The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: robizeratul on July 15, 2016, 09:27:20 pm
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1) this is something from previous books...but why did the consult kill the emperor and his mother? What was the point? With him alive Kelhus' conquest would have been harder, no?
2)Did the Consult intervene in the Unification Wars? Where they working against Kellhus' ambition or just "camping"?
3)What "bad thing" happened during the unification wars? I remember a couple of characters mentioning this event, but I don't know what it is.
4)Why did Saubon die? was that the plan all along? Didn't Kellhus know he was in Danger there?
5)why did he rape the general?
6)What's up with the "tall" nonmen? are they simply giants? or is there something more here?
7)And the one "revelation" I didn't like...was the Dunyain reading souls. What was the point of all this training if they can just "read" souls? Or is this something only Kellhus(dunyain schoolman) can do ?
Did he start out noticing expressions and slowly started seeing souls? if so, why can't he "turn it of" ans simply see sorweels deception? Am I being deceived yet again? this doesn't make sense to me...
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1) this is something from previous books...but why did the consult kill the emperor and his mother? What was the point? With him alive Kelhus' conquest would have been harder, no?
2)Did the Consult intervene in the Unification Wars? Where they working against Kellhus' ambition or just "camping"?
3)What "bad thing" happened during the unification wars? I remember a couple of characters mentioning this event, but I don't know what it is.
4)Why did Saubon die? was that the plan all along? Didn't Kellhus know he was in Danger there?
5)why did he rape the general?
6)What's up with the "tall" nonmen? are they simply giants? or is there something more here?
7)And the one "revelation" I didn't like...was the Dunyain reading souls. What was the point of all this training if they can just "read" souls? Or is this something only Kellhus(dunyain schoolman) can do ?
Did he start out noticing expressions and slowly started seeing souls? if so, why can't he "turn it of" ans simply see sorweels deception? Am I being deceived yet again? this doesn't make sense to me...
1) The consult sent two skin spies to keep tabs on the emperor because they needed to keep the holy war in check. They probably never replaced him becasue he is never alone. Then the emperor puts the move on mommy and she, being a skinspy, is totally into it until he realizes she has a penis. He freaks out and she goes into damage control and kills him.
2) I don't recall anything concrete, but I don't see why the wouldn't.
3) Probably the standard atrocities of war, see they First Holy war for examples.
4) Saubon died because he couldn't get away from the nuke. It fit Kellhus plan to get Proyas into a position to lead the holy war and make all those decisions. Saubon no doubt would have fought with Proyas for control. Whether Kellhus knew about the nuke or just seized the opportunity to sacrifice Saubon so Proyas could keep following the condition ground Kellhus made for him.
5) To condition Proyas to lead the Great Ordeal without him. See answer 4.
6) There is a refrence that great nonmen never stop growing. Apparently, it wasn't a metaphor but literal.
7) Kellhus has walked paths no other Dunyain has. And Kellhus couldn't see Sorweel because Yatwar has god-entangled him, the way the WLW has uneering grace and maybe so does Kelmomas.
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Yeah, Khellus buggering Proyas is just the final act in how he breaks him down. It's the least of the absolute mind-rape he suffers. I thought it was great; a strong metaphor for disillusionment in faith that resonates in its contemporary relevance.
Resignation in the face of being bumfucked by faithless leaders before they will put you in charge.
Note that when he goes to Saubon afterwards, there's is a probable catamite already in Saubon's chamber - so the act serves as a lesson to Saubon as well.
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I think the jury is still out on what Kellhus sees in Sorwheel. One of the interesting excerpts pitted the Dunyain observations of Serwa and the cunning but vanilla human intuitions of Moënghus. The entire ride there, Serwe/Moënghus were supposed to get Sorwheel to hate them so he would could, for the Niom, as an enemy. Serwe, reliant on her Dunyain senses, was continually baffled by Sorwheel's actions the argued for his hate but kept concluding Sorwheel loved them because of what she saw. Moënghus instinctively was able to understand that there's no deeper meaning here. Sorwheel hates them. It's very possible Kellhus knew this and this knew Sorwheel qualified as an enemy from the start.
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Good answers!
I think however it devalues the skills of the Dunayn. I liked the "reading faces" part, it seems human. It's something people can actually do, some are much better at it than others of course. Seeing every micro expression and trying to piece together what up is interesting.
"seeing souls" seems lame in comparison. 2000 years of Dunayn history and effort wasted. The whole room with the faces ( a really cool scene! ) is for nothing.
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Where does is it say that the Dunyain read souls? I thought that it meant that reading faces was reading souls because the two are intimintely connected, and for the worldborn the two could not be separated.
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Kellhus reads souls in so much as he reads how the soul moves the persons emotions, as exposed by even minute biological change (respiration, pulse, blush reflexm micro-expressions). He's not seeing their souls directly.
Whether Kellhus is fooled by Yatwar/Sorweel, Serwe is. I always took it that the goddess is putting some sort of mask, showing the responses to fool the Dunyain. Moenghus, not Dunyain, isn't able to see whatever Yatwar is. The fact that Kellhus tells Serwe she needs to make Sorweel hate them wouldn't be necessary if Kellhus didn't already see Sorweel's hatred, so while it's not confirmation it is points in that direction.
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7)And the one "revelation" I didn't like...was the Dunyain reading souls. What was the point of all this training if they can just "read" souls? Or is this something only Kellhus(dunyain schoolman) can do ?
Did he start out noticing expressions and slowly started seeing souls? if so, why can't he "turn it of" ans simply see sorweels deception? Am I being deceived yet again? this doesn't make sense to me...
The soul is read through the reading of faces. "Soul" here is an approximation of what makes a 'person'. Probably closer to 'unconscious mind'. There is no substantial difference between calling what the Dunyain do "soul reading" or "face reading" - maybe face reading combined with a bit of probability trance.
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4)Why did Saubon die? was that the plan all along? Didn't Kellhus know he was in Danger there?
5)why did he rape the general?
I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think... While he probably expected the Consult to throw a surprise, I don't believe that Kellhus predicted the nuke, it seemed to be one of the rare moments when he had to go into deep probability trance to figure the shortest path from this new scenario.
And the rape of Proyas was more to break down Saubon than Proyas, it seems.
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I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think...
Not to be contrary but I think Proyas was always the one chose to lead and Saubon was told only to support Proyas and get him through him crisis. Sevral times in Kellhus' pov he refers to Prosha as the first of his believer kings, his most beautiful follower and such. He said Proyas was the first human soul he had devoted his Full attention to in years. Kellhus even told Saubon that Proyas would need help to get through his turmoil.
Through all of this Saubon has taken the news far easier, so I wonder what choices will have to be made that Proyas can make that Saubon couldn't.
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I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think... While he probably expected the Consult to throw a surprise, I don't believe that Kellhus predicted the nuke, it seemed to be one of the rare moments when he had to go into deep probability trance to figure the shortest path from this new scenario.
I'm still of a mind Kellhus was prepping Saubon's soul for a transition to another specific purpose related to the Decapitants, in which Proyas might be next. I think I mentioned this in the Momemn thread, but I have no way to prove or disprove this.
EDIT: TBH I had this feeling based on the way he is described as being ruthless and without remorse/thinking about it by both Proyas and himself in the Aőrsi chapters, as well as the way Kellhus animates the Decapitant so soon after Saubon dies, with a flashback to Mengedda no less. Saubon was the very first to follow Kellhus's orders back then (to March against the Kianene and punish the Shrial Knights). Now, Saubon is ready for the next step. Proyas is not (yet) and is rebuked by Kellhus when he asks to lead the assault on Dagliash.
And the rape of Proyas was more to break down Saubon than Proyas, it seems.
Or possibly a two birds, one stone situation: Yes, Kellhus knows Proyas will mention this to Saubon, but the Aörsi passages from Kellhus's POV are clear about prepping Proyas for something.
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but the Aörsi passages from Kellhus's POV are clear about prepping Proyas for something.
Apart from the rape, which Kelly seemed to derive at least some pleasure from. Sure it would have served some purpose, but I feel like his own desire was more of a driving force of the rape.
My reasoning is really just how it reads. Prosha has his head on Kelly's lap and Kelly thinks of him as his most beautiful servant, then he savours the feeling as he slides his willy over Proyas' buttocks. Then he took Proyas "like he'd never been taken before" or something (I can't remember it's the last sentence of the scene though).
To me it seems more desire driven than logos driven. Would be good news if it was a more benign act. As it is it's pretty scary. Reminiscent of the Inchy. Could it be related to his time spent with demons? More probably the meat.
I went on a bit of a tangent but I agree with everything you've said Monkhound.
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I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think... While he probably expected the Consult to throw a surprise, I don't believe that Kellhus predicted the nuke, it seemed to be one of the rare moments when he had to go into deep probability trance to figure the shortest path from this new scenario.
And the rape of Proyas was more to break down Saubon than Proyas, it seems.
Well, I don't think Kellhus wanted Saubon to survive Dagliash, here's why. Remember on the Raft, Proyas begging and begging to lead the charge on Dagliash and Kellhus just ignoring him? Then who does Kellhus give that job to....Saubon. One way or another Saubon was not living out that day. Proyas was prepped to lead in Kellhus's absence and he knew that Saubon wouldn't submit wholly to Proyas. When Kellhus is going over the Nuke and remarks to Saubon that it's a good thing, not all will survive, it's because it was a easy way to get rid of Saubon and lessen the amount of mouths to feed on the rest of the way to Golgoterreth.
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I agree on that - Saubon was supposed to die as a martyr.
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I think he thought they both had potential in his absence but for one reason or another he decided Proyas suited his purposes better and Saubon became counted among those who are better not saved. It may have been something as simple as different reactions to the Meat.
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Proyas is more intelligent than Saubon, and so provided he can be adequately steered, he is by far the higher prized of the two when it comes to matters of subtlety.
So, Kell never really sees them as "either or", he has very distinct roles mapped out for them throughout. We don't appreciate yet exactly what those roles are / were.
You are the fist that beats us.
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Is Proyas smarter than Saubon, or just much less angry?
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Is Proyas smarter than Saubon, or just much less angry?
Saubon has been much more begrudging and impulsive than Proyas ever since TDTCB.
Proyas had usually been the one who wanted to do good, following Kellhus out of love which is what he gets, although in TGO is more of a twisted form of "tough" love. Proyas seems to notice the difference between Kellhus's and Akka's, as the passage with him hanging from the tree with Akka wanting to help him shows, but it's too late (as Kellhus points it out to him).
Saubon was a jealous self-serving man who followed Kellhus because of what he could get out of it. It's there since before the Battle of Mengedda in TWP.
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Everything Saubon ever did was to prove himself to everyone else.
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True as well. The curse of the seventh son of Coithus Eryeat.
I find the nickname The Blonde Beast interesting as well. Was it in one of the Kianene passages in TPON that he was called thus?
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Monkhound, I believe it comes in TWP as a name the Fanim worry about in an omnipresent POV when the Holy War makes it out of the desert and march on Caraskand.