The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on July 28, 2016, 10:38:11 pm
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Previous ARC discussion thread by clicking quote tag:
... not Moenghus, not Cnaiur or some soul mash-up of the two. He was, as he states, a survivor of the sorcerous battle in Shimeh and took the name of the cant that led to his family's death.
Just thought I'd prompting continuing this thread as I saw it had not been. Kudos again to Somnambulist who clued me into Meppa surviving the events at Momemn.
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Completely baseless Meppa speculation:
1. Child of Moenghus who was hidden away by his mother.
2. Skin-spy who turned against the Consult after getting a soul somehow.
3. Fane, reincarnated or just straight up immortal.
4. The man who will become the Solitary God.
5. No one special. Just some random guy with Cisharum training.
Some of these may have been suggested before. I hope at least one is new.
My money is on Moenghus being involved someone, even if he doesn't play a central role in Meppa's backstory. It seems unlikely to me that he would have had no contingency plan for not being able to persuade Kellhus (he must have at least suspect that Kellhus might side with the Consult).
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Lol - not to go off-topic immediately but... Kellhus' conversation with Proyas actually implies that Moenghus the Elder genuinely wanted to stop the Consult from achieving their goal and that Kellhus' accusations against his father were, in fact, an error. So I'm quite happy to lay to rest that Meta-Moenghus theory (though, I won't put down Moenghus-Ascended).
Otherwise, I wonder what Meppa's purpose serves to Kellhus...
EDIT: Oh, and I think that Meppa is the Consult Kid from TTT, just to put that out there again.
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Madness - Part of why I can't get with that theory is the timeline just doesn't seem to work. Meppa is described in WLW as having totally white hair which suggests he's not 30 or under, and he would have to be about 30 or under in the 2nd trilogy.
That said, I still think that scene with the boy at Shimeh has to be there for some reason. I still think the likeliest explanation is that it's a quick hint about where chanv comes from.
I admit I'm still surprised by the Meppa reveal that we seemed to have gotten which seems to be that he's a survivor of Shimeh and not a Moe machination or other theory. And we also didn't seem to get anything about what the metaphysics of the Psukhe or the faith of the Fanim portend, if anything. Obviously there's a chance we'll still get more in the next book.
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Prediction, and I'm not going out too far in a limb here - Kellhus absolutely, 100%, has a use for Meppa. Wether to gather info on the Psûkhe or to use his massive amount of Water in the fight with the Consult. Or, my favorite, the other decapitant's head will be placed on the shoulders of Meppa.
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Yeah he would be dead if he had no use.
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Maybe I missed something. Where is it confirmed that Meppa survived?
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Madness - Part of why I can't get with that theory is the timeline just doesn't seem to work. Meppa is described in WLW as having totally white hair which suggests he's not 30 or under, and he would have to be about 30 or under in the 2nd trilogy.
Yeah - it's a wild thought on my part (in the ARC thread, there must have been at least a page of back on forth on the "probabilities of greying at a young age" ;) ).
I do wonder why Meppa wasn't then an active participant at Shimeh (considering that all those active Cishaurim at Shimeh are dead) and also separately that Cishaurim can apparently have "families."
Damnit, I really want more of Fanim belief to be fleshed out.
Maybe I missed something. Where is it confirmed that Meppa survived?
As Somnambulist, so keen-eyed, pointed out to me: the last we see of Meppa is from Malowebi's perspective before Kellhus chops him. Malowebi sees Meppa "lolling semi-conscious" on the debris behind Kellhus.
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My first thought was that Kellhus may want to study the Psukhe for some reason, but then it seems fairly self-explanatory, driven by passion and so on...It does seem odd to keep him alive.
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My first thought was that Kellhus may want to study the Psukhe for some reason, but then it seems fairly self-explanatory, driven by passion and so on...It does seem odd to keep him alive.
Maybe he knew it was Moe (gray hair hmmmmmm). He came back to Kyudea after defeating the Cish at Shimeh, Whelmed Moe and sent him to the desert. Yessssss, the Moe=Meppa will be revealed in TUC. @Wilshire, the Moe theories will NEVER die!!!!
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My first thought was that Kellhus may want to study the Psukhe for some reason, but then it seems fairly self-explanatory, driven by passion and so on...It does seem odd to keep him alive.
Maybe he knew it was Moe (gray hair hmmmmmm). He came back to Kyudea after defeating the Cish at Shimeh, Whelmed Moe and sent him to the desert. Yessssss, the Moe=Meppa will be revealed in TUC. @Wilshire, the Moe theories will NEVER die!!!!
Moe's totally dead bro, deader than Cnauir was until this book.
I can't imagine the Kellman not even saying a word to his pops while he was giving him the metagnostic beatdown.
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@Wilshire, the Moe theories will NEVER die!!!!
What is dead may never die!
Meta-Moë 2016, whoo!
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Lmao.
Honestly, I'll say again - I was a huge proponent of the "there's more to Moenghus the Elder" theories, though I'm largely sated by Kellhus admitting to Proyas that he killed his father in error. Regardless, I am, in fact, still holding out for Moenghus-Ascended.
But I feel like if people were upset about Cnaiur as "possible fan-service," they are going to lose it if Meppa is Moenghus the Elder.
Lmao. Readers.
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My first thought was that Kellhus may want to study the Psukhe for some reason, but then it seems fairly self-explanatory, driven by passion and so on...It does seem odd to keep him alive.
Maybe he knew it was Moe (gray hair hmmmmmm). He came back to Kyudea after defeating the Cish at Shimeh, Whelmed Moe and sent him to the desert. Yessssss, the Moe=Meppa will be revealed in TUC. @Wilshire, the Moe theories will NEVER die!!!!
Moe's totally dead bro, deader than Cnauir was until this book.
I can't imagine the Kellman not even saying a word to his pops while he was giving him the metagnostic beatdown.
Cnaüir was totally dead too bro, since I've started to discuss these books. I just kidding to be honest, though. Moe may have ascended anthats who is in Kellhus's dreams, but yea, I agree he's more than likely dead.
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Considering the power Meppa had with his hatred, Cnaiur would make Meppa's "deluge" look like a puddle.
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@ Madness - Meppa as Consult kid? Cool!
@ Triskele - After Meppa's encounter with Esmi, it's possible that ALL physical descriptions of Cishaurim are meaningless. Maybe Meppa is Fucking Fane himself and just appears however.
@ MSJ - I think Meppa will teach the Psukhe to either or both Kelmomas or Crab-Kid. One of these kids ends up being the last hero to stand before No-God/Kellhus
I'm betting that Meppa is the last Cishaurim that wan't part of Old Moe's sect (The ones we will meet in Golgotterath)
@ Onrack - Possession and appearance transformation, all without the Mark! Old Moe had all the tools to stage his own stabbing/salting!
OLD MOE STILL PULLING STRINGS--HAS THE REMANANTS OF THE CISHAURIM AND DUNYAIN IN GOLGOTTERATH, RUNS THE CONSULT
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Lol - welcome back, MG 8)!
I don't believe Wilshire will appreciate your newfound "OLD MOE STILL PULLING STRINGS--HAS THE REMANANTS OF THE CISHAURIM AND DUNYAIN IN GOLGOTTERATH, RUNS THE CONSULT" hypothesis ;).
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Lol - welcome back, MG 8)!
I don't believe Wilshire will appreciate your newfound "OLD MOE STILL PULLING STRINGS--HAS THE REMANANTS OF THE CISHAURIM AND DUNYAIN IN GOLGOTTERATH, RUNS THE CONSULT" hypothesis ;).
Just wait till there are no Cishaurim in TUC and then I'll put forward my theory that since the psukhe is invisible, the absence of Cishaurim is better than any other proof that they are really running the show!
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He'll go become Malazan-Wilshire and eventually be equally disturbed by some comparable Malazan theory.
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Meppa is there to teach the Psukhe to Kelmomas and Samarmas, who will sing (or think really loud, in this case) with six voices at once using the meta-meta-Psukhe and their conjoined souls.
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Lol - MetaMetaPsukhe for the win.
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Meppa is there to teach the Psukhe to Kelmomas and Samarmas, who will sing (or think really loud, in this case) with six voices at once using the meta-meta-Psukhe and their conjoined souls.
Yea, but the Psûkhe is based off of passion, Kelmommas doesn't seem like a prime canidate for the Psûkhe. Can't see that happening.
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Kelmomas is extremely passionate. He just loves his mother to death...
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Lmao.
Honestly, I'll say again - I was a huge proponent of the "there's more to Moenghus the Elder" theories, though I'm largely sated by Kellhus admitting to Proyas that he killed his father in error. Regardless, I am, in fact, still holding out for Moenghus-Ascended.
But I feel like if people were upset about Cnaiur as "possible fan-service," they are going to lose it if Meppa is Moenghus the Elder.
Lmao. Readers.
Madness, I missed the part where Kellhus told Proyas he made a mistake killing Moe. Did he say why he thought it was a mistake?
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I will find the page when I get home.
It's from a Kellhus POV and I'm thinking it's chapter four just before Kell-yas or Proy-hus happens. Something about (and paraphrasing) "in my disorder I listened to the voices when they told me to kill my father."
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I will find the page when I get home.
It's from a Kellhus POV and I'm thinking it's chapter four just before Kell-yas or Proy-hus happens. Something about (and paraphrasing) "in my disorder I listened to the voices when they told me to kill my father."
Indeed:
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
“Please … I-I …”
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
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“I killed my own father,” the Place said
-Chapter 4, TGO
It's interesting, because Kellhus doesn't actually say it was an outright mistake, as I had taken it the first time reading it. No, he says the voice told him to do it and he listened. He then says the voice is not sane. So, he feels he acted on behalf of the insane voice.
So, a mistake? Not necessarily. He is lamenting the insanity of listening to the voice. He is telling Proyas how far beyond any temporal morality he is. To kill his father on the whim of an insane voice which he knows not the source of (but he does, really)? To enact a plan based on a knowingly insane voice while not understanding it's source or it's ends (but, again, he actually does)? This is the show for Proyas. To show him it isn't divinity. Kellhus knows full well that it is himself speaking to him. He knows full well why he is speaking to himself. He might be somewhat confused at times, he might doubt the vision or the voice, because no doubt the treads is tells him to pull are disparate and seemingly nonsensical. The fact remains that the voice knows.
Consider further the insanity of believing that the voice could know this. The voice could only know this if everything already happened, yet, it only happened because the voice knew and told Kellhus. So, both are contingent on each other. How could one have happened first? It couldn't. So, there is the insane idea that everything happened at the same time? That it happened backwards? That time, or cause, is bi-directional?
He is my theory, while on the Circumfix, Kellhus is open to the Outside, to the Absolute, through the cipher of Serwe. The voice he hears is his own. The visions he sees are himself. Why is the voice insane? Because it is telling him things outside causality, it is telling him what will happen before it happens. This is because the voice already knows what happens, because it has all already happened. Recall Akka's words to Cnaiur, that madness is the Outside leaking inward. Key word there, mad. Kellhus even tells us he is mad for having listened to the voice. In reality he had no choice. He is a pawn of himself as much as everyone is a pawn of him (they are all pawns of The Thousandfold Thought). He never had a choice to resist the voice.
This is why he is now beyond himself. This is why there is no "true" Kellhus. This is why he can be "weary" of all this and yet still exacting it all. Why he can feel emotions but not be moved by them. Why he is The Place called Kellhus. Kellhus is no more just a man with a plan. He is a vessel through which the plan is driven, in his own words, "the Place, the point of maximal convergence."
This is also why the Consult cannot out-think him. Their anticipation is already anticipated. Their plans to foil TTT is already part of TTT. They can't win.
OK, I think I might be a little off the rails now...
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You're a mad man H! But, that sounds plausible. I don't believe it, not explained like that at least, but I see something like that being close to the truth.
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You're a mad man H! But, that sounds plausible. I don't believe it, not explained like that at least, but I see something like that being close to the truth.
Wilshire, what's even greater he has to admit that Kellhus had emotions and that he is weary. But, he is weary because of the TTT. It's a plan he has to inact and will not finish until he does. By now, Kellhus just wants to set on the shores of the Cherish Sea and enjoy some Anpoi, have some meat, and have Esmi and Proyas join him in the Umbilicus.
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I'm also a proponent of "Moenghus the Elder is more than he seemed" thing but I would likewise be satisfied if we never learn any more than we do now and Kellhus extinguished all those possibilities in error out of madness. It would fit the themes of the series.
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Meppa is there to teach the Psukhe to Kelmomas and Samarmas, who will sing (or think really loud, in this case) with six voices at once using the meta-meta-Psukhe and their conjoined souls.
lol, now i'm imagining that Moenghus pulls a Shauriatas, fuses together Cishaurim souls
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Lmao.
Honestly, I'll say again - I was a huge proponent of the "there's more to Moenghus the Elder" theories, though I'm largely sated by Kellhus admitting to Proyas that he killed his father in error. Regardless, I am, in fact, still holding out for Moenghus-Ascended.
Where was this? I'm on a re-read but am missing this (the mistake of killing his father).
Cheers.
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Lmao.
Honestly, I'll say again - I was a huge proponent of the "there's more to Moenghus the Elder" theories, though I'm largely sated by Kellhus admitting to Proyas that he killed his father in error. Regardless, I am, in fact, still holding out for Moenghus-Ascended.
Where was this? I'm on a re-read but am missing this (the mistake of killing his father).
Cheers.
See my post right below Madness' (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2002.msg30616#msg30616), Kellhus never explicitly states that it was a mistake, as I had mistakenly taken it to be the first time I read it.
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I will find the page when I get home.
It's from a Kellhus POV and I'm thinking it's chapter four just before Kell-yas or Proy-hus happens. Something about (and paraphrasing) "in my disorder I listened to the voices when they told me to kill my father."
Indeed:
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
“Please … I-I …”
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
...
“I killed my own father,” the Place said
-Chapter 4, TGO
It's interesting, because Kellhus doesn't actually say it was an outright mistake, as I had taken it the first time reading it. No, he says the voice told him to do it and he listened. He then says the voice is not sane. So, he feels he acted on behalf of the insane voice.
So, a mistake? Not necessarily. He is lamenting the insanity of listening to the voice. He is telling Proyas how far beyond any temporal morality he is. To kill his father on the whim of an insane voice which he knows not the source of (but he does, really)? To enact a plan based on a knowingly insane voice while not understanding it's source or it's ends (but, again, he actually does)? This is the show for Proyas. To show him it isn't divinity. Kellhus knows full well that it is himself speaking to him. He knows full well why he is speaking to himself. He might be somewhat confused at times, he might doubt the vision or the voice, because no doubt the treads is tells him to pull are disparate and seemingly nonsensical. The fact remains that the voice knows.
Consider further the insanity of believing that the voice could know this. The voice could only know this if everything already happened, yet, it only happened because the voice knew and told Kellhus. So, both are contingent on each other. How could one have happened first? It couldn't. So, there is the insane idea that everything happened at the same time? That it happened backwards? That time, or cause, is bi-directional?
He is my theory, while on the Circumfix, Kellhus is open to the Outside, to the Absolute, through the cipher of Serwe. The voice he hears is his own. The visions he sees are himself. Why is the voice insane? Because it is telling him things outside causality, it is telling him what will happen before it happens. This is because the voice already knows what happens, because it has all already happened. Recall Akka's words to Cnaiur, that madness is the Outside leaking inward. Key word there, mad. Kellhus even tells us he is mad for having listened to the voice. In reality he had no choice. He is a pawn of himself as much as everyone is a pawn of him (they are all pawns of The Thousandfold Thought). He never had a choice to resist the voice.
This is why he is now beyond himself. This is why there is no "true" Kellhus. This is why he can be "weary" of all this and yet still exacting it all. Why he can feel emotions but not be moved by them. Why he is The Place called Kellhus. Kellhus is no more just a man with a plan. He is a vessel through which the plan is driven, in his own words, "the Place, the point of maximal convergence."
This is also why the Consult cannot out-think him. Their anticipation is already anticipated. Their plans to foil TTT is already part of TTT. They can't win.
OK, I think I might be a little off the rails now...
Goddamnit H; I like your fan theories
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Goddamnit H; I like your fan theories
Insidious, huh? Against my own will I like them too, ;)