[TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty

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MSJ

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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2016, 03:28:49 pm »
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

Well, throughout the Aspect-Emperor series, the Gods involvement is a major part of the plot.  This doesn't guarantee that Ajokli is responsible for anything, per se, but it sure fits with what we see from Yatwer (and possibly Gilgaöl).

Exactly. The Gods are involved because they are fighting for their existence. Though, Ajokli is the wild card, so to say. In the thread I started about the Gods, I presented evidence that Ajokli might not even be one of the 100. He is said to be a companion to the Gods. I even put forth the idea that he is a Nonman trying to fix the wrong they created, by creating the 100. Then helping Kellhus wwoild make sense, him being able to see the the No-God would make sense.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2016, 09:18:02 pm »
And I cannot believe I haven't quoted this yet, because I believe that it demostrates that Kelmommas is certainly a tool of Ajokli and has this been granted Unerring Grace.

Quote
But before anything , he had begun to worry about his Strength . The more Kelmomas mulled the events of the previous months, the less he seemed to own them, the more glaring his impotence became.

He doesn't own any of these events, the murder of the Yatwerian leader and the subsequent murders were all guided by Unerring Grace. He is a tool of a Ajokli, that began the moment he sacrificed that beetle to Ajokli. And in the end, he had what was dear to him taking from him, the WLW, the one who killed Thelli and was on his way to kill his father. It all lines up perfectly, and we even have the confession from Kelmommas that he owned none of these events, just a pawn.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2016, 09:53:56 pm »
Talk about reaching.  Yeah, he doesn't own these events because his mother is distracted by the siege, his sister knows what he is and is just waiting for the right moment to blow up this life, and White Luck Warrior seems basically to ignore him while in the last book he was creating crisis after crisis, committing murder after, and getting away with it.  None of these things can be solved by his go to plan of murdering someone and enjoying the aftermath.  This is only proof that he realizes that there is other shit going on that is not of his making or under his control. 

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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2016, 10:03:52 pm »
Nah, not reaching, just more proof. See, funny thing is, is I've showed proof, facts and such and what have you shown for me to be wrong? I mean if you're gonna argue against my position, well, at least show something that could possibly prove me wrong. Becasue, don't take this the wrong way but, you shown exactly nothing that proves my theory wrong, absolutely nothing. It just be easier to bite the bullet and say, your right MSJ.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 12:24:18 am »
I've already said there's a good chance you're right.  If you wanted that, you had it days ago.  I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong.  I'm arguing that your theory is unproven, not incorrect.  My argument is that you lack definitive evidence and you do lack definitive evidence.  Men who do not understand the metaphysics of their universe claim that Ajokli sees more than other gods.  You jump to the conclusion that not only are these men are right, this means Ajokli can see the No-God.  A narcissist that is overshadowed by larger events and you claim that is proof that he is Ajokli's pawn.  A narcissist who likes Ajokli asks a man who doesn't know his emperor is a false prophet to tell him about Ajokli. 

None of that is definitive evidence.  The only piece of evidence that indicates any supernatural action the fact that Kelmomas's intervention was not seen by the White Luck Warrior.  That does fit your theory, but it does not prove it.  We know the gods do not see all.

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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2016, 01:18:53 am »
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

This. It's been long, long assumed that that one statement in Warrior-Vision by the Ajokli Narindar means any of variety of things and... well, we just don't know what it means yet.
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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2016, 02:10:00 am »
I've already said there's a good chance you're right.  If you wanted that, you had it days ago.  I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong.  I'm arguing that your theory is unproven, not incorrect.  My argument is that you lack definitive evidence and you do lack definitive evidence.  Men who do not understand the metaphysics of their universe claim that Ajokli sees more than other gods.  You jump to the conclusion that not only are these men are right, this means Ajokli can see the No-God.  A narcissist that is overshadowed by larger events and you claim that is proof that he is Ajokli's pawn.  A narcissist who likes Ajokli asks a man who doesn't know his emperor is a false prophet to tell him about Ajokli. 

None of that is definitive evidence.  The only piece of evidence that indicates any supernatural action the fact that Kelmomas's intervention was not seen by the White Luck Warrior.  That does fit your theory, but it does not prove it.  We know the gods do not see all.

Lol. I was just being a bit of a smart ass, don't take it personal I was just joking. Anyhow, there is some evidence that Ajokli is unlike the so called other Gods. In the the thread "The Gods", I provided textual evidence of this. Not just what was said between the Narinder and the WLW. Ajokli is seen as a companion to the Gods. Which would add credence to the fact that he is not blind like 100 are. That's why I'm almost 100% sure he sees what the other Gods don't. If he couldn't see more than say....Yatwer, why would he intervene in her plot to kill Kellhus? More evidence that he sees what the other Gods don't. Every bit we have learned of Ajokli points to him seeing more and maybe (probably imho) not even really a God as Yatwer and the other 100 are. If anything from what we've seen, he seems to be aiding Kellhus rather trying to end him, which logically leads us to the conclusion that he sees what the 100 do not. Is it 100% definitive proof? No. But, not much is in this series, nor is it meant to be. Bakker wants us to puzzle these things out on our own, rather than coming right out and saying what's what. So, with that being said, is there any other entity that makes sense or there is a any shred of evidence for any other culprit other than Ajokli?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 02:15:32 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2016, 05:31:56 am »
I really want to jump in with support for Cynical cat here but it's just kind of exhausting at this point. I admire your determination, MSJ.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2016, 08:04:12 am »
There is no direct evidence of any being's involvement.  Unlike with the White Luck Warrior, as a counter example, we don't have a high priestess and a magic ceremony.  We have circumstances and conjecture.  Ajokli fits those circumstances very well, but the only being we know for sure that is invisible to the gods is Mog-Pheru.  So we have a bunch possible answers.

1) Ajokli
2) Some other god.  Not ruled out, but you would think Bakker would have dropped a hint so I don't think so.
3) The No-God is in some way connected the Kelmomas.  Out there, but we Mog-Pheru is invisible to the gods and that the Outside isn't strictly bound by linear time.
4) Some other entity.  Again, you think Bakker would have dropped a hint.

So yeah, it's probably Ajokli.  Probably.

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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 02:25:14 pm »
Just out of curiousity, what's being disputed here? I thought it was one thing and now it seems to have been another.
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2016, 07:41:39 pm »
I really want to jump in with support for Cynical cat here but it's just kind of exhausting at this point. I admire your determination, MSJ.

But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2016, 11:26:08 pm »
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

MSJ

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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2016, 03:20:21 am »
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2016, 06:11:04 am »
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.

That said, you're probably right.  Ajokli really is the best candidate, although I would really like to see Kelmomas thrown screaming into the Sarcophagus. ;)

MSJ

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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2016, 06:26:25 am »
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.

That said, you're probably right.  Ajokli really is the best candidate, although I would really like to see Kelmomas thrown screaming into the Sarcophagus. ;)

I would quite like that myself.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,