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Messages - SkiesOfAzel

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Some thoughts i'd like to add.

Kellhus and the Dunyain in general thing themselves as places when they are meditating. There are examples of that in the first trilogy. When young Kellhus was first conditioned by the Pragma in order to control the legion within, he was referring to himself as a place. He was doing the same think before entering a probability trance. As far as the Logos is concerned, a place, unlike a person, is impartial. But according to the metaphysics of Earwa, a person is a place where the outside is looking in.

The interesting thing about the metaphysical part is that time in the outside is perceived all at once. So what happens with Saubon makes perfect sense. Saubon dies, he is turned inside out (his inside, his soul goes to the outside). The POM are a topos and thus partially in the outside as well. So Saubon, being now in the outside, has access to all time (as perceived by the God of Gods) and thus access to the time when he was at the POM.

The difference in time perception between the outside and the inside (physical word) is one of the if not the most important factor that shapes the metaphysics of Earwa. It even explains how divine judgement can be shaped by belief without actually changing at all.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« on: September 03, 2016, 10:49:11 am »
Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Dunyain children don't necessarily have the same needs as human children, so i don't see why they would have to have their mothers beside them while growing up.

Besides, Dunyain exist in order to apply the principle of the Logos, so any emotional attachment that can arise by the connection between parent and sibling is totally unwanted. The same goes for conditioning their females for reproduction, it would make them victims to the darkness that comes before and thus undesirable in their society.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 12, 2014, 03:56:02 pm »
;D
My original comment was about applying utilitarianism, although I don't think I mentioned it directly there.

utilitarianism.

This is the dilemma Sorweel faces, so it is fairly obvious that it is an intentional theme designed to make us consider the same problem.

If the choice is between the New Empire and the ordeal or extinction, Kellhus is a force for good.
We don't know that is the only choice, but the idea that he could have instituted some kind of egalitarian utopia in the meantime and still forge the largest army of veteran soldier and sorcerers the world has ever seen seems pretty far-fetched. 
Clearly things aren't ideal, but we only consider whether his stated objective. 

If he's lying then he is bad, because he is clearly not working towards the greatest benefit to the greatest number.  But we can't address that, as you say, so why discuss it?  Unless you wish to declare why you believe it is so, that's fine.

Any other system you wish to consider?

I won't go into morality systems right now, i am kind of short on time, maybe tomorrow. Aristotle ethics will be very interesting to discuss, since the Dunyain are inspired by his philosophy. For now I will just attempt to better express a few of my arguments.

1) Kellhus isn't necessarily lying about what his goal is, he lies to further his cause (this is indisputable). Lying to achieve ones goal leads to contradictions when made into a universal law, so it's immoral.

2) I've never claimed that it's logical or even possible for Kellhus to build an utopia while preparing for the war. I just pointed out that a theocracy is even worse of a system than the previous one. You don't need to build a utopia in order to improve things. I don't even believe in utopia, it's as paradoxical a term as is perfection. But twenty years represents a whole generation. The Swedes took less than that to reform their system. Keynesian economics took less than that to improve things in a perceptible way. Those are examples btw, not suggestions. Seswatha wasn't mentioned to compare how optimal his path was, but to argue that if there are two paths to the same goal why wouldn't there be more?

I also want to make something clear. Just because i say something it doesn't mean it represents my beliefs. In the course of a conversation one questions things, and makes observations in order to provoke a response that helps one better comprehend the opinion of the person (s)he converses with. Usually when i mention something i truly believe in, i try to explicitly state that.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 12, 2014, 01:59:46 pm »
Madness, i know i am not doing any favors to myself but i have to say i've read the thread before posting :p. In my defense though, it's impossible to only express new views in a conversation. And i think you are right, we must better define our terms. Different backgrounds and the language barrier makes communication about abstract things pretty hard.

Ok, let's try to form some more defined boundaries for our conversation. Let's first agree to a point of reference.

Should we measure according to our own world?
A person can have many purposes that fall on both sides of the moral spectrum. How do we measure the sum of one's goodness?
Do you want to employ Kant's moral law, a legal system and are those two compatible?

How do we define Kellhus' purpose? The sad fact is that we can only guess. To a lesser extend, the same goes for his beliefs. Do we judge him according to our guesses?

[EDIT]
By saying that the ends don't justify the means i implied that intent isn't enough to measure goodness. But let's go with Kant and intent. Let's be kind to Kellhus and assume that his purpose is indeed saving humanity from extinction. I won't even bother bringing damnation to the equation at this point, let's just concentrate on the more physical aspect of the story :p. So his maxim is survival at all costs. This is moral. But he is also lying whenever this helps him achieve his goal which is immoral.

Also, do we judge Kellhus before the circumfixion ? After, it? During the WLW? Is his intent constant throughout the books?

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 11, 2014, 05:50:03 pm »
Apologies, I thought we were debating whether Kellhus is good or evil.  He has done a lot of shitty things, so to me , the question becomes whether his intention really is to improve the fate of humanity by preventing its destruction.  All else is simply the effect of means that may be interpreted according to the observer's beliefs, independent of their purpose.

We do. I just expressed the opinion that even if you don't interpret his actions, but his intentions alone, you still have to find an objective meaning for goodness to do so, which is not something i believe to be logically sound. So in my view, every opinion here including my own is by definition personal and very subjective.

I think by 'dimmed' you mean 'deemed'?

English isn't my native language so some times i confuse the spelling of similarly sounding words. I really wan't to improve my ability to write in English, so if you spot similar errors don't hesitate to point them out to me.

Problem here is that he doesn't care about how men are ruled.  He doesn't care about slavery, social divisions or what people do to each other.  His purpose is singularly exclusive.

Those are beliefs, not actions, should i not judge those as well? Don't beliefs shape purpose?

Here you are casting judgement for actions not taken.  That is a slippery slope.

Building a theocracy is an action taken. The alternative i suggested is just that, a suggestion. There is no need to polarize this.

Then we have all the dunyain line about how all men are slaves to the Darkness.  Kellhus believes that, so how is he supposed to build this free society, I wonder.  Glorious five year plan, perhaps?

You can't judge Dunyain morality because they have none. But Kellhus is different. He believes that at least part of that darkness is divine. Moe thinks he can subvert divine will with the TTT, Kellhus believes that he and the TTT are expressions of divine will. Thus he is not Dunyain anymore.

A completely free society is an oxymoron, in a society total freedom is of course impossible, without some form of slavery. I was talking about a society of critical thinkers. A society like this wouldn't need Kellhus to tell them what to do, they would realize it for themselves. And btw, i really fail to see where Stalin fits in this conversation

Seswatha had the benefit of the Siqu backing him up and the Norisai were only two nations, both pretty much the heirs of Nonman culture and thus their ancient feud.  And they failed. 
The Consult only lost because Mog decided to give Anaxophus a free shot at Mengeda.

The Norsirai were only two nations but they were huge, they were the developed human world at the time. Most Nonmen were already erratics by the time of the Apocalypse and Kellhus has the human schools by his side which are no slouch. But most importantly, we still haven't seen him succeed with his Ordeal so the point of this conversation is rather moot.

As far as following a different path, the only thing Seswatha did right was pinching the heron spear, which also happens to be a straightforward bit of Kellhus-level manipulation because he needed to deceive and betray Nau Cayuti to get him to help.

He acted as a consultant, not a tyrant, that's a very big difference. He tried to convince, not to impose. Yes, he lied and betrayed when his back was against the wall, and he cheated his best friend as well. That proves he is fallible not that he follows the same path as Kellhus.

Nope.  Egyptians, Persians and all sorts of tyrants and nobility were claiming divine right well before that.  There were great conquerors before him. 
You seem to have some funny ideas about Alexander. He took on the title of God in Persia because that is how the Persians traditionally saw their emperor.  He took social, scientific and engineering advisors with him on his campaigns and they encouraged him to adopt the customs of the peoples he conquered and leave their social systems largely in place because that is the best way to smoothly take over and avoid partisan resistance.
He was idolized and studied by later conquerers, historians and generals because he was a military genius. 

Yeah, i know what he did and why, in great detail. I am Greek so he is part of my heritage. Maybe that's a reason to put a little too much weight on his (negative imo) influence on history. But i will maintain that the reason he was worshiped was not simply because of his intellect, but about how he applied that intellect. To dominate others and leave his mark on history.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 11, 2014, 02:10:11 pm »
I won't enter a debate on objective morality, thanks.  ;)

You are welcome :P. Still, this is the root of my argument, so i had to bring it up.

Its not an unpopular opinion that ends over means can be a bad thing.

I feel it's one of the most prominent themes in the books, there are many historical and modern parallels in Earwa that deal with that.
 
Now, the good of mankind is never suggested as Kellhus' goal.  The survival of mankind is his purported goal, with the shortest path as his plan.

Yes, but if he is to be dimmed good, his purpose, survival, must also be considered a good cause for mankind. But building a better society is also a good cause and Kellhus goes more on the opposite direction. So in order to form a conclusion about Kellhus' morality you have to first investigate if those two causes are mutually exclusive. Kellhus believes they are, i don't. Enslaving society to protect it from enslavement doesn't seem a good idea to me. A selfless leader should try to build a society that doesn't need him to protect itself.

That final sentence I cannot agree with.  Seswatha did not unite mankind against the consult.  He managed to get Celmomas to listen to him when it was too late and later worked with other nations as they tried to stave off their inevitable doom, but the remnants of humanity only gathered together at the last. How do you explain his legacy, the Mandate - ridiculed guardians of his version of the 'truth'?  Why did he not allow them to share the gnosis?  From what we know, Seswatha was a liar, master manipulator and a cheat - no better than Kellhus.

Seswatha managed to convince the Norsirai to join his cause and the Norsirai were the biggest and the most powerful part of mankind. Kellhus picked a similar case with the Inrithi and we still don't know if his ordeal will succeed ;). But my intention wasn't to compare Seswatha and Kellhus as persons. I was merely pointing out that Seswatha saved the world by following a very different path. So why should i believe that there is only one path to survival?

"the first guy that showed the world imperialism could actually work" <- that is what I disagree with.  Differing definition of imperialism here perhaps, but he wasn't the first great conquerer or empire builder.  His conquests are notable for their speed and the fact that he took down the Persian empire with a much smaller force. There were larger empires (see the Achaemenid Empire) before Alexander and much longer lived.
His military accomplishments really were worth admiring, even if just from a logistical and engineering point of view.

This is about motive. Alexander showed to every deranged narcissist out there that he could create a vast empire and be worshiped as a God during his own lifetime. He opened up possibilities...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 11, 2014, 11:32:28 am »
'Ends justifies the means' ethics are still motivated by will.
That's not something i would contest, every action a living being performs is the result of a will and a purpose.

So the question should be diverted from debate about whether Kellhus' methods fall outside normative morality to what his real goal is.
If he is really acting to save humanity from extinction, then his will is good - whatever the consequences of his methods.

I did contest the objective definition of goodness though. If you agree that extinction (or something close to that) is the single worst thing that can happen and if you also agree that Kellhus' path is the only path, you will see him as good. I believe neither of these things, so i have a different opinion on goodness.

Even if i changed my mind about extinction due to it's finality, i would still not accept Kellhus's opinion that his is the only path. If i judged his actions according to his own opinions i could do the same with Hitler and dim him good, as long as he sincerely believed he was advancing humanity.
 
I think you should consider the part of history as the causal darkness of much of the horror and suffering in Earwa.  I don't see how the New Empire is much worse or better than the way things were under the Kian/Nansur/Thousand temples et al.  Changing the history of stagnant, dwindling civilizations (secretly being guided by genocidal monsters towards extinction) doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

There are huge differences in my eyes though. If Kellhus is indeed laboring for the good of mankind he should have gotten rid of most of the old system. Instead, not only does he make use of most of the old system to better control the population, he establishes a theocracy. So his tyranny isn't just of the body, it's also of the mind. His subjects can't question his actions, they can't even feel dissatisfied because unlike his predecessors, Kellhus is God.

What Kellhus does is to sacrifice freedom in order to increase security. I am with Benjamin on this one. Besides, if Seswatha could unite mankind against the Consult by telling the truth, i don't see how a Dunyain couldn't do the same.

And I must disagree with your statement about Alexander.  That is just so incorrect to me.  He destroyed the most stable and effective imperial structure in the ancient world and left internecine chaos in his wake that destabilized civilization in Europe and the near east for hundreds of years.

What you state isn't antithetical to what i was saying. Alexander was a pupil of Aristotle, thus he believed great actions make a man immortal. He made war to the known world to feed his narcissism. Nations were enslaved, countless lives were lost, and in the end when he died his empire fell apart. But most people pay little attention to those facts. Instead they give weight to the fact that he managed to conquer all the known world. This was something that no one thought possible before Alexander, but he showed the world that this possibility existed. Do you doubt that Alexander, to this day, is admired for his accomplishments by the majority?

Also, Dunyain have the ability to empathize beyond comprehension.  What they lack is sympathy.

I was talking about empathy as an instinct. Dunyain observe their subject's face and deduct it's intent according to what they know of it's history and beliefs. Empathy is an instinctive reaction to people, and it uses the self as a comparison, that's why it produces sympathy. For example when Kellhus feels outrage for Serwe's abuse he empathizes instinctively with her. Empathy isn't active, it's passive, Kellhus doesn't want to put himself in her place, it just happens.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: April 10, 2014, 08:45:08 pm »
I would go as far as to say that the  gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.
This is the overall problem with an unfinished story and characters that are known to lie about everything.

I like this idea, but they fully convinced me they where telling the truth that I never saw it. Now I'm torn :P.

Lol, i am not saying they lied about their relationship, i am just saying that they timed their push-ups so that Sorweel would bump into them and get jealous. You can have your cake and eat it too ;)

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: April 10, 2014, 05:12:38 pm »
Why are we so convinced that the Anasurimbors can't sense the chorae in the pouch?  They all played along with Sorweel's belief that Yatwer was hiding his face, when in fact Serwe reveals that he truly was the enemy part of the Niom.  If he actually was a Believer King, they would have chosen someone like Zsoronga instead, since he obviously hates them.  Sorweel was running around thinking he'd fooled them all, when that wasn't the case.  I think they all just played along with his beliefs to get him to do what they wanted (standard operating procedure for dunyain).  The greatest manipulators of men in the world would hardly let on to Sorweel (basically an infant to them) that they knew his dirty little secret.  They played him from the start.  They knew about the chorae (imo), which was why Serwe wouldn't take the pouch from him.

Unless I've forgotten a crucial piece of evidence, which is altogether possible.

I am sure they suspect, but i am not convinced they are certain. They seem to worry when they keep seeing love in his eyes. I would go as far as to say that the  gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: April 10, 2014, 05:07:38 pm »
Well, good and evil aren't objective terms, not really. Besides we don't really know how the whole thing ends, so it's hard to draw conclusions about his actions without truly knowing his plan and reasoning.

Having said that, i've personally never believed that the ends justify the means. What Kellhus does on a large scale always leaves ripples throughout history. Look at the crusades, humanity is still paying for that insanity today. Or even better, look at the simple fact that Alexander the Great is admired to this day, the first guy that showed the world imperialism could actually work. Of course the story isn't over yet, he still has time to make a Leto turn, but till then i will keep hating him :p.

There is also an issue with Dunyain in general. They have actively tried to gain some traits that in our world are considered sociopathic. Lack of emotions and especially lack of empathy can't lead to a society of any kind. Society is build on trust, which in turn is build on empathy. Dunyain only have tools to control, so how can they build anything but a nightmare similar to that of a brave new world?

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General Earwa / Re: Kellhus in Modern Times
« on: April 05, 2014, 04:34:57 pm »
I think you all try too hard. Kellhus was inspired by real world examples, the humans that in most cases have shaped history for their own purposes. Today's Kellhuses are harder to spot, they have mostly succeeded in their goals so they remain far from the spotlight. They own the media, the governments, public and private debt, the banks and the industry, but most importantly they own us, their cattle. If you are looking for specific examples, guys like Edward Bernays are a good place to start. This guy practically made conditioning every part of human life through propaganda the modus operandi of the world. And speaking of Eddy, he used to work for the Rockefellers. You know, those dudes that financed the eugenics Nazi experiments, that funded the feminism movement just so they could increase production, that desperately want a vast decrease in the human population etc.

The Rockefellers of the world are our Kellhus, and they have means in their disposal that our imaginary Dunyain could only dream of.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Mimara
« on: April 02, 2014, 11:33:52 am »
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Scott is a tricky bastard, he has been misdirecting us with all these historical, philosophical and religious references from the very beginning. t's obvious now that his one true influence has always been Beverly Hills 90210.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
« on: March 25, 2014, 02:49:03 pm »
+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.

MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.

I believe they couldn't predict what Kellhus would become because their causality chains didn't factor the outside influence when predicting effects. They had no reason to believe that Kellhus would fail, or become a threat to them.

[EDIT]
Causing your own misfortune like Aka is a classic example of a feedback loop which humans mistakenly attribute to bad luck. Example:
You have an important appointment at work -> you don't want to be late -> you drive fast -> the police stops you for a speed limit violation -> you get delayed -> you miss the appointment.

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General Earwa / Re: Inchoroi Gods
« on: March 25, 2014, 11:53:31 am »
They have penises!  That's an Earwa thing!

Exactly :P!

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Technically, wouldn't the Nonmen worship the ineffable which transcends them, not a being per say? Like the Tao except speaking the name has made it not-Tao - though, it could turn out that the Solitary God always exceeds knowing.

Good luck on your paper.

Yes, it's not the same religion for certain, but what they worship is also part of the Solitary God. I just think the common factors between religions are interesting.

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