The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => Atrocity Tales => Topic started by: TaoHorror on May 17, 2017, 01:38:46 pm

Title: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on May 17, 2017, 01:38:46 pm
Friends!

Ok, for those of you with empathy for the occasionally ( ok, with me, frequently ) confused, have some questions I couldn't ferret out from previous threads easily.

What's the deal with the Mathesis Pin? Shaeönanra teaches Cet’ingira how to make one and Cet goes on to make a bunch which is what is employed to spring the trap on Titirga? Was Cet near them in the room or was that flashback away from the present confrontation? Gets hazy on that with me. Maybe someone can respond with a kind of short order of events if flashbacks are employed? Out of nowhere the text goes to construction of the Pin and then back to Titirga confronting Shae. Cants of Concussion are used to collapse the floor, so what did the Pin and 6 days of singing had to do with anything?

Just one thing - appears it was Tirtiga's arrogance about his power that did him in, yelling at Shae in lieu of protecting himself, but still seems someone of his might would've been able to react before the Cants completed - guess he couldn't walk into the air or float since that magic is based on the turf below you. He did survive the fall requiring they bury him, but still think he could've done something defense or counter attack - maybe the Cants are too quick or something.

The "celebration" between Cet and Inchoroi was some nasty evil shit! The whole thing so ugly, hard to digest. Coupling sex with violence, goading over those you've rolled is mad stuff.

Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on May 17, 2017, 01:48:14 pm
Friends!

Ok, for those of you with empathy for the occasionally ( ok, with me, frequently ) confused, have some questions I couldn't ferret out from previous threads easily.

What's the deal with the Mathesis Pin? Shaeönanra teaches Cet’ingira how to make one and Cet goes on to make a bunch which is what is employed to spring the trap on Titirga? Was Cet near them in the room or was that flashback away from the present confrontation? Gets hazy on that with me. Maybe someone can respond with a kind of short order of events if flashbacks are employed? Out of nowhere the text goes to construction of the Pin and then back to Titirga confronting Shae. Cants of Concussion are used to collapse the floor, so what did the Pin and 6 days of singing had to do with anything?

The Pin has nothing to do with the confrontation with Titirga.  It's unclear if those interludes (i.e. the text in italics) take place before or after what happens there Nogaral, but certainly the fact that Shae has seen the Inverse Fire means they have already gotten into the Ark and seen the Golden Room points to it being likely that it takes place before.

The point of those interludes are to give you an idea of why Shae is out to kill Titirga, i.e. he has fully given himself over to the Inchoroi (now Consult) view of things, to which Titirga is a definite hindrance.

Just one thing - appears it was Tirtiga's arrogance about his power that did him in, yelling at Shae in lieu of protecting himself, but still seems someone of his might would've been able to react before the Cants completed - guess he couldn't walk into the air or float since that magic is based on the turf below you. He did survive the fall requiring they bury him, but still think he could've done something defense or counter attack - maybe the Cants are too quick or something.

The "celebration" between Cet and Inchoroi was some nasty evil shit! The whole thing so ugly, hard to digest. Coupling sex with violence, goading over those you've rolled is mad stuff.

Sorcery is very powerful, but it is still somewhat limited.  Titiraga's ability to "fly" is limited, as the rest of sorcerers are, to walking on the echos of the ground.  No ground, no walking.  We are spoiled by Kellhus' power-level, since he can simply teleport anywhere he wants.  No one else has ever been able to do that.  Certainly though, Titirga's headstrong haughtiness certainly did get him killed.  He shouldn't have even been there, really.  He walked himself into a trap, probably knowing it would be a trap, but thinking he could defeat it just the same.

And lastly, that's just Aurang being Aurang...
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2017, 02:33:53 pm
Mathesis Pin: Created by Shae to break the barricades. This is the end of the MP in this story. This flashback is used to show how Shae ended up chillin' with the Inchoroi, seeing the IF, being converted to their side, and eventually forming the Unholy Consult.

Titirga/Shae Trap: Shae et al dug a big hole and scooby-doo style covered it up with a carpet. Titirga stepped onto the carpet, Shae released some mechanism, Titirga falls to his death. Very slim chance that he was able to survive (recall, I believe TJE, Achamian talks about how many a schoolmen has fallen to their death walking over a hidden ravine). But, given that Titirga is the most power schoolmen, they decided that collapsing a mountain on top of him was a good idea.

Titirga's Demise: Titirga would have overmatched Shae or any other schoolmen in a direct confrontation. Shae played him like a fiddle. Lured Titirga into a trap, got him all fired up, distracted him with an Inchoroi, and literally pulled the rug from under him. Perhaps a cautionary tale for those who seem grossly more powerful than their rivals. Arrogance and ignorance are extreme weaknesses, and can be exploirted by one's enemies.

Aurang/Shae Love affair: Yeah, I mean the Inchies are all about the sexy times. A little of post victory coitous is pretty standard for them.


Hope that helps.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on May 17, 2017, 02:41:42 pm
Titirga/Shae Trap: Shae et al dug a big hole and scooby-doo style covered it up with a carpet.

Minor nit-pick, but the Viritic Well, or as it is referred to in TGO, The Great Well of Viri was already there, since it was the "axel" of the mansion of Viri.  But they did build the "carpet" over it, indeed.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2017, 02:58:06 pm
Good clarification Its been a while since I've read it.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on May 17, 2017, 03:05:23 pm
It seems he actually survived the fall with Shae noticing some murmur of sorcery way down there and then collapse the roof on them ( and apparently the mountain wanted in on the action and went in with it ).
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on May 17, 2017, 03:32:13 pm
It seems he actually survived the fall with Shae noticing some murmur of sorcery way down there and then collapse the roof on them ( and apparently the mountain wanted in on the action and went in with it ).

Two things we don't really know, one being what the hell is at the bottom of the Well, where Titirga would presumably land, and two, if his power could really move a mountain.

The implication is that realistically only certain death waits for him at the bottom and that his power, while great, would not be able to move so much earth above him.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on May 17, 2017, 03:46:44 pm
Oh, so it was Titirga who crashed the mountain, like a last ditch effort to bring Shae and Aurang down along with him? I thought the mountain crashed in due to fault lines/fractures from the wars of past.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2017, 03:50:13 pm
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on May 17, 2017, 05:11:58 pm
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.

Yeah, I only meant in the sense that even if Titirga survived the fall and the collapsing debris, doubtful he could lift it all back out to escape.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on May 17, 2017, 06:02:40 pm
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.

Hmm ... me thinks maybe not ... this texts suggests unintended consequences - "Only Aurang's wings saved them" and the references to how the mountain collapsed thereafter from rot and tunneling.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.
The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2017, 06:16:12 pm
Hmm, I'd have to reread more of it, I still think it was intentional, at least in part.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on May 27, 2017, 12:02:18 pm
Well, what a difference 2 weeks can make ... just re-read False Sun and wow, seems seamless now, easily catching the flashbacks and feel I understand it all well. Just one remaining confusion, something I take will be answered in TUC - why is Earwa "Promised"? Hard to follow the PON story at times with so many lies, but from what Aurang says here, it wasn't an accident they crashed landed into Earwa ( well, maybe they didn't mean to crash, but appears they wanted to come here ). Best I can tell is the Inchoroi think Earwa is the key to avoiding hell ... so these "gods" exist/perceived outside of Earwa? I guess if they were "real", then that would be the case ... guess I'm not all in on the 100 actually existing as the 100. But Earwa shows the most "promise" to hide from the gods or it was "promised" to them by ... something.

So the conflict appears to come down to the Inverse Fire - does it's knowledge simply damn the "learner" ( apple from the tree of knowledge reference ) or Tekne modifies the nature of the "viewer" damning them in the eyes of god/gods ( either as actual possession/control or metaphorically in that if you reggae with your life stuff too much you've become something else, a corruption, an obscenity ). The ladder seems more likely to me given that the former would be a bit curious ( think the gods would WANT us to know what hell is so we would conform to avoid it piteously - but these are Bakker gods, so traditional worship may not apply - no big surprise a proud skeptic would think gods evil if they did indeed exist, Camu's theorem ). It's a fun conundrum given Shae's convincing self expression. To us, the reader, while his "relationship" with the Inchoroi and approach is mad, to him he's doing the sane thing which is to avoid damnation and whatever horror that requires, its moot compared to what awaits them for eternity ... he could be right.

Bakker has to be careful here that one of his readers doesn't get "the right idea", LOL!
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on June 06, 2017, 02:53:45 pm
No reasons explicitly why Earwa is their Promised Land. Maybe because of the existence of magic? But even then, at least for the nonmen its a hereditary trait, make it something that, once grafted, they could take to different worlds. So I'm not really sure we are any closer now to knowing what makes Earwa the place they sought, or how they might have been able to identify it.

Seems to me that they might have thought every world that they exterminated was their Eden until their plans didn't work, so they moved on. Revisionist history that the last one they were able to make it to, the one they all died trying to cleanse/prepare/whatever just so happened to be the magical holy land.

Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: MSJ on June 06, 2017, 05:34:41 pm
No reasons explicitly why Earwa is their Promised Land. Maybe because of the existence of magic? But even then, at least for the nonmen its a hereditary trait, make it something that, once grafted, they could take to different worlds. So I'm not really sure we are any closer now to knowing what makes Earwa the place they sought, or how they might have been able to identify it.

Seems to me that they might have thought every world that they exterminated was their Eden until their plans didn't work, so they moved on. Revisionist history that the last one they were able to make it to, the one they all died trying to cleanse/prepare/whatever just so happened to be the magical holy land.

Wouldn't it be the promised land because the Outside is connected to the inside via souls? Hence, magic...and also a way to disconnect the link between the two and leave the Gods howling at the gates for your soul.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on June 06, 2017, 06:17:43 pm
No reasons explicitly why Earwa is their Promised Land. Maybe because of the existence of magic? But even then, at least for the nonmen its a hereditary trait, make it something that, once grafted, they could take to different worlds. So I'm not really sure we are any closer now to knowing what makes Earwa the place they sought, or how they might have been able to identify it.

Seems to me that they might have thought every world that they exterminated was their Eden until their plans didn't work, so they moved on. Revisionist history that the last one they were able to make it to, the one they all died trying to cleanse/prepare/whatever just so happened to be the magical holy land.

Wouldn't it be the promised land because the Outside is connected to the inside via souls? Hence, magic...and also a way to disconnect the link between the two and leave the Gods howling at the gates for your soul.

I think the real key is that Eärwa is a place where meaning is mutable.  Sorcery is just a symptom of that.

How the hell they knew this before "landing," I don't know though.  Unless, of course, they didn't...
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on June 06, 2017, 07:44:07 pm
Must be a case of revisionist history, almost certainly. How much may be unclear.

Does sorcery exist beyond Earwa? A curious thought. What IS the Onta, how do you see it, and how does that let you manipulate it. Does that interaction of the meta-real and the real only occur in Earwa? And even if yes, just Earwa, then how would the Inchoroi have known before they crashed?

Ostensibly they were in a hurry. Their ship was in disrepair, they couldn't even land properly, yet they came barreling in anyway. To me that  suggests they were either fleeing somewhere that over matched them, or they were pretty damn excited to land. How did they know though...
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on June 07, 2017, 11:50:57 am
Must be a case of revisionist history, almost certainly. How much may be unclear.

Does sorcery exist beyond Earwa? A curious thought. What IS the Onta, how do you see it, and how does that let you manipulate it. Does that interaction of the meta-real and the real only occur in Earwa? And even if yes, just Earwa, then how would the Inchoroi have known before they crashed?

Ostensibly they were in a hurry. Their ship was in disrepair, they couldn't even land properly, yet they came barreling in anyway. To me that  suggests they were either fleeing somewhere that over matched them, or they were pretty damn excited to land. How did they know though...

It certainly does seem that the ship malfunctioned.  Perhaps it was their haste in attempting to land?

Wutteät gives us the best clues of all of them:

Quote
"SUCH THINGS THAT I REMEMBER, CÛNUROI! TWISTING IN THE VOID FOR SAILING AGES! WATCHING MY MAKERS DESCEND AS LOCUSTS UPON WORLD AFTER WORLD, REDUCING EACH TO ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND—AND WAILING TO FIND THEMSELVES STILL DAMNED!"

So, the 144,000 "prophecy" predates Eärwa by a good bit.  Unless what we think is prophecy is actually something more of a mathematical fact?

Quote
"Only to arrive here broken and exhausted!" Cleric cried.
"YES—YES! AT LAST, THE PROMISED WORLD! I WAS THE FIRST—THE FIRST! WITH DREAD SIL UPON MY SHOULDERS, I WAS THE FIRST TO STEP FROM OUR HALLOWED ARK, TO SET EYES UPON THE LAND OF OUR REDEMPTION!"

So, he does acknowledge that when they arrived, something had already "broken and exhausted" them.  Perhaps some other world, perhaps an extra long journey.  This could account for the crash.  I agree though, I think the "land of our redemption" is an ex post facto here, or at least, post Ark-fall.  Once on the planet, they might have realized something was different there.  Perhaps something in the character of the Inverse Fire changed?
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: TaoHorror on June 07, 2017, 01:53:19 pm
Yeah, still don't know how they came up with 144,000 ... outside of it's the square of 12 times 1,000 ... maybe Bakker liked it as it was the last number on his times tables he studied in 4th grade ...
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: Wilshire on June 07, 2017, 02:10:46 pm
Just google 144,000 and you'll get a lot of hits. Theres plenty of religious etymology around that number - and I imagine that's how Bakker came to it.

As for the inchoroi, no idea. Its in one of the chapter epigraphs - Ganas(?) the Blind, or whatever his name was - and it seems to be an indication that they had that number from whence they originally left their home planet. Or at least that's what I got from the little paragraph.
Title: Re: False Sun Clarifications request
Post by: H on June 07, 2017, 04:18:25 pm
Just google 144,000 and you'll get a lot of hits. Theres plenty of religious etymology around that number - and I imagine that's how Bakker came to it.

As for the inchoroi, no idea. Its in one of the chapter epigraphs - Ganas(?) the Blind, or whatever his name was - and it seems to be an indication that they had that number from whence they originally left their home planet. Or at least that's what I got from the little paragraph.

Yeah, there are plenty of Biblical allusions in the books.  Meant to "evoke the scriptural" in Bakker's words.

On Ganus, indeed, we are left to wonder how Ganus found out about it.  The presumption though is he suffered some kind of revelation in blindness, yet another ever-present theme.