[TGO SPOILERS] Momemn

  • 75 Replies
  • 35407 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 08:50:08 pm »
I don't think it was that close, Kellhus disabled Meppa easy mode one spell, we only have Malowebi thinking it was his chance to be the difference maker. Kellhus was almost pissing about, dropping Psatma,making shitty jokes, teleporting inside Malowebi's wards ,all he needed to do was drop his ward and they'd both wash away, he doesn't same with not adding his song to Meppa. Then Kellhus teleports outside takes out Meppa one shot.

He's probably just arrived (the allotted time)  after skimming horizon to horizon from Dalgliash to Momenn.



Cynical Cat

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 06:14:22 am »
The Primaries were weaker than Anagogic Sorcerers of Rank.  At Shimeh they concealed their presence until the Scarlet Spires had tired themselves out blasting their way into ambush point and then attacked, surrounding the poorly positioned and tired Scarlet Schoolmen.  Elizearas himself holds off two of their most powerful primaries for a while despite tiring his school out and leading them into a killing field.  Shimeh proved not that the Primaries are stronger than Sorcerers of Ranks, but that the difference in strength is far less important than tactics.

As for disguise magic, the Cishaurim were able to enter the Scarlet Spires by stealth and a witch was able to masquerade as a priestess of Yawter.  It clearly exists, with the Cishaurim having the advantage of not having the mark which was why everyone thought the skin spies were theirs.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 07:12:22 pm »
Then Kellhus teleports outside takes out Meppa one shot.

Well... we can quibble, of course :). But I read it as Kellhus having to withstand Meppa's outpouring of Water for a whole page in order to complete some unfathomably complex Metagnostic Cant in order to disable the Last Cishaurim.

The Primaries were weaker than Anagogic Sorcerers of Rank.  At Shimeh they concealed their presence until the Scarlet Spires had tired themselves out blasting their way into ambush point and then attacked, surrounding the poorly positioned and tired Scarlet Schoolmen.  Elizearas himself holds off two of their most powerful primaries for a while despite tiring his school out and leading them into a killing field.  Shimeh proved not that the Primaries are stronger than Sorcerers of Ranks, but that the difference in strength is far less important than tactics.

CC, wow. Welcome back 8)! It's been so long since I've seen your name kicking about a Bakker forum.

Quote from: TTT, p455
The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psukari assailed them: Seokti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri... And they could not cope.

Followed by a page of the Anagogic Sorcerers-of-Rank getting their asses handed to them until the Men of the Tusk come save them with Chorae.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 02:32:51 am »
There is that moment where Eleazaras holds his own against Seokti and another Primary which is no small feat, but the rest of it reads like the SS being overwhelmed by the Primaries. 

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2016, 03:39:41 pm »
My favourite sport is combat sports, basically duels.

So many variables go into fighting that you're really only the "better fighter" on the night. Also styles make fights as well, some people just have bogeymen they can't beat, but can destroy everyone else.

"cardio" is king as well as soon as you're tired you make mistakes and many a time a less skilled fighter has just survived till the other person gets tired then slowly the momentum changes.

Basically it's hard for me to say for certain one technique is better than the other because it isn't like they go into 8 week camps and practice then come out and duel.

Obviously some advantages like the Gnosis may prove insurmountable, but i wouldn't say what we've seen is a good indication as the conditions were not the same for each participant.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 05:05:23 pm »
There is that moment where Eleazaras holds his own against Seokti and another Primary which is no small feat, but the rest of it reads like the SS being overwhelmed by the Primaries. 

Sorry, Trisk - as far as my posts go, you know half of them end up being citations. But you mean, this moment on the next page:

Quote from: TTT, p456
Eleazaras had been very near the Cishaurim's surprise descent. Beset by Fanfarokar and Seokti, the High Heresiarch himself, he too could do no more than sing Ward after Ward.

Or later on p479 where Eleazaras, having chased Seokti and the other Cishaurim who have fled the Men of the Tusk and their Chorae, unloads absolutely every staple of the Anagogic Spires onto Seokti before the High Heresiarch just brushes it off and helps his respite finish Eleazaras off?

EDIT: There's also this thread from the Bakker's recent Author Q&A, which serves to muddy the waters, as per usual ;).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 05:08:54 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Cosi

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 08:33:31 pm »
Another point to consider is Kellhus v Primaries. My recollection is that he's nearly beaten blow-to-blow, and leans very heavily on Metagnostic teleportation to win. I'm away from book right now, so I might be misremembering. Also, he's pretty new to the Metagnosis at that point, so it's not perfect.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 11:17:11 pm »
Now it's not around me either, Cosi, but I think that Proyas watches Kellhus first try sorcery but then the Cishaurim attack with the Psuhke before Kellhus Translocates and just cuts them down with Enshoiya.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Cynical Cat

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2016, 01:10:01 pm »
Thank you Madness.  Good to see you as well.

The things to remember:

1) The Scarlet Spires had already wasted their strength blasting into Shimeh while the Fanim conserved theirs.  It's bad enough that one of the senior magi begs Eli to stop and he laughs it off and continues to push.  I'm going to repeat that because it's important:  the Scarlet Spires continues to push after one of their senior magi warns their leader that they are squandering their strength and this is before they fight a single Cishaurum.  The Scarlet Spires throw away one of their only advantages before the fight even begins.

2) The Cishaurim don't just ambush them.   The encircle them and unleash their Chorae archers as well.  Envelopement is pretty damned deadly and the Spires shield men can provide only limited protection.  The Scarlet Spires tire themselves out in the process of walking into a trap where a fresh enemy waits to spring upon them and Chorae archers can attack on all sides.  It isn't strength that wins this fight for the Cishaurum (although they clearly have a fair amount of that as well), it's tactics. 

3) It's not an impressive display of strength to overwhelm exhausted men.  Despite this, Eli is able to hold off two of the greatest Primaries and some of the Scarlet Spires survive long enough for the Men of the Tusk arrive and provide some aid.

4) Despite having wasted his strength, despite having two of the strongest Primaries gang up on him, Eli is able to fight on until finally the strongest of Cishaurum overcomes him.   You're not proving yourself stronger than a guy you don't fight until he's tired, gang up on, and then manage to beat when your buddy who was helping you drops out of the fight.  You are, however, stacking the deck in your favor.

5) No one is saying the greatest Primaries aren't really powerful or greater than many Anagogic Schoolmen, but nothing indicates that the Cishaurum as a whole are more powerful.  If they were there is no way Eli could hold out against two of the greatest Primaries after wasting so much of his strength and he's not only able to hold out, but to counter attack and fight on against their strongest when he's given a little respite by having one of those Primaries who is beating the shit out of his wards fall.  Eli's feat of endurance is exhausting in of itself.  When I was first reading the Thousandfold Thought I was thinking "Christ, all this and they still haven't managed to kill him.  Is he somehow going to live through this shit because this is hardcore?"  And just when I think he might actually Rasputin his way through his fuck up (and it's a colossal fuck up, he leads his entire School into a meatgrinder) he finally is beaten down and dies.

 There's also the small matter of having seen powerful sorcerers swiftly overwhelm weaker rivals and hold out against superior numbers of weaker enemies and Eli's performance is consistent with great strength.  It takes a long time for him to fall and a lot of hammering just as it takes a massive beatdown to overwhelm Akka.  The mercenary mage, on the other hand, doesn't last long against Eli.  That does show there's a fairly significant variation in strength between Sorcerers of Rank, consistent with having the strongest Primaries being able to outmatch many Anagogic Sorcerers one on one, but it's also shows just how strong Eli by being able to hold out against two Primaries even after squandering so much power.

5) Kelhus choses a highly mobile strategy to fight the last remaining Primaries and their supporting Chorae archers.  His ability to teleport and his lethalness in close quarters is an advantage only he possesses.  If he allows them to concentrate against him they might kill him.  If, on the other hand, he's teleporting around he's a hard target to concentrate against and he can attack his opponents by surprise.  His telekinetic rubble shield also helps protect him from Chorae archers but why would he do them of the favor of staying still and lining up shots? 

This is another example of Kelhus's intellect allowing him to make full use of his abilities.   


themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2016, 02:27:46 pm »
Also Kellhus won't have had the time to mine the metagnosis as he has in TGO> He even reflects until he got the 3 seas under he never really got time to ponder the "maddening abstracting" of the Daimos,metagnosis and TTT.

I've seen so many fights (boxing/grappling/mma/kickboxing) where one person is winning till they get tired then it just falls apart.

Onscreen Kellhus i believe kills on with a cant, throws a chorae at one, and beheads two after teleporting behind them. Just seems his usual effective way.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2016, 04:47:06 pm »
Yea I felt like Kellhus wasn't having trouble with Meppa, he was just very interested in the ward that Malowebi was using. And, I think that whatever "magic" the Zuemi use will be of some use to Kellhus in some way. He was really, really interested in that shit.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cosi

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2016, 03:59:23 am »
The Zeumi seem to be the only power in the modern era that's still creating magic items. Scarlet Spires, Mandate, Cisharum, and all the other Three Seas schools seem to rely mostly on raw sorcerous power to do stuff. Malowebi on the other hand seems to have a bunch of magical trinkets for various purposes, and his school is described (IIRC) as a "Fetishistic Anagogic School". Kellhus may have interest in looking at their notes, or perhaps he wants something specific they have squirreled away. Perhaps related to Titirga's Day Latern (which seems too important not to come up again).

Does someone have a summary of what we know about magic items? Particularly, I recall that a lot of them are of Nonman origin. Were any significant number made by Men?

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2016, 03:08:54 pm »
Thank you Madness.  Good to see you as well.

The things to remember:

...


Great post, CC. Granted. I yield to strategy vs. rote power being important :).

Does someone have a summary of what we know about magic items? Particularly, I recall that a lot of them are of Nonman origin. Were any significant number made by Men?

From another thread, Cosi, feel free to resurrect the linked threads and add to them :):

It still can be, but I feel like NG's presence is unique to Earwa and its sorcery. Soul sorcery produces the weirdest toys from what we've seen so it would fit in my mind.

Weapons of Animata as distinguished from Sorcerous Artifacts.

We didn't get very far in either thread as I remember.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2016, 05:18:56 am »
Any thoughts on why Kellhus went back to Momemn at all?  He admits in an Aorsi chapter that the whole empire is expendable and yet he seems to be conditioning Proyas just so he can leave the GO for awhile.  Like Kellhus was just waiting for the moment when the GO wasn't in immediate danger so he could rush home to see if he left the oven on.

As far as Meppa putting up a good fight against Kellhus, that might be a matter of POV.  Malowebi's wishful thinking might make it seem to him like Meppa was close to overcoming Kellhus, but feigning weakness is just another ploy for a Dunyain.

I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus.  She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother.  I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him. 

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2016, 11:16:32 pm »
Any thoughts on why Kellhus went back to Momemn at all?  He admits in an Aorsi chapter that the whole empire is expendable and yet he seems to be conditioning Proyas just so he can leave the GO for awhile.  Like Kellhus was just waiting for the moment when the GO wasn't in immediate danger so he could rush home to see if he left the oven on.

As mentioned before, there's an argument to be made that he came back to diffuse the threat of the Warrior, take out Psatma and Fanayal, capture Meppa for his own nefarious purposes, condition Ciphrang-Malowebi, and... you know, if you admit that he cares now... not be a dick about letting Esmenet, Maithanet, Inrilatas, Thelli, and Kelmomas all die ;).

I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus.  She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother.  I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him. 

I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer