[Madness]

Basically, sci, I think we wrote about how Nonmen found out about the Outside and Damnation solely from the emergence of Topoi - we discussed this on Westeros, which is why I can't remember enough to point you in a specific direction. We then went on to hazard that post-emergence, a great deal of Nonmen societal and cultural organization became oriented around the twin poles of Damnation and the existence of Topoi.

[locke]

I'm sort of fascinated of how Cnaiur describes the Mansion as a "Great Inversion of Ground" and particularly how that might relate to the Scylvendi's cultural take on Ground...

[sciborg2]

I'm sort of fascinated of how Cnaiur describes the Mansion as a "Great Inversion of Ground" and particularly how that might relate to the Scylvendi's cultural take on Ground...

Perhaps tunnels forcing one toward certain destinations inverting the trackless Steppe?

Would fit Cnaiur's whole arc, which is him always trying to forge new tracks for himself but always being trapped in the machinations of the Dunyain.

[sciborg2]

A thread to discuss what the properties of the Outside is. Just shooting the shit, so just throw out any speculation you please.

For example, I was thinking about the fact that Angelic Ciphrang can't be summoned. The way Bakker says it, this could either mean no such Ciphrang exist, or it could mean that they do exist but no one has caught one via the Daimos...possibly because some property of being Angelic prevents their conjuration into Earwa.

Perhaps the reason is a matter of subjective distance - That the Hells are closer to the world than the Heavens. Think back to the Ajencis's thoughts on Substance and Desire, how the Outside becomes more malleable - and thus conforms to whims of powerful agencies - the farther one goes from Earwa.

But what if the suffering experienced by mortal souls is what makes the surrounding Outside hellish? Planets alter the nearby Outside so the Ciphrang who were born near Earwa reflect the harshness of material existence, while beyond this rind are the Heavens?

That would tie into Mimara seeing the Abyss as a false foil, and beyond it is the infinite white light of the God...which is where the angels dwell.

[Baztek]

It could just as easily be that demonic Ciphrang congregate closest to objective reality due to ease of access to souls, like predators at a river bank.

[Francis Buck]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know Bakker's exact quote on Angelic Ciphrang? Do they definitely exist? Or did he just leave open a vague absence for the possibility of their existence?

Regardless, at this point I'd be reluctant to attribute Angelic Ciphrang as agents of the True God, if only because I don't believe the True God would require such agents. I would assume they were simply Ciphrang bound to the will of one of the Hundred (whom I personally believe are, in-and-of-themselves, basically just big mean demons). "Angelic" has a very amorphous meaning within the Bakkerverse as we currently understand it.

As always, more data is required.

[Wilshire]

I don't know the direct quote, but like Sci said, it was something akin to "angelic ciphrang cannot be summoned by the Diamos".

Might have been in one of the Q/A sessions (Read the topics with Cu'jara Cinmoi)

[sciborg2]

It could just as easily be that demonic Ciphrang congregate closest to objective reality due to ease of access to souls, like predators at a river bank.

True, but I was thinking about Mimara looking into the chorae and seeing a false foil - and beyond that rind lies Heaven.

@Francis - Quote and link:

The caprice of the Outside (where the distinction between subject and object is never clear) is such that those rare souls who walk its ways and return never seem to agree on the nature of what they have seen. Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.

-http://www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

[Srancy]

Unless, ol' Scotty proves me wrong, I'm going with the Matrix!

[Wilshire]

Yeah if you read the quote quickly, the first conclusion is that angelic ciphrang exist and cannot be summoned. If you think about it though, he simply says that demonic ciphrang cannot be summoned, which doesn't prove that angelic ones exist. Though to be fair, why put in "demonic" at all if there was only one kind?j Such   words are just used for control 

[Madness]

Such   words are just used for control 

Lol'd.

sci, isn't this pretty close to The Ground, the Void and the Outside?

[sciborg2]

Ah, yeah. Feel free to merge this into that one!

[EkyannusIII]

For example, I was thinking about the fact that Angelic Ciphrang can't be summoned. The way Bakker says it, this could either mean no such Ciphrang exist, or it could mean that they do exist but no one has caught one via the Daimos...possibly because some property of being Angelic prevents their conjuration into Earwa.

I was thinking about this issue recently.  My theory: the reason angelic Ciphrang cannot be summoned is not merely that they don't exist - Bakker has said that they do and it would be an odd ommission from the religious tropes he is working with if they were not real.  Rather, the issue is the Daimos itself.  If angelic Ciphrang are up to moral standards per Bakkerverse's baked-in morality, then they would be unwilling to sin - and if summoning higher entities as servants is sin, then the nature of the Daimotic pact would simply be incompatible with what and who angelic Ciphrang are.  The bindings involved in the socerous pact would not hold them, and in any case they would not and could not do what the summoner requested.  Trying to get an angelic Ciphrang to serve you in sin is just a category mistake.

[Madness]

Trying to get an angelic Ciphrang to serve you in sin is just a category mistake.

Sounds bingo!

[Wilshire]

Sound reasoning, but that doesn't make them impossible to summon, but not by the Diamos. The cish, or i guess at this point Meppa, could then still theoretically summon one. "Can't" and "very unlikely" are not the same.

btw can you link/quote where Bakker confirmed their existence?