tekne-Gnostic utopia out of Dunyain smiles. To be so short-sighted before is to feel betrayed after, in perpetuity.
No, my question is: why wasn't Achamian's immediate reaction "let's go look at Kellhus with the Judging Eye like right fucking now then" instead of the slog to ishual. It just really, really stands out.
No, my question is: why wasn't Achamian's immediate reaction "let's go look at Kellhus with the Judging Eye like right fucking now then" instead of the slog to ishual. It just really, really stands out
I would like to revise my answer: the worst fate clearly belongs to those fans who were honestly expecting a clean-cut victorious ending, with Jesus Kellhus ending damnation with hugs and creating a Tekne-Gnostic utopia out of Dunyain smiles. To be so short-sighted before is to feel betrayed after, in perpetuity.Haha yeah good point, though I do not understand how such fans can exist after 7 books of Bakkerism.
unless I were armed to the teeth.Any weapons you take into the presence of a Dunyain will turn against you.
I would like to revise my answer: the worst fate clearly belongs to those fans who were honestly expecting a clean-cut victorious ending, with Jesus Kellhus ending damnation with hugs and creating a Tekne-Gnostic utopia out of Dunyain smiles. To be so short-sighted before is to feel betrayed after, in perpetuity.
Yes, but Akka isn't any of those things.I am the Sharmat. I am older than music.
I was going to add "and neither are you," but that seems presumptuous. ;)
I am the Sharmat. I am older than music.So "batshit crazy" then? ;)
The return of the No-God the Good ending!
I wept for joy when the sarcophagus appeared in front of Mimara.
Conphas as Aspect-Emperor? I'm sure Proyas and Saubon would be glad to hear that. :pBoth of them would have probably wound up dead in the holy war, I think. Conphas/Xerias had that whole thing pretty well buttoned up. They were all supposed to die before Shimeh, and certainly after that.
Wow, some big if's going on here - if no Dunyain, maybe no holy war, etc. Assume they have a war ( another Shriah decides to reclaim Shimeh ). Well, assuming same Famry tactics, they would've died in the desert.
If there was no Dunyain, then there isn't a war at all. The Scarlet Spires grandmaster isn't assassinated. Which is what starts the while thing. The war was a goad set up by a Dunyain (Moenghus). So, if there was no Dunyain there wouldn't be much of a story. Maybe resumption doesn't occur because they can't find the right brain for the carapace, because Kelmommas never would have existed. If there was no Dunyain, isn't a very intriguing question, imho.
I know this thread has drifted a bit but my nominee for "worst fate" is...Excuse me, pragma Meigon is not unnamed.
...Nameless Dude in Unmasking Room Who Was Used to Train Young Kellhus
Just seems so so so boring.
I know this thread has drifted a bit but my nominee for "worst fate" is...Excuse me, pragma Meigon is not unnamed.
...Nameless Dude in Unmasking Room Who Was Used to Train Young Kellhus
Just seems so so so boring.
Lol. I was actually referring to the dude whose face is opened up to study.I know this thread has drifted a bit but my nominee for "worst fate" is...Excuse me, pragma Meigon is not unnamed.
...Nameless Dude in Unmasking Room Who Was Used to Train Young Kellhus
Just seems so so so boring.
Maybe a new thread ... When did you realize Kellhus was "evil"It's funny coz' I didn't even know until the AMA that Kellhus was actually trying to save the World.
When did you realize Kellhus was "evil"
He was try I to protect and save humanity.
On THAT world? Honestly, there are plenty of times when I think that the world is not worth saving. Sure, I vacillate, but #teamconsult was a common sentiment for me.
He made woman equal to men.
Made the treatment of slaves a lot better. I know, slavery is still bad, but its something.
But, what if it was where you lived?
I found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".
Quote from: Dora VeeI found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".
Its in the glossary, it was more than just the ability to become a sorcerer. Gave them the ability to won land and inherit.
I must say, this is fairly consistent with the way I see Kellhus and the Dunyain worldview in general.Yup.
Yeah, but does he mean personally ( ever becoming the more powerful sorcerer ) or politically ( ever becoming more dominant over humanity )?Neither. Power for power. Or, you could say, both/all, though that's not quite correct as it misses the point. Means without ends. Like a machine, he just does.
You could argue that this still serves as an end, though. The Dunyain seek to obtain a mastery over circumstance, and do this by seeking the power with which to do so. It's just that the end is never reached, because there are always more circumstances out of reach.I have trouble to see it as an end precisely because of your last statement. You can formulate it the way you propose, sure, but I have doubts about it having much value for the sake of understanding.
Okay, so what does Earwa become if the No-God achieves shutting the Outside? No Gods, what is there to obtain or conquer after that? ( Again I'm firmly in the Shae is Dunsult camp)I feel like those are plot-related things (in the sense of being fictional analogies and devices to help Bakker explain - and maybe even formulate - his views), and thus it all comes down to this:
What happens if once the number is reached, and they (humans) repopulate, does the Outside connect again?
Why would a mere handful of people want a world to themselves?
These are things that no one discusses and quite frankly make no sense to me at all. Especially the extermination of the human race for Dunsult, Aurax and a handful of Nonmen.
There's no real world sense to be made of this: the Absolute, the unconditioned condition, is chimerical, a kind of cognitive perpetual motion machine. So fictionally speaking, the question is what kind of plausibility tales can you cook up. The Mutilated go pure objectivity, sapience absent sentience, while Kellhus goes pure subjectivity, sentience absent sapience. Press in either direction, and you trip into conceptual crash space, which is why all philosophical investigation of the theme remains mired in endless disputation.
QuoteHe made woman equal to men.
I found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".
It would hard to get women to go "back to the kitchen" when a number of them can level an entire city. Sorcery is the great equalizer, now that women are no longer exempt from it.
QuoteIt would hard to get women to go "back to the kitchen" when a number of them can level an entire city. Sorcery is the great equalizer, now that women are no longer exempt from it.
Except there aren't very many witches as they are still "the few" and it's not safe to assume that they would fight for women who are not.