[Wilshire]

You just suggested elsewhere that the pouch is a sorcerous object hiding the Chorae, MG...

"Mundane" explanations do not rule out higher intervention. Perhaps Yatwer sanctioned the sorcery used to craft the pouch such that it didn't leave a mark. It can be both sorcerous and 'divine'.

[Somnambulist]

Why are we so convinced that the Anasurimbors can't sense the chorae in the pouch?  They all played along with Sorweel's belief that Yatwer was hiding his face, when in fact Serwe reveals that he truly was the enemy part of the Niom.  If he actually was a Believer King, they would have chosen someone like Zsoronga instead, since he obviously hates them.  Sorweel was running around thinking he'd fooled them all, when that wasn't the case.  I think they all just played along with his beliefs to get him to do what they wanted (standard operating procedure for dunyain).  The greatest manipulators of men in the world would hardly let on to Sorweel (basically an infant to them) that they knew his dirty little secret.  They played him from the start.  They knew about the chorae (imo), which was why Serwe wouldn't take the pouch from him.

Unless I've forgotten a crucial piece of evidence, which is altogether possible.

[Wilshire]

Makes sense to me. I could have sworn that possibility was brought up in the thread somewhere but couldn't find it to quote it for you

There is just too much mystery to penetrate. Without the POV's of the Dunyain to corroborate either side its all conjecture.

It is extremely coincidental that Sorweel is being sent to "play the part" of an enemy within the Niom pact, and I just don't really believe there are too many true coincidences in the books. Based on what I heard from Chapter 3, it seems like Serwa at least cannot 'see' Sorweel (and this bothers her a lot). The daughter is not the father though, and they could be as oblivious to Kellhus' true plans as everyone else.

I'd like to avoid drifting to either extreme opinion of the dunyain/Kellhus. I don't think he/they are ignorant or omniscient, but rather somewhere in between. It is just difficult to know where to draw that line.

[Somnambulist]

I'd like to avoid drifting to either extreme opinion of the dunyain/Kellhus. I don't think he/they are ignorant or omniscient, but rather somewhere in between. It is just difficult to know where to draw that line.

I definitely agree.  I just don't remember seeing the argument against in the thread.  They're definitely fallible but they thrive on contingencies and adaptability.  I honestly don't have a strong feeling either way, but these rabbit holes keep getting deeper and deeper.     I likes me some rabbit holes.  Which reminds me of another topic that occurred to me, but I'm not sure where to put it.  I'll have a look.

Oh, and I kept saying 'Serwe' when I obviously meant 'Serwa.'  Oops.

[mrganondorf]

I like the idea that the pouch chorae is a decoy for the reader.  We expect it to be significant, but really it's been premeditated and the move after that has been premeditated, but the move after that?  There has to be SOMETHING that blindside's the dunyain's in TUC.

[Wilshire]

Oh, and I kept saying 'Serwe' when I obviously meant 'Serwa.'  Oops.

I mess this up all the time. My recent read of TDTCB helped straighten it out a bit, but it is still irritating. Why change one letter

[SkiesOfAzel]

Why are we so convinced that the Anasurimbors can't sense the chorae in the pouch?  They all played along with Sorweel's belief that Yatwer was hiding his face, when in fact Serwe reveals that he truly was the enemy part of the Niom.  If he actually was a Believer King, they would have chosen someone like Zsoronga instead, since he obviously hates them.  Sorweel was running around thinking he'd fooled them all, when that wasn't the case.  I think they all just played along with his beliefs to get him to do what they wanted (standard operating procedure for dunyain).  The greatest manipulators of men in the world would hardly let on to Sorweel (basically an infant to them) that they knew his dirty little secret.  They played him from the start.  They knew about the chorae (imo), which was why Serwe wouldn't take the pouch from him.

Unless I've forgotten a crucial piece of evidence, which is altogether possible.

I am sure they suspect, but i am not convinced they are certain. They seem to worry when they keep seeing love in his eyes. I would go as far as to say that the  gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.

[Wilshire]

I would go as far as to say that the  gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.

This is the overall problem with an unfinished story and characters that are known to lie about everything.

I like this idea, but they fully convinced me they where telling the truth that I never saw it. Now I'm torn .

[SkiesOfAzel]

I would go as far as to say that the  gymnastics demonstration between Serwa and Moe was probably meant to make him reconsider his affections.

This is the overall problem with an unfinished story and characters that are known to lie about everything.

I like this idea, but they fully convinced me they where telling the truth that I never saw it. Now I'm torn .

Lol, i am not saying they lied about their relationship, i am just saying that they timed their push-ups so that Sorweel would bump into them and get jealous. You can have your cake and eat it too

[locke]

Lol, i am not saying they lied about their relationship, i am just saying that they timed their push-ups so that Sorweel would bump into them and get jealous. You can have your cake and eat it too

Wait, you mean this is something people didn't get?  Like it wasn't obvious they were setting up Sorweel to trigger jealousy?

Suddenly all the complaints about that scene make a lot more sense.  Really?  How did people miss that?

[Cüréthañ]

The narrative deliberately obfuscates the nature of K & E's kids to huge effect, locke. 
I think readers like you and I are constantly searching for hints as to what is 'really going on', but the clues are often slight and often contradictory, so much so that it is very easy just to assume they cancel each other and stick to interpreting actions only or just 'miss' things because one is looking for confirmation of other hints.

[Madness]

So many unknowns.

I will say that Kellhus must be able to sense the discrepancy between Sorweel's face and his actions. Whether Kellhus knows who is responsible for the Mask or not, it would be fairly obvious to him from his inability to predict Sorweel's actions from his face.

[mrganondorf]

So many unknowns.

I will say that Kellhus must be able to sense the discrepancy between Sorweel's face and his actions. Whether Kellhus knows who is responsible for the Mask or not, it would be fairly obvious to him from his inability to predict Sorweel's actions from his face.

Makes me think of Kellhus' inference that Old Moe detected the skin spies because of their voices.  Can Serwa and co pull the same trick?

[mrganondorf]

You just suggested elsewhere that the pouch is a sorcerous object hiding the Chorae, MG...

I hadn't thought about it, but I think I assumed that divine intervention and sorcery were on the same continuum.  Maybe like this:

1) Divine Intervention: Magic directly from the outside into the world--it is "markless" because it's mark simply is it's being--divine will/desire holds up every moment/atom of existence both following 'natural laws' and the 'transgress' of such (bunny ears because there wouldn't be laws or transgressions because every act unfolds according to the Plan)

2) Sorcery: Magic from the world to the world--it is "marked" because it is crosses #1

3) Psukhe: Magic from the world to the world 'as if' it came from the Outside or perhaps it's just #1 and a blind human is the conduit.

To me, this would mean we could have 2 or 3 kinds of magical objects.  Most would be like Mim's knife, but some would be like Sor's pouch.  Objects like this could be hiding anywhere!  Does Kellhus have some?  Like a sword that hides a chorae in its blade?

Madness, what do you think?

[Madness]

Hmm... I am increasingly tired and distracted but this brings us back to the age old question of distinguishing works by Psatma, works by the Cishaurim, and works by Sorcerers.