The Prince of Nothing: TV series

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Wilshire

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« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2016, 12:05:02 am »
Relevant post from lev grossman regarding the transformation of his trillogy to TV.

http://levgrossman.com/2015/12/a-magicians-fans-guide-to-watching-the-magicians/
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Srancy

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« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2016, 01:26:09 pm »
'I got over it' means 'I deposited the check'

It's a not a bad thing, just don't see a reason why not to acknowledge it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2016, 01:39:55 pm »
He seemed at peace with it. May or may not have been the check, it depends on what his goals were I think.

If making money is the goal, then who cares about the artistic vision in the end.
If fame is the goal, then a popular series that diverges from the story would be better than an unpopular series that stays true.

However, if he wanted the story to be told as he told it, and didn't care for money, fame, etc, then its likely he would never come to terms with how it was produced - and he probably wouldn't have sold the rights to the show in a way that forced him to give up control. Which likely means that the rights would have never been sold to begin with.

I don't think its a cut and dry as 'I deposited the check', though the odds that that isn't a major part of it seems low (money is a big motivator to me, I don't understand those for whom it is not). Additionally, I think there is probably some social baggage surrounding 'selling out' that might make people feel like its somehow wrong. I don't get that, either, so maybe I'm way off. Everyone has a price, eh?

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2016, 08:05:15 pm »
A person is pretty complicated. All of those interests coexist at the same time and at least at the point of that post were at an acceptable confluence for him. Or he was just lying for the check. Either/or.

Callan S.

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« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2016, 02:52:30 am »
Does make me wonder if there'd be a point where he'd put his foot down, or whether it was all popcorn to him and hey, as long as the cheque doesn't bounce then there's no change that'll be a problem (it's just popcorn after all)...

What was he trying to get at with the series?

Titan

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« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2016, 05:09:55 pm »
'I got over it' means 'I deposited the check'

It's a not a bad thing, just don't see a reason why not to acknowledge it.

It is a bit tiring sometimes to have people re-interpret comments to fit their ideas. "He said X but obviously means Y". No. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as Freud would say.  ;D

There will be changes in an adaption. It is a different medium, with different strengths and weaknesses. Some authors are more excited about it than others, and see it as an opportunity to tweak the story for an interesting effect. Others chafe at any changes to their "baby".

(One example of the former: Dan Simmons once mentioned that he wrote as short treatment/adaption of his own Hyperion and Endymion books for a potential movie deal, and he made MAJOR changes, mashing/mixing events and characters from all 4 books together into one script that was very different)  :o

But two things are guaranteed:
1. The written version won't disappear, it will always be there.
2. There will be vocal fans who think that the story and themes are ruined because minor detail Z is not included or changed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:15:56 pm by Titan »

Srancy

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« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2016, 05:17:09 pm »
A cigar is never just a cigar - isn't the whole issue someone else is reinterpreting his own ideas, in the first place?

« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:55:23 pm by Srancy »

Titan

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« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2016, 09:38:08 pm »
A cigar is never just a cigar - isn't the whole issue someone else is reinterpreting his own ideas, in the first place?

Again you are putting words in his mouth. He is not you.

As for reinterpreting ideas, that may be an issue for some authors, but not all. After all, ideas are always reinterpreted by the sheer act of transfer, even by a basic reading. If not, how do you explain 95% of the posts on this forum, where we discuss, argue, and interpret what Bakker actually means with his writings? The idea that we get a whole set of ideas and concept just info-dumped directly into our brain with no loss of meaning or context is just false.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2016, 10:28:53 pm »
But two things are guaranteed:
1. The written version won't disappear, it will always be there.
2. There will be vocal fans who think that the story and themes are ruined because minor detail Z is not included or changed.
And sometimes the people in #2 are completely right because Z wasn't actually a minor detail.

Wilshire

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« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2016, 11:39:53 pm »
I feel as though I would be in the Popcorn camp as Callan described, but as I never have been in the situation, it's rather hard for me to say.


I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.
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MSJ

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« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2016, 01:11:19 am »
I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.

I would want them to folow the books to a T. I see no reason why the couldn't. Not a ton of special effects. I see zero problems with conveying innner dialogue, seen it done well I many shows, Preacher is a good example. I think the way TV is trending, the more gruesome, hard to take parts wouldn't have to be cut. Such as rape and all. The prologue to TDTCB, if it would stay true to the books, would give the audience a great look at how gritty the series would be. Just like the books, having Kellhus betrayed not as the "good guy" that you're supposed to root for would be the hardest part. I don't see where much would have to change from books to film. Just my 2 cents.
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Doubt

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« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2016, 02:27:36 am »
How you would order it so that the viewer isn't confused af by this while apocalypse and suddenly we're 2000 years on is more of a concern. Things may change as such. Carythusal would not make an appearance as an example, not that anyone would miss that. Many character relationships could change for many reasons. They'll get the gist of the story for sure.
Cuts and cuts and cuts.

Titan

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« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2016, 04:17:01 am »
I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.

That's because the whenever changes are brought up, the 'literalist' brigade immediately descend on the discussion steering it that way. They are like the Scylvendi, unable to see infinite tracks in the steppe,  :D so many ways to get to the same destination.

But since you asked, I will write up some ideas... Although I know exactly what response this will get from some quarters.

Changes I would make to make a PoN adaption more approachable for a wider audience: (The first book is the stumbling block to get over for new readers, we all know this)
  • Drop the bastard in Ishual prologue, it contributes very little (not even that the kid is an Anasurimbor) - instead start with Kellhus rescued in the snow. Another option to start the first episode would be the Inchoroi crash, and discovery by the Nonmen. Then flash cut to 'present day' and Kellhus in the snow. The rest of the backstory will be filled in through glimpses in Akka's dreams.
  • Simplify the political structure of the three seas. Only use 3 Inrithi groups - Nansur, Conryan, and Galeoth. And then the Fanim Kianese of course.
  • Merge Monemn and Sumna locations. Cut out Akka's start in Carythusal, a location we never see again. Move it to Monemn as well.
  • Both Serwe and Esmenet need to have beefed up roles. The characters could be merged, but is probably bad since this is enough of a sausage fest as it is  ;).
  • Accelerate the book 1 plot so we can get to the good stuff... Have all meet up in Monemn by 2/3rds through season 1. Season 1 ends with the battle at the river Sempis.

That's just off the top of my head.

H

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« Reply #103 on: September 15, 2016, 11:32:00 am »
If you are going to change anything, I think the Prologue is absolutely the wrong place to do it.  It is quite possibly (and in my mind, is definitely) the best chapter in any of the books.  You incorporate small bits from the "flashback" scene that opens it into Kellhus' journey out of Ishual.

How do you film it?

Opens with a pull back of Ishual's curtain wall, sprawling, ornate, but clearly secreted away in the glaciers and abandoned.  Cut to Anasûrimbor Ganrelka II's party, haggard (be sure to show the ornate five Knights of Trysë, close by Ganrelka clearly worried for his safety);  the wind howls, the look on their faces says "was that the wind, or a horn?"  They look ahead to Ishual in the distance.  Cut to Ganrelka is a bed, clearly dying of plague, cut to the distraught faces of those who were in the party shown before, as tears stream down his face.  Cut to a cold morning, foggy, his bier set up to be lit in the pyre.  Show wolves eyes gleaming in the firelight.  Show the rest of the party somber, no singing, just looking down, then back to the walls of Ishual, numerous sentries posted, intent on the horizon.

Cut to Ganrelka’s concubine and her daughter showing the same signs of sickness.  Show bodies being heaped up, show the same place, same sentries, only 1/4 the number now.  Show one of the few remaining begins to cough.  Cut to the five Knights of Trysë in beds, dying of the plague at various stages, from dead to near dead.  Cut to the Grand Vizier "his golden robes stained bloody by his bowel, lay sprawled across his sorcerous texts."  Cut to Ganrelka’s uncle swinging from the rope he hanged himself with.  Cut to The Queen, in a bed covering in blood, flies buzz yet she simply stares out, blankly, to a tapestry of the Anasûrimbor coat-of-arms.  Pan out to show Ganrelka’s bastard son looking in on her, a blank and lost look, but not sad, she isn't his mother and his father is already gone.

Cut to the boy searching the halls.  Emtpy rooms, bodies in various states of decay.  Then, he finds the Bardic Priest and focus on his strange look.  Show the boy fleeing.  Show the Bardic Priest looking for him, calling to him.  Cut to him finding him, huddled in a corner, "He caressed first his cheek and then his thigh. “Forgive me,” he muttered over and over, but tears fell only from his blind eye. “There are no crimes,” he mumbled afterward, “when no one is left alive.”"

Cut to the same wall from before, no sentries now, one dead and rotting in the background.  The Bardic Priest, drunk, stumbling after the boy.  Then, as he nears the walls edge, the boy is behind him.  A stone-faced look and a push.  Show the broken body of the Bardic Priest far below.

Cut to the same wall, clearly winter has come in force, show snow on the trees, ice covers the walls.  The boy sits, in his father's furs, blood and all, and listens as wolves bey, he softly sings "mother’s songs" while Gnawing on hardtack.  Cut to him "fly[ing] through the courtyards, answering the wolves with Kûniüric war cries, brandishing weapons that staggered him with their weight. And once in a while, his eyes wide with hope and superstitious dread, he would poke the dead with his father’s sword."

Cut to the end of winter, show the thawing by the treetops, from that same wall again.  The boy no longer sit in furs.  The sun is rising and the boy is started to hear voices from down below.  Show the Dunyain refugees, "fearsome—feral, like a wolf people."  The boy runs.  Cut to them fashioning ropes and climbing the walls of Ishual.  Cut to them finding the boy, huddled in the midst of the now bone dry corpses with his father sword.  “We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?” But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!” The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.” For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled."

Cut to Dûnyain scrubbing the walls, chiseling off the runes, burning the sorcerers books, etc.  Pan out, far and wide, show the remoteness of Ishual, how hard it would be to see from far.  Words, 2,000 years later, and the "present" date.

A hazy vision of Shimeh, clearly a dream, the sounds of battle distant and muted.  A cut to each dreamer, asleep, and back to aspects of the dream.  Visions of dead near a sea, a desert oasis, etc.  A serpent voice, “Send to me my son.”  Show each awaken, startled.

Cut to them meating in the darkness of Thousand Thousand Halls.  They look, wearily to each other, "This must end."



And so on.  It wouldn't be hard and I think it would make for a great opening to the show.  Lots there for water cooler talk the next day.  Plenty more to connect it to the next part, with Kellhus walking from Ishual, in the same path that Ganrelka had walk to it.  Kellhus' look back, show that same wall, where the boy had always been, to show the Pragma who would kill themselves.  It would all come together, I'm not even talented but the source material is so good it easy to fashion things out of it.
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Titan

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« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2016, 04:34:56 pm »
I'm going to have to disagree on that prologue... Yes, it is well written, but is so detached from the rest of the story. You learn nothing of the Dunyain. Nothing real about the setting or first apocalypse. None of the characters show up later, the kid does not turn out to be anyone important. (Unless Bakker is planning some real out-of-left-field reveal 6 books later) It is more like a short story set in the same universe than an actual part of the main plot.

So while the chapter is atmospheric, it is just fat. And fat needs to be trimmed so we spend more time on characters that will matter going forward. Every scene, every second is valuable currency that must be spent very thriftily. Anything in the story that does not directly impact the main characters needs to be on the chopping block, that is basic screenwriting.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 04:39:53 pm by Titan »