Earwa > The No-God

The Heart

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mrganondorf:
I bet someone has brought this up before, but I'm wondering if the heart used in The Grasping is actually Nau-Cayuti's.  It's always been a bit weird to think about Seswatha performing this ritual--doing complicated magic while passing out from blood loss and making a heart like that might have been beyond the power of any remaining sorcerers.

Here's how it would work: Seswatha is there when Mog is struck down.  He scoops up the heart in the aftermath wreckage, both out of love for NC (and maybe Ses didn't find out that Mog was NC until just then--for all we know NC is not dead but dying and passes on some last words to Ses which would make for a tragic repitition of his father's battlefield death) and to prevent the Consult from remaking Mog (if he assumes they need this bit).  Then Ses could ctrl+c, ctrl+v his soul into NC's heart later on.

This would explain why Akka is getting memories from both dudes and may offer a glimmer of hope for humanity.  Akka or some other Mandati like Serwa might be able to glean some secret about the inner workings of the Carapace and use this in battle.  The Mutilated are as vulnerable to ignorance as anyone else, if there is any hope against them it will come out of the darkness that surrounds those four.  There's no reason to think that they would anticipate this development and a constant theme in Bakker is pervasive finitude--no one ever premeditates everything.  It's just not possible.

P.S. On the possibility that NC has a death scene like his dad's -- right after the carapace is broken, the gods are back in Earwa and that would be the perfect moment for someone (like NC) to have a vision witnessing their return.

ThoughtsOfThelli:

--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 04, 2018, 08:47:08 pm ---I bet someone has brought this up before, but I'm wondering if the heart used in The Grasping is actually Nau-Cayuti's.  It's always been a bit weird to think about Seswatha performing this ritual--doing complicated magic while passing out from blood loss and making a heart like that might have been beyond the power of any remaining sorcerers.
--- End quote ---

An intriguing theory, MG.
I always assumed that Seswatha died after a long illness or something (as in, did not die suddenly and unexpectedly and had time to prepare), and the sorcerous ritual was performed by him (and probably some of his fellow Mandati) right before he died. As soon as he was dead, his heart would be turned into the artifact we know (thus no actual removal of the heart while he was still alive needed).



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 04, 2018, 08:47:08 pm ---Here's how it would work: Seswatha is there when Mog is struck down.  He scoops up the heart in the aftermath wreckage, both out of love for NC (and maybe Ses didn't find out that Mog was NC until just then--for all we know NC is not dead but dying and passes on some last words to Ses which would make for a tragic repitition of his father's battlefield death) and to prevent the Consult from remaking Mog (if he assumes they need this bit).  Then Ses could ctrl+c, ctrl+v his soul into NC's heart later on.
--- End quote ---

I've speculated about Seswatha possibly knowing Nau-Cayûti had been used to activate the No-God before. Even if it went down like you said - he found out after the No-God was defeated - it would still be a very tragic moment.
I'm inclined to believe the theory (that I've seen discussed before) that the Heron Spear worked by killing the Insertant (Nau-Cayûti in this case) - or what was left of him in any case - and deactivating the No-God entirely (and not due to any special property it happened to have itself). But who knows? We have never seen the aftermath of the destruction of the No-God via a Dream, it could be he was still (barely) alive. And sure, a sorcerous rite to place a soul in a human heart would presumably be easier if the heart belonged to someone other than the person performing the rite.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 04, 2018, 08:47:08 pm ---This would explain why Akka is getting memories from both dudes and may offer a glimmer of hope for humanity.  Akka or some other Mandati like Serwa might be able to glean some secret about the inner workings of the Carapace and use this in battle.  The Mutilated are as vulnerable to ignorance as anyone else, if there is any hope against them it will come out of the darkness that surrounds those four.  There's no reason to think that they would anticipate this development and a constant theme in Bakker is pervasive finitude--no one ever premeditates everything.  It's just not possible.

P.S. On the possibility that NC has a death scene like his dad's -- right after the carapace is broken, the gods are back in Earwa and that would be the perfect moment for someone (like NC) to have a vision witnessing their return.

--- End quote ---

A good theory on Akka's Dreams from Nau-Cayûti's POV. I think that, as of now, the leading theory is that the POV shift was probably due to Nau-Cayûti indeed being Seswatha's biological son. With your theory, the Celmomas POV in Akka's Dreams could be explained by him being the father of the person whose heart the Dreams originated from. The theory I mentioned previously doesn't really explain that particular POV...
I'm looking forward to seeing Dreams from Akka or Serwa's POVs (and ideally even from the POVs of other Mandati or Swayali who happened to survive the "salt and butchery") in TNG. No doubt that there would be significant changes at this moment, when they'd be more necessary than ever before (even if I also like stuslayer's "Kellhus Dreams" theory...shame that they seem to be mutually exclusive).
Very true, the Mutilated (and Dûnyain as a whole) are not infallible in any way. We saw this "Dûnyain infallibility fallacy" play out with Moënghus in PON and later with Kellhus in TAE. Dûnyain are extremely competent at predicting possibilities and manipulating people and events to their liking, but there are still factors they can not account for.

mrganondorf:
I like your posts ToT, been meaning to tell you.

I've speculated about Seswatha possibly knowing Nau-Cayûti had been used to activate the No-God before

Lol, the first time I read that through I thought you meant that Ses knew NC was a potential Mog before he was trapped in the Carapace.  That might suggest that Ses took NC with him to barter for the Heron Spear.  But that doesn't make any sense--why help create Mog that you need to destroy?  Tuesdays.

I bet you are right about the way Ses' life ended, but I admit the NC Heart theory as an alternative.  I wonder if the general lack of sorcerers post-Apocalypse meant that Ses had to recruit from the anagogic ranks to create the Mandate?

I think it was the Amiolas that got me thinking that the Heart could be NC's.  I was thinking that the procedure might be rare and difficult (a category above a Wathi doll or the blank souls in the door to the library) and that the Nonmen might have taught it to Ses alone.  Hell, I guess it's even possible that the Heart is (in a sense) a Nonman artifact.  Maybe Seswatha was given something, like a dagger, that when used on his heart would create artifact needed for the Grasping.

But back to the Amiolas.  I was thinking along these lines--it's weird how the Malcontent is sort of 'respawned' or something everytime a new human has to wear it.  Like every human that visits Ishterebinth and wears the Special Hat, becomes a new, faint, little copy.  As in, the portion of soul in the Amiolas is not diminished when used.

So as the Maker put the Malcontent's soul in the Amiolas, Someone X (maybe a nonman) could but Ses' soul in NC's Heart (where another soul already resided).

It would be kind of cool if NC get's revenge 2000 years later...maybe by killing New Mog, but maybe also by killing Aurax.

H:
Well, Seswatha would certainly have been familiar with the Amiolas, considering that he once wore it.  It wouldn't shock me if the Heart was actually another of Emilidis' creations, in the same ilk of the Amiolas.  In fact, Seswatha might never have died of any cause but being put into the Heart.  We don't actually know when Emilidis died.  Could have been after Seswatha, for all we know, means he could have made it.

I have to admit, the idea that it's NC's heart is neat and I like it for a number of reasons, not the least is how the No-God seems to be networked to soulless things and the Heart to souled things, but I don't know how probable it is.  Although the whole idea that the Consult recovered NC's body post-No God seems odd, but the whole Indigo Plague entry is suspicious as hell really.

SmilerLoki:

--- Quote from: H on June 05, 2018, 02:25:55 pm ---We don't actually know when Emilidis died.

--- End quote ---
The only evidence that Emilidis did, in fact, die is provided by a cunny-loving dragon, who might not be particularly sane, for that matter. It's the whole pesky size thing.

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