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Messages - SkiesOfAzel

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16
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: March 25, 2014, 11:46:40 am »
Lol it's Scott we are talking about, the difference between angelic ciphrang and regular ones might simply be the use of lube ;)

17
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
« on: March 25, 2014, 11:44:53 am »
Wutteat would be more fun, because in this way Aka would be responsible for the destruction of the answers he seeks, but i vote for Kellhus because what makes him what he is that he leaves nothing to chance. The Dunyain are just to dangerous to be left breathing. 

18
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
« on: March 24, 2014, 05:41:56 pm »
Asking who destroyed the monastery is like asking who killed JFK. I mean who wouldn't want them dead. The Consult has motive, Kellhus has motive, hell even the Gods have motive. It's just a matter of who got there first. My money is on Kellhus.

19
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus and Nau Cayuti
« on: March 24, 2014, 05:29:44 pm »
The most recent point we have from Nau-Cayuti's Dream-life, Shauriatas is literally asking Nau-Cayuti about the Heron Spear. Which would imply that when Shauriatas finds out from Nau-Cayuti, Achamian will know the real world location, and why/if the Consult haven't found it.

Also, there is an inverse relationship between Mekertrig/Shauriatas' knowledge of the Tekne to Aurang/Aurax... the first time around, the No-God resulted from a combination of sorcery/Tekne but Aurang/Aurax brought the Tekne half of the knowledge to the table. So Shauriatas probably has had to spend much, much longer, reverse engineering what they've done to learn Aurang/Aurax portions.

It's simply impossible for Nau-Cayuti to know anything useful about the Heron Spear at this time. The Heron Spear went missing when he was already dead or somewhere else. The persons closest to it at the time were Anaxophus V and Seswatha.

The composition of the Consult has remained largely the same for the past 3000 years. The Inchoroi twins, the Mangaeka immortals and the Nonmen erratics. So i don't see how they would have to reverse engineer anything, unless you imply that the Inchoroi also loose their memories due to their agelessness, which is something i am not at all convinced with.

We don't know when the Dream in Ch. 1 takes place? And Nau-Cayuti was leading the human resistance... Shauriatas and Consult have just captured him... why do we have to project more onto this prize commentary, specifically?

I just used the same word, Nau-Cayuti is a world soul, he was a very important part of history, he is a bigger part of God than the common mortal.

But you've assumed that the False Prophecy is about Mimara specifically, rather than maybe pregnant women in Mimara's line. You also assume that the False Prophecy has to do with the end of the World...

No, i've assumed there are various prophesies that are just interpretations of the original. When i wrote the original post about the prophesy i falsely remembered that initially the prophesy was given to the reader directly, like the Ishual part in the Intro of the DTCB, but i rechecked it and realized i was mistaken. I am not convinced there is a completely accurate version of the original prophecy, just different variations of it. But there is a common factor that has to do with a certain line. Mimara doesn't have to be the subject of prophecy, belonging to that line is enough for the Consult to keep her in check. The fact that Mimara has the JE is what makes think she may be the fulfillment of the prophesy, her or her child.

And about the End of the world, an apocalypse, depending on how far it reaches can be a complete reset on civilization and beliefs. The world doesn't have to end in a material sense for that part to be correct.

Well... strangely enough, you've seeded your own nerdanel. I'm not sure I agree but I know I've voiced the elsewhere for different reasons.

Mimara's stillborn birth resulting from the Judging Eye will be the only live baby born after the No-God walks again.

I certainly hope you are right, because i fear there will be a more sinister conclusion to this part of the story.

Lol - I don't see how this will save you from having to defend your nerdanels? We, the SA noosphere, are the God of Gods of your analogy trying to solve TSA.

I don't have an issue defending them, back and forth like this stimulates the imagination, enabling us to come up with even more preposterous stuff. I am just pointing out that there is too much ambiguity in the books to allow the formulation of definitive conclusions.

Or the fact that you haven't really explained satisfactorily how/if the No-God actually stops the Gods and Souls Outside from affecting the World?

And that's what i was talking about. I have already pointed out what led me to this assumption. I still think it's probable, but there are also indications that it isn't so. Hopefully we will know when the UC gets released.

I really don't know that we should trust this 144,000 notation. Where the hell did the Inchoroi even get that from? Maybe that's what they are doing wrong (though, I think we can all safely assume that Earwa is the connection the Outside).

You might be right about the true significance of the number, what i find interesting though is that the same number is a part of an Earwan legend ;).

You know, you're forgetting your own Mimara speculation here. Technically, if she is Anasurimbor through Esmenet's matrilineal line, then the Anasurimbor never even retreated.

Also, what about the Dream where young Nau-Cayuti has learned Mimara's name from Seswatha sleeping...?

Of course they had retreated. They were kings, they had the power to shape the future. If Esmenet is indeed a descendant of that line, she is the first to be able to influence events in two thousand years. The same goes for Mimara.

The dreams do that blending with the current time line more than once. It might be Aka's consciousnesses that causes it, it might be Seswatha's, it might even be a short of time bending. This along with the Keelhus/Seswatha conversation are like itches i can't scratch.

+1 - I'm not big on the abstract metaphysics of our world even ;).
I decided to use the human body as a way to help visualize it, i hope the result was accessible.

Her subliminally knowing that Soma is a skin-spy is a way different kind of knowing something she shouldn't than knowing where a Topoi originates, which seems definitely like it would be in the Judging Eye's ken.

One of the central themes of the book is that in Earwa the darkness that comes before isn't just the human subconscious. There is outside influence with its own purpose, and Mimara is connected to the outside through fiber optics :P. The only difference i see between those two cases is that with Soma she didn't have to understand her belief in order to benefit from it, while in the second case she had, so her knowledge couldn't remain in her subconscious. I could produce more insights by Mimara that defy causality but i'd have to re read the JE and the WLW, and right now i don't have the time. There is also little point to it, my initial argument was that since Mimara undeniably has that trait, every one of her comments that seems out of place is suspect.

20
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: March 24, 2014, 04:27:01 pm »
I went back and read the context of my comment and I'm not sure what motivated that brackets... usually, I have something pretty specific in mind.

It's the darkness that comes before all of us :P

21
The fate part might take a while, i am kind of busy in real life trying to write a paper. Anyway, A point i forgot to mention about the Earwan religions is that the Nonmen belief system shares similarities with Fanimry. The Nonmen also worship a transcendent being, or to be more accurate a being that transcends them. Emergence creates properties that are not accessible to the smaller parts that form the relations which create them. The Nonmen acknowledge their limitations and worship something that is more than they are, and this more is a product of emergence.

22
General Earwa / Re: Inchoroi Gods
« on: March 24, 2014, 04:02:43 pm »
Maybe none of them ever got as fair as the Inchoroi did to figuring it out?

You have to admit it's still improbable. Why only one alien race has figured it out? And even if we assume that this very small probability came through, why not employ the help of others? I am sure the Inchies would be an insignificant percentage of the damned population in the universe if Earwan judgement applied everywhere.

23
"I remember... I remember asking a wise man, once... though whether it was last year or a thousand years ago I cannot tell. I asked him, 'Why do Men fear the dark?' I could tell he thought the question wise, though I felt no wisdom in asking it. 'Because darkness,' he told me, 'is ignorance made visible.' 'And do Men despise ignorance?' I asked. 'No,' he said, 'they prize it above all things—all things!—but only so long as it remains invisible.'"

-Cleric, The Judging Eye, Ackamian POV.

24
Here, I will attempt to give you my take on the metaphysics of Earwa, without using any terms from science or philosophy. Before talking about the Gods, let’s take some time to do some ground work.

A human is considered a single entity, but why is that? A human being is formed by matter. Matter forms his organs and those organs form the human being. But all those materials are many, so what makes a human something which is singular and different than the sum of its parts? The answer is emergence.

Emergence is a phenomenon that can happen when two elements form a relation. The classic example to describe emergence is that of a molecule of water. A hydrogen atom has certain characteristics and the same applied to an oxygen atom. But the molecule of water has characteristics that didn’t originate from any of those atoms that are its materials.

With that new found knowledge, let’s try to answer why a human being is consider a single entity. Well, because it has a sense of identity, an ego and a consciousness. Those characteristics are not directly related to any single one of his parts, but are characteristics born from the relations between those parts.

Now it's time to take a vacation to Earwa. The first thing that catches the eye here is that on Earwa morality is not subjective at all. There is judgment, there is an afterlife and there is damnation. There are also two major religions here, but what are they about?

Both religions agree that there is a material world and a conceptual world. The conceptual world is the home of beings called Ciphrang. Those beings hunger for souls and are responsible for punishing the souls of sinners. This is also the home of the Gods. The Gods reward their faithful by snatching their souls when they die and saving them from damnation.

According to Inrithism, there are a hundred Gods that represent important aspects of human life. Those Gods can interact with their followers in the physical world and their followers can interact with the Gods through prayer. Since the interaction goes both ways, the Gods are shaped by their followers and the followers are shaped by their Gods. The Gods represent human concepts, so their own parts are human ideas.

Inrithism also promotes the idea of a higher entity, the God of Gods. According to Inrithism the God of Gods is the sum of all souls, including the Gods. So if every soul is a vector, the God of Gods is the single equivalent vector of all souls. Since every ensouled creature in Earwa can interact with every other ensouled creature, the God of Gods knows itself infinitely and defines itself. It is also considered immanent, which means that it is a part of, and interacts with the world. This implies purpose, a plan which can translate to fate.

Fanimry on the other hand doesn’t accept the hundred as Gods. The hundred are seen as Ciphrang instead. Now this is more a matter of semantics than anything, the hundred love their souls like the lesser Ciphrang, but they also offer respite from damnation. Fanimry also disagrees with the nature of God.

According to Fane, the God is transcendent and singular. But what does that mean? Well the Solitary God does in no way interact with the world and is a single entity. But if every soul is a part of the God how can this be? Simple, it’s emergence again. Like a human being, the Solitary God is not only defined by the sum of souls, but also by their relations to one another and the new characteristics those create. But why doesn’t he interact with the world? Again, like a human being, he can’t interact with his parts, because they are out of “sight”, he is unaware of them. But if he is singular, how can he have an identity and a purpose? Without other beings to interact with he can’t. Thus he has no purpose. So if you wonder why the Chissaurim aren’t marked, it’s because they recall the memory of the Solitary God to do their miracles and you can't go against the will of a being that has no purpose.

I will probably do another post about fate as a system’s purpose, including feedback mechanisms, the circle of death and rebirth, and probably the nature of time.   

25
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus and Nau Cayuti
« on: March 23, 2014, 07:45:04 pm »
@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap.  Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation.  Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside?  It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him).  If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen.  LOL, idk.  :)

Inchoroi = Ghost Busters

The God of Gods already watches itself through the eyes of every souled creature in Earwa. It is a paradoxical creature, it can watch itself so it knows itself infinitely. Thus it defines itself which is another paradox. The Solitary God has no contact with the world so it lacks identity and fits with the sleeping God idea. Following this reasoning, the No-God could be the imprisoned consciousness of the Solitary God, but then why can it control soulless creatures that aren't a part of its being? Btw, i believe that the Solitary God isn't just the sum of souls, it's also the sum of those souls relations, and the properties of those relations.

26
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus and Nau Cayuti
« on: March 23, 2014, 03:37:44 pm »
Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.

Yeah, that's why i think anything she says that doesn't seem to have an apparent cause is suspect, in a way it comes from the darkness. Mimara is pregnant with an important soul (a big part of the God). A fetus is a separate creature, but also a part of its mother while still in the womb. The JE is just the expression of that, she shares God's vision, she remembers more than any other being about the true nature of things.

I believe that the present tense in her POV's represents that her perception is influenced by the God, which is aware of all timespace, so there is no past or feature. If you consider God a system, then time itself is the emergent property that expresses the interaction between it's parts.

27
General Earwa / Re: Inchoroi Gods
« on: March 23, 2014, 01:28:40 pm »
Maybe?

There are more indications. Kellhus and others tell us that every soul is a part of the God. This implies a form of reincarnation similar to Pythagoreanism's. Souls cycle between the outside and the world. Why would the Inchoroi souls return to the Earwan outside if they didn't originate from it?

Also, think on this. The Inchies have already destroyed countless other planets/civilizations in their quest which implies there had to be a lot of other aliens in Bakker's Cosmos. Why is it that none of those aliens came knocking at Earwa's door to escape damnation? Were they all compatible with the Earwan morality? I find it doubtful. It makes more sense to assume they simply weren't damned because they weren't from Earwa.

28
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Dunyain and Nonmen
« on: March 23, 2014, 01:19:53 pm »
I think that the Nonmen are too anthropomorphic for it to be a coincidence. They embraced philosophy sooner, so their society evolved faster than that of the humans. This kind of reminds me of the ancient Greeks. They also had a saying : "Πας μη έλλην βάρβαρος", which means every non Greek is a barbarian. Kind of how the Non Men see humanity.

There is also the fact that even if it's rare, it is possible to interbreed with humans, so their genetics must be extremely similar, implying a common origin. Add this to the fact that we know only about five tribes of Men, and the only other groups we know that could push that number to seven are the Nonmen and the Inchoroi and you can reach some pretty crazy conclusions.

[EDIT]

About the Nonmen magic points, the Gnosis is a tool that hasn't evolved for thousands of years. They are awesome with the Gnosis not because they have honed their minds with logic, but because as philosophers they have a natural affinity for the abstract. It's easier for them to recall their soul's past even if their brain can't store their own memories. Kellhus is a special case, since he has embraced both science and the abstract. He is conceptually (and probably even genetically) a hybrid.

29
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Yatwer and the Greal Ordeal
« on: March 23, 2014, 01:02:30 pm »
Mostly because angelic Ciphrang were mentioned in an interview.

I'd forgotten that piece of info. What i meant by my comment is that they seem more amoral than evil to me. But if they hunger for souls, they are by definition Ciphrang. The Nonman King's shade remarks that although it dreams it is a God, it hungers and Gods shouldn't hunger.

30
I didn't know about the forum archive either. That's nice :). I started reading a little and i already have a new signature!

[EDIT]
Btw, who is FB?

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