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Neil to Kellhus

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Duskweaver:
I haven't slept well for three nights now (a close relative is very ill), so this might not be all that coherent...

The Dunyain believe that it is potentially possible to come before everything, to master all circumstance, to be in control of all the things that control oneself while still remaining, in at least some sense, oneself (i.e. you're not simply moving one step back up the chain). Attaining the Absolute is to bend what comes before and what comes after into a self-moving circle. In Earwa, it's at least conceivable that this might actually work.

The Argument, however, holds all this subject to the physical and logical laws of our own supernatural-free world. You can't come before yourself. You can't boost your intellect through generations of selective breeding to overcome the Blind Brain problem. Bio-engineering the problem away just reveals the brick wall at the back of the theatre. There is no 'self' and no 'soul', so the idea of a 'self-moving soul' is nonsensical. The only 'Absolute' is the non-existence of meaning, which renders even itself defunct.

IMO, the metaphysical set-up of Earwa is Bakker's counter to the Argument. Either Neil's right or God exists, basically (hence he is logically equivalent to 'No-God'). The Inchoroi are the end-product of a world of Neils and Samanthas, who found out too late that the Argument is actually wrong, and set out to make it right.

Phallus Pendulus:

--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---Bio-engineering the problem away just reveals the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
--- End quote ---

I don't think "bio-engineering the problem away" is even possible, at least not for our species as we are now. Bio-engineering ourselves deeper into the illusion, certainly.After all, the human brain only perceives the limited amount of things that evolution has "designed" it to perceive. As Bakker is fond of saying, a brain can't view and study itself no more than a fingertip can touch itself.

Madness:

--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---I haven't slept well for three nights now (a close relative is very ill), so this might not be all that coherent...

--- End quote ---

Many, much condolences.


--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---The Dunyain believe that it is potentially possible to come before everything, to master all circumstance, to be in control of all the things that control oneself while still remaining, in at least some sense, oneself (i.e. you're not simply moving one step back up the chain). Attaining the Absolute is to bend what comes before and what comes after into a self-moving circle. In Earwa, it's at least conceivable that this might actually work.
--- End quote ---

I don't disagree with this but I feel it might hit upon a constraint I'm not willing to include in our dialogue. In Earwa, biological antecedents might very well be supernatural ("a thought comes not when 'it' wants, but when 'Onkis' wants," etc).


--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---The Argument, however, holds all this subject to the physical and logical laws of our own supernatural-free world. You can't come before yourself. You can't boost your intellect through generations of selective breeding to overcome the Blind Brain problem. Bio-engineering the problem away just reveals the brick wall at the back of the theatre. There is no 'self' and no 'soul', so the idea of a 'self-moving soul' is nonsensical. The only 'Absolute' is the non-existence of meaning, which renders even itself defunct.

--- End quote ---

Hm... this gets extremely tricky quickly. To the bold, that actually might actually be theoretically possible. We don't know.

Also, self-moving brain, self-moving soul... they don't seem to differ at all in my perspective (insofar as I'm ignoring the Earwan-situation because, again, that strays into emancipating my self from the "antecedent Gods").


--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---IMO, the metaphysical set-up of Earwa is Bakker's counter to the Argument. Either Neil's right or God exists, basically (hence he is logically equivalent to 'No-God'). The Inchoroi are the end-product of a world of Neils and Samanthas, who found out too late that the Argument is actually wrong, and set out to make it right.

--- End quote ---

Again - I don't disagree, I just think constraining ourselves to Earwa isn't conducive to this conversation.

Back to my unwritten thoughts from before: the inception of this thread's idea was the realization that Kellhus could accomplish the transition between Kellhus and Kellhus-It (Neil -> Neil-It) using the Tekne. To master what comes before, stripping himself of the final vestigial-antecedents that he knows the Dunyain have only muted, not extinguished with the Project.

Which, ironically, validates your whole Neil-It (Kellhus-It in this conception) as "the annointed martyr-messiah who awakens the No-God. He dies to bring about the semantic apocalypse. The revelation that sets you free from the illusion of meaning."

Lol.


--- Quote from: Phallus Pendulus on January 29, 2014, 04:52:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Duskweaver on January 29, 2014, 01:57:31 pm ---Bio-engineering the problem away just reveals the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
--- End quote ---

I don't think "bio-engineering the problem away" is even possible, at least not for our species as we are now. Bio-engineering ourselves deeper into the illusion, certainly.After all, the human brain only perceives the limited amount of things that evolution has "designed" it to perceive. As Bakker is fond of saying, a brain can't view and study itself no more than a fingertip can touch itself.

--- End quote ---

Maybe instead: The human brain 'mind' can only perceive ... "designed" it to perceive.

And I'm not sure I can offer a thought concerning "bio-engineering the problem away" but Neil-It is almost certainly a cyborg, chemically augmented by nootropics, sure, but more importantly technologically augmented... But regardless, it is actually very likely possible to influence existing human physiology in order to achieve the "Lo-Fi" experience that Neil-It suggests is the true physiological-perceptual limits of Blind Brain rather than the "Hi-Fi" experience we think we have, as neglect "fills in" the ring of oblivion around the mind-screen, among other illusory by-products, etc, etc.

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