The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 02:12:05 pm

Title: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 02:12:05 pm
The second serie is over, now we have to wait for TNG.
But to be honest I would be fine with TUC being the last book (even if all my question about the metaphysic of Earwa are not even close to be answered)!

So I would like to have your opinion about the end, who liked it, who didn't?
Would you have prefered a good ending? A worst one? And speaking about good/bad (reading, in accord or not with your personal values), what do you think would be the worst, the consult winning, Ajokli winning, another god winning, Kellhus doing something on his own, anything else (feel free to rewrite the end of the book ;D) ?

I have to say, I was really happy when I read the GR part, I was already imagining some Kellhus/Ajokli fusion devoring souls in an hellish Earwa! Kellhus saying fuck to the Logos and embrassing godhood with the help of Ajokli somehow.
But then Kelmomas came and fucked it all. I was kinda disappointed, espacially about Kellhus being dead (maybe?) as it was my fav character. But as the days go, I start to enjoy the end much more and the return of the No-God is a great ending too.

I like the way Bakker offered two possible outcome, and that both of them are "bad". Either Kellhus/Ajokli turn Earwa to hell, or the consult kill millions of people to save themselve (and a few undred thousand lucky bastards). All in all, freaking great serie of books!

And another question for fun, how would you like TNG to end? With the consult winning? Or with the gods devouring souls since the end of times?
I trust Bakker to make it epic anyhow.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 06, 2018, 05:08:04 pm
Possible/plausible endings to TUC.

Lawful-Good Kellhus wins: he defeats the consults, learns some more magic, goes to the outside, defeats all evil, and the universe is saved - permanent heaven on earth (and everywhere else).
This is the version that people who think Kellhus is the good guy want/expect - at least as far as I can tell. IMO, this is the worst possible ending for the series as a whole. Really ruins everything. "Happily Ever After" is not the correct ending for The Second Apocalypse lol.

Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins: Kellhus defeats consult, learns all the tekne things, leaves Earwa behind to its own demise and goes into the Outside, learns/conquers all the things there (turning it upside down in the process) and move on.
This the the "Kellhus is a means" accumulating machine" ending (the phrase coming form Bakker to describe what Kellhus is): accumulating means (power) for the sake of accumulation and no other purpose. This ending is uninteresting to me. You basically are left with everything Kellhus touches is consumed and left in ruins and the world(s) just kind of move on 'business as usual' and rebuilds, goes back the way it was, whatever. I don't think this makes for much of an ending.

Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins: Creates permanent hell on Earwa, turns the remaining consult into his horseman of the apocalypse (and/or angels of death), suffering without end for all time ensues.
This is the only ending I can see with Ajokli as the absolute winner. Kind of depressing, doesn't make sense for the story as a whole, and is way to clear cut. Nothing in TSA has been so clearly "evil wins, good loses" or vise versa.

New Consult wins: This is what happened. Things are left in flux. Its now a story about men struggling against men for human ends. The Consult now strive to shut the world against the gods. Not sure this is a bad things - the gods are all terrible, but the price is so high. The rest of humanity will strive against them. Whether they know it or not, its the choice about whether or not the cost is too high. Is the price to save humanity from eternal damnation worth damning (eternally) those who must be sacrificed? Can humanity even destroy the Consult now?

This ending is the one that happened and the one that makes sense. IMO, its the perfect ending. It fits all the plot elements, leaves things in a sort of perpetual uncertainty, and leaves open the door for more story to continue. None of the other options leave room for anything significant to happen. Kellhus winning and saving humanity is too much a fairy tale option and doesn't make any sense, and Ajoki winning flat out and turning reality into hell itself is just too depressing.

So yeah, I thought the ending was great in that it fits perfectly. No other option, either above or presented by anyone else, makes any sense given the story we have.

On that note, whether Bakker never publishes another book again or if he writes a whole book every year until he dies, I don't think there will be any more 'conclusion' than what we have here. This is how Earwa will exist, forever an unanswered, unsolvable mystery. We can get more books, more world building, more information, more plots and story lines, more striving against impossible odds, but I don't believe we will ever know the final fate of Earwa.

Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TaoHorror on March 06, 2018, 05:46:44 pm
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 06:22:05 pm
Possible/plausible endings to TUC.

Lawful-Good Kellhus wins: he defeats the consults, learns some more magic, goes to the outside, defeats all evil, and the universe is saved - permanent heaven on earth (and everywhere else).
This is the version that people who think Kellhus is the good guy want/expect - at least as far as I can tell. IMO, this is the worst possible ending for the series as a whole. Really ruins everything. "Happily Ever After" is not the correct ending for The Second Apocalypse lol.

Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins: Kellhus defeats consult, learns all the tekne things, leaves Earwa behind to its own demise and goes into the Outside, learns/conquers all the things there (turning it upside down in the process) and move on.
This the the "Kellhus is a means" accumulating machine" ending (the phrase coming form Bakker to describe what Kellhus is): accumulating means (power) for the sake of accumulation and no other purpose. This ending is uninteresting to me. You basically are left with everything Kellhus touches is consumed and left in ruins and the world(s) just kind of move on 'business as usual' and rebuilds, goes back the way it was, whatever. I don't think this makes for much of an ending.

Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins: Creates permanent hell on Earwa, turns the remaining consult into his horseman of the apocalypse (and/or angels of death), suffering without end for all time ensues.
This is the only ending I can see with Ajokli as the absolute winner. Kind of depressing, doesn't make sense for the story as a whole, and is way to clear cut. Nothing in TSA has been so clearly "evil wins, good loses" or vise versa.

New Consult wins: This is what happened. Things are left in flux. Its now a story about men struggling against men for human ends. The Consult now strive to shut the world against the gods. Not sure this is a bad things - the gods are all terrible, but the price is so high. The rest of humanity will strive against them. Whether they know it or not, its the choice about whether or not the cost is too high. Is the price to save humanity from eternal damnation worth damning (eternally) those who must be sacrificed? Can humanity even destroy the Consult now?

This ending is the one that happened and the one that makes sense. IMO, its the perfect ending. It fits all the plot elements, leaves things in a sort of perpetual uncertainty, and leaves open the door for more story to continue. None of the other options leave room for anything significant to happen. Kellhus winning and saving humanity is too much a fairy tale option and doesn't make any sense, and Ajoki winning flat out and turning reality into hell itself is just too depressing.

So yeah, I thought the ending was great in that it fits perfectly. No other option, either above or presented by anyone else, makes any sense given the story we have.

On that note, whether Bakker never publishes another book again or if he writes a whole book every year until he dies, I don't think there will be any more 'conclusion' than what we have here. This is how Earwa will exist, forever an unanswered, unsolvable mystery. We can get more books, more world building, more information, more plots and story lines, more striving against impossible odds, but I don't believe we will ever know the final fate of Earwa.

>Lawful-Good Kellhus wins
For me it doesn't make much sens anyway as Kellhus is never shown as someone with moral values. Plus, too many good ending in kids movies/books/series, I have a hard time being satisfied by it now.

>Neutral/Neutral Kellhus wins and Chaotic Evil Ajokli wins
I would love those endings if the serie was finnished.
Kellhus doing what he was born to do, even if it make no sens and have no ends. Most nihilistic ending possible in a meaningful world! I like the irony of it while here people look for meaning in a meaningless world.
Or Ajokli winning, the one nobody thought about while the ordeal was going against the consult. Everything just go wild and an evil god take control, the end being worse than anything else anybody in Earwa imagined.

But yes, that ending was the only one fiting a third trilogy (dualogy?). And that's why I like it more and more as time goes. But still sad Kellhus had to die. Go go go Paul Atreides... I mean Kellhus!
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 06:24:44 pm
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 06, 2018, 06:27:38 pm
Hey no worries, Paul dies. Its Letto's Golden Path  after all ;) . Several discussion around here about potential connection between Dune and TSA, btw.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !

I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 06:45:44 pm
I discovered TSA while looking for books similar to Dune after I finnished the last book, so it doesn't surprise me.
Probably my favorite scifi story with Peter Watts Firefall series!
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 06, 2018, 06:57:50 pm
Dune is superb scifi, and though I've only read Watts' Blindsight I'd agree that he's great as well. I'd put Hyperion (The Hyperion Cantos is 4 books) at the top of my list though, if you are looking for some scifi to read.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 06, 2018, 07:12:41 pm
I liked hyperion but not as much, and I couldn't force myself to read Endymion, I stopped after the first book for some reason. 
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MSJ on March 06, 2018, 08:11:24 pm
Quote from:  Jabberwock
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.

I always expected and want the same type of ending. In don't see it at all being happy, but rather bleak, but humans prevailing and having chance to rebuild civilization. I know others have expressed your sentiments, id just like to hear your opinion on why you don't/expect a "happy" ending.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MSJ on March 06, 2018, 08:15:48 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.

Just go ahead and say it Wilshire. MSJ is a sentimental wank and doesn't get what Bakker is doing. He's a hopeless romantic that tossed around the idea that Kellhus loved Esmenet (his only darkness). :)
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TaoHorror on March 07, 2018, 12:57:50 am
I honestly don't have expectations for the next books. I love being surprised, so while I have speculated as to what happens next and detailed an alternative ending ( I think I did, not so good researching old threads ), I'm not emotionally attached to the story "ending", doesn't have to satisfy me. I put myself in Bakker's hands and look forward to more, whatever it may be.

That all said, it's fun to speculate, if for no other reason it's fun to look back on what we think is happening to see how far off we were. As opposed to "outcome", I would like to see more Consult POV and enjoy flashbacks to their history so we can see how they perceived events, etc.

I love TUC ending as is, wouldn't change it. If I wrote the ending myself, not knowing how it ends, I would have had Kullhus find the loose thread of reality and pull it, undoing the 100 and refashioning reality were humans have a real chance at growth and salvation in that the gods have been holding us back. I had a detailed guess at what happens next, but still writing left handed from my wrist surgery, so taxing at the moment to reference it.

I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one. I have difficulty understanding how someone reading fantasy that grimdark could want that, but it's nice to see everybody have different expectations about the same story  ;D !

Not that it matters, but for clarity, I'm not pulling for any "type" of ending - just answering if I wrote the ending, what it would be. Of the options offered, I like Bakker's ending best as it's not the worst, nor the best that could've happened which is great irony as the dread of TNG appearing through all the books turns out wasn't the worst possibility - something even worse was underfoot.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 07, 2018, 09:10:08 am
Quote from:  Jabberwock
I have to admit I would find it disappointing to have an happy ending in a world and a story like this one.

I always expected and want the same type of ending. In don't see it at all being happy, but rather bleak, but humans prevailing and having chance to rebuild civilization. I know others have expressed your sentiments, id just like to hear your opinion on why you don't/expect a "happy" ending.

I don't say it'll not happen, but it's clearly not the feeling the books gave me for now. through my reading, I had the impression that the world is realistic (for a fantasy world ... let's say coherent), and "happy ending" is not what I see when I look at resolution of real world problems. I see it like we do as well as we can to save the day while still being selfish people. And for me the book show that pretty well.
So I think we will have a bittersweet ending from Bakker.

On a personal level, I find it hard to find really "bad ending" novels/movies. And I think Bakker series would be a great place to have things totally fucked up by the people trying to do there best! Like Achamian damning every human beings forever while trying to fight the No-God, dunno.
(click to show/hide)

Moderator Edit: Spoiler Tag title
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 07, 2018, 12:50:18 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I think you'll be continuously surprised at the variety of people and perspectives you find here, should you stick around for a bit.

Just go ahead and say it Wilshire. MSJ is a sentimental wank and doesn't get what Bakker is doing. He's a hopeless romantic that tossed around the idea that Kellhus loved Esmenet (his only darkness). :)
lol
We've all got our things and I value your opinions :) .
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TaoHorror on March 07, 2018, 03:00:52 pm
lol
We've all got our things and I value your opinions :) .

You're going to take that sitting down, MSJ?! A clear insult if there ever was one!  >:(
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MSJ on March 07, 2018, 03:04:55 pm
I don't think there's too much there, I have to ease off the pedal every once in awhile... ;)
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 07, 2018, 03:53:57 pm
You're going to take that sitting down, MSJ?! A clear insult if there ever was one!  >:(
:'( I'm so misunderstood.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MSJ on March 07, 2018, 04:00:26 pm
Quote
:'( I'm so misunderstood.

I understood ya buddy. ;)
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Dora Vee on March 07, 2018, 11:03:44 pm
Whether or not an ending bothers me simply depends on the story itself. I do tend to expect happy endings in safe, traditional games like Dragon Quest. I DO NOT expect it in more nuanced games, like Skyrim or Final Fantasy(FFX, for example, is actually bittersweet). Happy endings in grimdark would really be one hell of a subversion, imo, unless they are very much earned.

Given how Kellhus made is pretty damned clear that he wanted to possess, like every one, a happy ending in THE SECOND APOCALYPSE would most likely be a esoteric sort of happy ending. So, even if Kellhus DID succeed in stopping the Consult, unless something was done about Damnation, I can't help but think that not much would change beyond that, especially if he knows that those that he wants "saved" would be saved. The Ciphrang would be just another tool. Hell just another kingdom to rule. Every one would be equally enslaved, except poor Achamian, I bet.

I think TUC ending in general was pretty damned fitting and certainly NOT bittersweet, despite some survivors. "Downer ending" certainly fits and I LIKE IT(yea, for the wrong reasons, but still...)! An ideal ending just plain wouldn't happen and I know that. I do, however, agree that an Ajokli ending would have been appalling and would pretty much be the actual end.

As for TNG itself, I can't see it being anything other than bittersweet, with heavy emphasis on the bitter.



Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 08, 2018, 02:44:30 am
Since you asked, Jabberwock03.....

I'm broadly in the "Lawful/Good" camp (thanks to Wilshire for the breakdown) in that I've always been rooting for the prevention of the Second Apocalypse. So, the catastrophic ending of TUC was hugely disappointing for me.

My hopes for the final series is for some surviving force in Eärwa to find a way to defeat the Consult and the No-God. It was done once before, after all. But this time, the Ark itself needs to be destroyed.

I'm not very hopeful that any of these goals can be achieved. Nor am I very hopeful that any of these goals are even of any concern to Bakker. His goal in writing this series is unclear to me at this point. But hey, wait and see.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 08, 2018, 07:20:45 am
I'm not sure that to defeat the Consult before the outside is closed would be an "happy ending" as people of Earwa would still be damned for ever.
And I'm not sure not defeating it would be "happy" either as million of souls have to be damned for it to happen.

So, great world building, with no "happy ending" in sight! I love it!
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: JerakoKayne on March 08, 2018, 09:35:49 am
I honestly think Kellhus has found some Path he believes to be his route to the Absolute (his first and primary mission, before any exile), and outside the track of other mortals.

For the rest of what he's done, I think the "truth" can be found in asking whether what Kell is doing is actually altruistic or not. Certainly many of his followers believe it, and so do many readers! But I don't honestly think he has ever been saving anyone in the entire world other than himself.

The orthodox Dunyain believe they'll find the Absolute via Techne. Kellhus believes he has found it through Gnosis/(greater Earwan metaphysics).

None of the rest of anyone else, or what happened to any of them matter in the slightest.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 08, 2018, 10:19:39 am
I agree, I think too that Kellhus doesn't care at all about Earwa and saving it, and he want to prevent resumption only because it fit his own goals, whatever they are (most likely, accumulation of means).
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 08, 2018, 12:57:11 pm
...
Interesting, I wouldn't have expected that from you. Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?
Also FFX is my favorite of the series. Closely followed by VII probably.

"Lawful/Good" camp (thanks to Wilshire for the breakdown).
This is what I was kind of going with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
If you weren't aware of the classic D&D alignment chart. I'm not super familiar with it myself, never played, but I think I got it right. There might be other characters/endings that match up with that.

I honestly think Kellhus has found some Path he believes to be his route to the Absolute (his first and primary mission, before any exile), and outside the track of other mortals.
The True Neutral stance is a tempting one. Given out of text discussion from Bakker, I'd say this is a pretty likely scenario. Given the in book worldbuilding and story as written, I don't think this can be case. Kellhus spent an awful lot of time doing things that a 'normal' dunyain wouldn't - whatever he was, he was a madman.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
I'd add to this that a reoccurring theme is that people end up creating their own demise. So not only are most people not in control (despite thinking otherwise), they also end up creating the situation that leads to their fall.

What a great series
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MSJ on March 08, 2018, 02:21:27 pm
Quote from:  Jabberwock
So, great world building, with no "happy ending" in sight! I love it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Not true. There is the possibility that Kellhus wars with the Gods and rewrites the rules of the Outside (damnation/salvation), and Akka and Mimara find a way to defeat TNG. Its a plausible outcome and well within the setting of the story. I seriously have my doubts Bakker goes that way.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on March 08, 2018, 02:24:36 pm
I highly doubt that's likely, but yeah in theory why not.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Dora Vee on March 08, 2018, 03:39:48 pm
"Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?"

No. After the rage quit, I simply looked ahead to the end. I read spoilers too. I loved FFX too. AND X-2. :)
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 08, 2018, 03:55:28 pm
"Did you end up finishing it post-rage-quit?"

No. After the rage quit, I simply looked ahead to the end. I read spoilers too. I loved FFX too. AND X-2. :)
You should finish it!
Ever kill the Dark Aeons and Penance? I lost steam trying to farm ribbons from one of them (valfour I think), after I spent all the time to max out all their stats lol. Something about doing max damage every attack gets old after a few dozen hours.
X-2 was ... something. Got all the summons and all the way to the end, though I might have stopped without killing the final boss, can't really remember. I don't think I liked it terribly much, but hey who didn't like the scenery
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Dora Vee on March 08, 2018, 06:22:35 pm
Quote
You should finish it!

It's unlikely I ever will.

As for FFX, I didn't really bother with many of the extras. FF8 was the only one where I did everything.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: MisterGuyMan on March 18, 2018, 11:33:20 pm
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.

I want the series to end with Outside Kellhus revealed and he used his own past self as a pawn.  Basically Kell used himself just like he used Proyas.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TaoHorror on March 19, 2018, 02:59:44 pm
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.

I want the series to end with Outside Kellhus revealed and he used his own past self as a pawn.  Basically Kell used himself just like he used Proyas.

Manipulation yields chaos, so it'll be fun to read what all unintended consequences arise in the next reads.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TLEILAXU on March 19, 2018, 10:51:53 pm
Ugh, time paradoxes... oh well, it ain't much worse than "Ajokli caused it all" or "Kellhus will remove the Consult and Damnation and everything will be happy everafter"  :)
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 11:39:07 am
Ugh, time paradoxes...
Agreed, lol. So hard to not make it seem contrived.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Walter on March 22, 2018, 03:02:53 pm
I honestly thought this WAS the end until I heard from the AMA that there would be another series.  I think this is a fine ending.  Not all worlds can be saved.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on March 30, 2018, 07:35:18 pm
Loved the book.  Loved the series.  Loved the ending.
Can't say I 'loved' it.  It made me go numb. But it was a great ending. :o

For the rest of what he's done, I think the "truth" can be found in asking whether what Kell is doing is actually altruistic or not. Certainly many of his followers believe it, and so do many readers! But I don't honestly think he has ever been saving anyone in the entire world other than himself.

The orthodox Dunyain believe they'll find the Absolute via Techne. Kellhus believes he has found it through Gnosis/(greater Earwan metaphysics).

None of the rest of anyone else, or what happened to any of them matter in the slightest.

Bakker's books are about people who have been used for ends they will never know anything about.
That's the big question.  Is Kellhus in it for himself, or for everybody else? :-\

My hopes for the final series is for some surviving force in Eärwa to find a way to defeat the Consult and the No-God. It was done once before, after all. But this time, the Ark itself needs to be destroyed.
Or the No-God turns out to be something we (and the Consult) are not expecting :D

Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Francis Buck on May 03, 2018, 10:05:55 pm
I'm of two minds about the future of the series. I absolutely think that there is still a lot of story to be told, but I think RSB deliberately wrote TUC to be a sort of "ending just in-case", which is also where I think some (not all) of the ambiguity comes from. I do think certain things which are currently ambiguous will be resolved in TNG, though attempting to pinpoint where and what and how is a fool's errand. However I believe RSB when he says that "we're just getting to the interesting stuff". It feels to me like the entire series has basically been an effort to get to this point, where the No-God is walking and there are Dunyain controlling the Consult and Kellhus has been felled and Earwa must now actually fight the Consult openly in the manner we've been teased with in the Dreams and such. It seems to me that only now is RSB capable of "playing with all his toys" in the sandbox he has spent 7 books creating.

In fact, I think he did such good job making TUC seem like "the ultimate ending of everything" that some folks underestimate what remains of the story, and I also think that it's just hard for folks to imagine a story without Kellhus at the center of things (whether you like him or not), even though it seems clear that this has long been the plan of RSB and there yet remain many elements of the overall story to be told. Additionally, it seems to me that because we got generally got less metaphysical-type revelations than perhaps we expected in TUC (even though there are plenty, and TGO is chock-full of them), then that means there are no more to be had, which I believe is a bit misguided. While I fully expect to always be left with multiple interpretations and ambiguities, I don't think that immediately translates to there being no more revelations left whatsoever.

Really, I think one of the biggest things that makes it hard to get a signal for what is entailed in the next series is that Bakker himself does not fully know what is entailed for it, but clearly he has intentionally left himself more than enough plot elements to be be used as springboards.

Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 03, 2018, 10:21:38 pm
I must say, this is a very concise way of putting it.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2018, 04:19:37 pm
Some interesting thoughts there FB.

You know, if TSA was supposed to be something of an inversion of LOTR or fantasy et al, TUC ends right where the Ring gets destroyed. Obviously, in our case here the Ring isn't so much destroyed as handed directing to Sauron. This means that the story hasn't ended, it has just began.

This obviously creates confusion, since this Beginning is also The End. As you neatly pointed out, we don't know which bits exactly are ended, and which are starting. The entire story structure remains pretty ambiguous without TNG to bookend things, much the same way that PON reads much differently without TAE.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 06, 2018, 08:30:45 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on August 07, 2018, 02:12:20 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Cuttlefish on August 07, 2018, 06:38:19 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:56:49 pm
Well Akka is alive, and he was probably my personal favorite, so I can't compare my experience to yours directly.
But I do think that the intent would be to start TNG on something of a clean slate.

But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 08, 2018, 01:34:35 am
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
I feel like I am the kind of reader that's not in it for the story. But I concur, without there actually being serious original thought, TSA would be unreadable. The same happens when you don't care about any kind of original thought or don't get it for whatever reason (this is not a criticism).

I'm also pretty sure Bakker's aware of this unfortunate reality, but it's what he wants to tell, there is nothing to be done.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 08, 2018, 02:42:48 am
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily  8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TaoHorror on August 08, 2018, 02:52:11 am
But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
What do you mean by "simple enjoyment" though? Classic storytelling endings where Kellhus destroys the Consult and conquers the Gods and everybody lives happily  8) ? I mean I enjoy the series, but I'm not sure if my enjoyment qualifies as simple. How do I simply enjoy Bakker?

There are many dimensions to the experience of reading, joy being one of them. Why a scholar may well spend her spare time reading "trash" novels ... for the fun of it. I'm likely the worst kind of Bakker fan - I REALLY enjoyed reading them in light of me not understanding so much of it on my own ( if not for this group, I would have a very different/wrong take on what's going on ). Bakker's description of "evil" ( for lack of a better term ) is unparalleled in my book ( forgive the pun ). I would re-read sections that depict some awesomely mad stuff. I love the reads as those who love terror movies do - for the violence, for the depravity, for the madness. I loved the ending of TUC, it completely blew my mind, so cool, so unanticipated for me. Intrigue and surprise ( that makes sense ) are an author's best weapons in his arsenal and Bakker leverages these tools beautifully as no author I've read before. This stuff is magic to me. The art of it amazes.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Wilshire on August 08, 2018, 12:16:25 pm
By 'simple enjoyment' I probably mean something akin to mass appeal.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: Jabberwock03 on August 14, 2018, 02:09:49 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...

I can't really relate to this. I hardly ever invest myself in the characters of books. I read books more for the story, I mean the events happening, than for the people doing the things.
I can like or dislike a character, but in either case I like following them as long as it's not boring.
Title: Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 14, 2018, 02:28:11 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...

I can't really relate to this. I hardly ever invest myself in the characters of books. I read books more for the story, I mean the events happening, than for the people doing the things.
I can like or dislike a character, but in either case I like following them as long as it's not boring.
I can relate a lot. For example, I would've never made it through God-Emperor of Dune if I didn't know (by spoiling the story a little bit) that the Tleilaxu would have a significant role to play in book 5 of the series. In TSA, I was really looking forward to finally getting to meet and talk to Shaeönanra (outside of The False Sun of course), so of course some dreams were shattered when it turned out he had died off-screen. Luckily for me, Bakker replaced him with some perhaps even more insane characters, The Mutilated!