Speculiction's What Comes Next!

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MSJ

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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2017, 09:20:39 pm »
Quote from:  Sausuna
As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.

Sorry, sir. I won't ignore an honest question. He says just that that this isn't how it happens, it's different and so on. Here's where me and you are not in agreement. You think it as proof as to the untruth of the dream. I take as proof to the truth of the dream, that this is one of Akka's new dreams, ones that Akka only gets. Its just not til a while later he realizes how.much his dreams has changed. As I said before, I think his first dream from TCTCB, where he says, "My face in the mirror, not S." is a subtle hint that his dreams are changing as the world around him is beginning to change, he just doesn't even have a clue at this point. He doesn't even know about the SS's yet. Chalks it up to another of the slight differences in the dreams.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2017, 09:36:08 pm »
But, Akka admits shares this info with Mimara that these dreams are not like that of the Mandate over the centuries. What I take from this is the "Mandate" dreams are a goad the same as the IF. To keep the Mandate vigilant for the coming of the 2nd Apocalypse. Akka's are entirely different and explains all of this, and they turn out to be true, verifiable within the text. I don't know if your just not understanding me correctly or what.
You understand that this is just speculation at this point, correct? It's not stated in the books, it's what you take from Achamian saying that his dreams are different, which may or may not be true, since Achamian doesn't know everything, and here the most we can hope for is his educated opinion on the matter. By itself it is not textual evidence that his dreams are actually unprecedented, it's evidence that he thinks so. Also, the Mandate chronicle their dreams for a reason, be it slight differences in them each time (a possibility) or appearance of new information (also a possibility), or something else. Or all those things combined. However, it's clear that they don't know everything about Seswatha's Dreams. They are still researching them. So even Achamian's educated opinion might be wrong.

And then there is the case of contradictory dreams, which are more than just digressing into mundane events. They are something extremely questionable. You take them to be the truth, but nowhere in the books is this confirmed. Achamian himself is tremendously doubtful about them at some points. And those dreams aren't validated by the information contained in other, non-contradictory dreams, even if those dreams are different from the ones Achamian saw before.

You argue that there are only 2 categories: his initial dreams and his changed dreams. I note that there are more possibilities. There are his initial dreams, then there are his changed, more mundane dreams, and then there are also dreams that contradict his knowledge and expectations of the events dreamed. Those contradictory dreams are not necessarily part of his changed, more mundane dreams, since the contradictory ones started actually before the change, during TTT (the dream with the Heron Spear missing was there, right?).

Does this make sense to you?

Sausuna

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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2017, 09:40:12 pm »
@Sausuna, oh ho ho, we know that the what comes before and the glossaries have untruths in them definitely, per Bakker. That this is how history was recorded, with mistakes and personal opinions and not facts all the time.

Anyhow, SL and Sausuna we are at an impasse as they say. And, that's fine. Its ok, we don't believe the same thing. I was just trying to persuade you actual evidence from the books is all. No, biggie.
Certainly, I think that just highlights my point. Given we know two things.
- The Dreams can be wrong, per Akka, if not necessarily by his comments from TTT, at least by his ones in TJE where he talks about books full of variations/corruptions/etc.
- Historic accounts (like WCB and the Glossary) can be wrong, per Bakker.
Just leads back to there being enough doubt for me to be unsure which is necessarily true. But agree to disagree, my textual evidence is apparently equally uncompelling.

I imagine at least something of the nature of Akka's dreams will come to light in the next couple books given his RAFO comments.
Quote from:  Sausuna
As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.

Sorry, sir. I won't ignore an honest question. He says just that that this isn't how it happens, it's different and so on. Here's where me and you are not in agreement. You think it as proof as to the untruth of the dream. I take as proof to the truth of the dream, that this is one of Akka's new dreams, ones that Akka only gets. Its just not til a while later he realizes how.much his dreams has changed. As I said before, I think his first dream from TCTCB, where he says, "My face in the mirror, not S." is a subtle hint that his dreams are changing as the world around him is beginning to change, he just doesn't even have a clue at this point. He doesn't even know about the SS's yet. Chalks it up to another of the slight differences in the dreams.
I think this got off track before, but I want to reiterate my stance from my first post on the matter.
 
"I'm not necessarily in agreement that what he saw was the true sequence of events. I'll say it is possible. And it is possible something else resulted in the No-God's death as well. But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet."

I'm not saying his 'this is wrong' comments are proof the dream is wrong. Merely that it raises doubt that it must be true. And what I touched on before above. We have conflicting information from two sources that are both told to explicitly sometimes be wrong/differing at times. He never questions the veracity of future dreams and none of his other dreams contradict history or contradict prior dreams in this manner as far as I recall. But not only does history work towards one sequence of events, the 'this isn't how it happened' comments would also imply it.

So again, this could be the tipping point. It could be a corrupted, post-fever dream. It could be a combination of these things.

MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2017, 03:09:34 am »
@ SmilerLoki, no it doesn't make sense In the fact that we have textual evidence to refute it. Read it for yourself. TJE chapter 4, the ending of the chapter. Here is a passage to highlight what I mean. But, it's all there, all I'm trying to explain. No other Mandate has dreamt in this way. Remember Akka is a scholar and muses on readings about others dreams in the Mandate and they all share their dreams amongst each other.

Quote
“No other Mandate Schoolman has ever experienced anything like this?” She has asked this already, but it bears repeating. “Nothing,” he replies, his face and posture true to his frailty. He has shrunk into the husk of hides that clothe him. He seems as lonely as he is, and even more isolate. “What can it mean?”

“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2017, 04:54:45 am »
@ SmilerLoki, no it doesn't make sense In the fact that we have textual evidence to refute it.
Refute what part of it...? I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I know that Achamian thinks that no one else has dreamed the way he does, but here he references the way his dreams changed to show more mundane events, those away from the Apocalypse. That's what was happening for the past 20 years, not something completely different, like watching through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha or seeing events happening not the way he had seen them before (the latter happened twice, with the Heron Spear missing and possibly with the Celmomian prophecy being wildly different from it's usual form, am I correct?). Do you read it differently?

It also, of course, indicates that Achamian considers his dreams unprecedented. In no way am I saying otherwise. He thinks so, that's a fact. It being true, on the other hand, is not a fact, since it's only Achamian's opinion, but yes, that opinion is educated, so we can safely assume the kind of dreams he sees can't be easily found in the Mandate archives. [EDIT] Or couldn't be easily found, since Achamian wasn't able to use said archives for the past 20 years. I'm also extremely suspicious of how Serwa conveniently almost never speaks about her dreams.

What's more interesting is the fact that Achamian's dreams are being unusual in more than one way. First, there are dreams that show him more peaceful parts of Seswatha's life. Those are common for him, and have been for quite some time. It's this kind of dream that leads him to the map to Ishual, correct? And then there are contradictory dreams that show events happening differently than recorded in history (we are sure about the dream with the Heron Spear missing, but possibly the dream with Celmomian prophecy also belongs here) and dreams that are seen through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha (those are the dreams about Nau-Cayuti and also the Celmomian prophecy one). I think the dreams that have Achamian switching from Seswatha to someone else started only after he began to take Qirri. Can someone corroborate?

You collate all of these kinds of dreams together, but they can just as well be viewed separately. Do you agree? Not in the sense that you should view them as being separate, because your initial interpretation still can easily be the right one, but in the sense that another interpretation is possible and has similar weight.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:54:41 am by SmilerLoki »

TaoHorror

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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2017, 12:44:48 pm »
TaoHorror's Speculiction:

Put it in bold given my prescience on these matters ... me thinks once the 144,000 number spreads through Earwa, many will "volunteer" to assist TNG in reducing the population, the faster humans get to that number, the safer the remainder will be; it's high time that friendly neighbor takes one on the chin for the sake of humanity, charitable work, if you will.

The inspiration for this thought stems from what I found to be quite funny the Ordeal men "chasing" down "deserters" ... "hey, why are you running away?", "because you're chasing me?", "No!, you abandon and betray the Great Ordeal, now slow down so I can eat you!".
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Srancy

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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2017, 12:14:29 am »
I think we get another Kellhus sex scene. Crossing my fingers a Ciphrang is involved.

MSJ

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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2017, 01:21:30 am »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Refute what part of it...? I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I know that Achamian thinks that no one else has dreamed the way he does, but here he references the way his dreams changed to show more mundane events, those away from the Apocalypse. That's what was happening for the past 20 years, not something completely different, like watching through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha or seeing events happening not the way he had seen them before (the latter happened twice, with the Heron Spear missing and possibly with the Celmomian prophecy being wildly different from it's usual form, am I correct?). Do you read it differently?

The mundane events are the very thing that let him know the dreams were changing, why they were different from normal Mandate dreams. He also has dreams through the eyes of Nayu-Cayuti and a nameless sorcerer watching the burning of Sauglish. He straight up says that no other Mandate has dreamed the way he has, I gave you the quote, actual textual evidence. Your not offering me any textual evidence to back up your claim that there not different, none. You're offering me pure speculation, that's it. Which holds more weight, your thoughts or textual evidence?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2017, 01:51:45 am »
He straight up says that no other Mandate has dreamed the way he has, I gave you the quote, actual textual evidence. Your not offering me any textual evidence to back up your claim that there not different, none. You're offering me pure speculation, that's it. Which holds more weight, your thoughts or textual evidence?
I'm again not sure what you mean. I never said there is textual evidence of other dreams like Achamian's. What I did say was that we know there is no such evidence only from Achamian's own words, which are not the absolute truth. He's a POV character, and POV characters are not in possession of full information and can be mistaken. I also noted how he is literally the only one who ever discusses Seswatha's Dreams in depth. I'm confused, do you postulate that Achamian's words are indisputably true?

The mundane events are the very thing that let him know the dreams were changing, why they were different from normal Mandate dreams.
Yes, but it's one distinct change. Changing the person through whose eyes he sees his dreams is another distinct change, which is not necessarily related to the first. And then seeing events differently than before is a third significant change, again, not necessarily related to the first two. That's my point. You consider them related, and it might be true, but nowhere in the books is this stated. They might be unrelated, and it also might be true, but this isn't stated anywhere, too. So from my point of view those two possibilities are equal. Do you agree with this?

He also has dreams through the eyes of Nayu-Cayuti and a nameless sorcerer watching the burning of Sauglish.
Oh, nice, could you point me to the second dream, please?

MSJ

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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2017, 02:06:59 am »
As to what your saying that we can't trust Akka. We know through him that he has gone over the records of the dreams, discussed dreams with other Mandati and knows the type of differences that are experienced. I do take it reliable, I guess that's were we're disagreeing.

Yes has the first of them in TJE and WLW were he is a toothless wretch being dragged in a line towards the golden room, that's Nayu. Because, in TGO, first Ishual chapter Akka is Nayu and is in a coffin or box or what have you and is taking to Shae. And, well you can read it, it says that he'll never leave and will know agony like never before. Last chapter or scene of TGO, Akka is Nayu again and is finally at the end of that line and enters the Golden Room, sees the IF, and is led to the Carapace. And, thinking on it, Nayu looks at the IF and doesn't see hisself or his hell or make any inner dialogue about it at all. Proof that that's him and being the next to go into the Carapace, as confirmed in TUC by the Mutilated. If the No-God or the one destined to be the No-God looks into the IF, I'm sure it elicits no reaction at all, because of how time works and the Gods are blind to the No-God. Just more proof that what Akka sees is the truth.

Another bit of textual evidence is his scene with Sacareess in TUC when he asks if his dreams have changed and he says (Sacareess) no, just intensified. And Akka says that his has in a whole different way and Sacareess wants to know and Akka denies him. Plenty of proof that what Akka dreams when they change is nothing like any other Mandati has experienced.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2017, 03:02:55 am »
As to what your saying that we can't trust Akka. We know through him that he has gone over the records of the dreams, discussed dreams with other Mandati and knows the type of differences that are experienced. I do take it reliable, I guess that's were we're disagreeing.
It's not that I don't trust him, it's that I think some key pieces of information about Seswatha's Dreams are deliberately withheld in the narrative. For example, people might have been seeing mundane Dreams from time to time, but not cataloguing them diligently, thinking it's a fluke. Or someone might have seen a contradictory Dream, like the one with the Heron Spear missing, and not mention it at all, considering it not a real Dream. Like, the person seeing it was tired, or upset, or delirious, or any number of other reasons to not put much stock into his dreams.

If only there was some discussion about how different people live with Seswatha's Dreams, what they see, whether they try to influence the dreams or not. But there isn't one. We have Serwa, who is, surprise, Seswatha every single night, and all we get from it is a mention that she has some experience with the Amiolas. And she is a woman, which in itself is interesting, because before the Swayali only men saw the Dreams. But she's not just any woman, she's an Anasurimbor, half-Dunyain, and a Metagnostic sorceress to boot, who was instructed by Kellhus himself. Yes, that prodigious superhuman sorcerer interested in Seswatha's Dreams, which is further evidenced by him incorporating the Grasping into the Swayal Compact. His daughter sees the Dreams, and then we never speak of it again. To me that looks very pointed. There is something there, just like there was something with Kelmomas, and then with Kellhus himself in relation to Ajokli. I can only surmise it's of importance to the third series, so no spoilers on the Slog.

Yes has the first of them in TJE and WLW were he is a toothless wretch being dragged in a line towards the golden room, that's Nayu.
Was that before or after Achamian starts taking Qirri?

I'm also completely in agreement that the wretch in the line to the Carapace is Nau-Cayuti. By all means it should be him.

Another bit of textual evidence is his scene with Sacareess in TUC when he asks if his dreams have changed and he says (Sacareess) no, just intensified. And Akka says that his has in a whole different way and Sacareess wants to know and Akka denies him. Plenty of proof that what Akka dreams when they change is nothing like any other Mandati has experienced.
That entire scene just aggravates my suspicion that some key pieces of the puzzle are not presented to us. Here is a perfectly good chance to have a discussion about Seswatha's Dreams, but there are so many more important concerns no one is very inclined to take the time, and so we get no insight. Sacareess in this scene just seems to me not interested in Achamian at all, wanting to get rid of him as fast as possible. Can't really blame him, he has many pressing issues at that moment, but it's very suspicious from the narrative point of view, considering the importance of Achamian's dreams to the story.

MSJ

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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2017, 10:02:03 am »
Quote
= SmilerLoki]For example, people might have been seeing mundane Dreams from time to time, but not cataloguing them diligently, thinking it's a fluke

As the Mandate saying goes, "Seswatha never shits".
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2017, 10:21:15 am »
As the Mandate saying goes, "Seswatha never shits".
Exactly because of this, indeed.

MSJ

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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2017, 10:40:00 am »
But, they say that because they have the same dreams over and over and over of the 1st apocalypse, with small variations. Nothing ever mundane.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2017, 10:54:12 am »
But, they say that because they have the same dreams over and over and over of the 1st apocalypse, with small variations. Nothing ever mundane.
Or it's the overwhelming majority of their dreams to the point of everything else being overlooked because of their expectation aggravated by the rarity of possible outliers. Seems like human nature to me.