[Spoilers TGO/TUC] Dragged off to hell...

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Dora Vee

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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2018, 01:51:20 am »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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Redeagl

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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2018, 10:43:55 am »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Now with Kellhus and his Zaudunyanni rubbish gone, it does.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2018, 02:17:24 pm »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.

Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).

@Red +1
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Wilshire

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« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2018, 05:24:29 pm »
As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.

Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster .. Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...

You could really replace that story of the Inchoroi with pretty much any story of any main character and it plays out exactly the same.
Kellhus. Moenghus. Xerias. Conphas. Esmenet. Achamian. Proyas. All of them.
Even minor characters: Inrau. Xin.
Entire races: Nonmen. Emwama. Inchoroi.
Can anyone point out a main or minor character that achieved success? Has anyone won?

Really, humanity at large has been the only winner.
The Cuno-Inchoroi wars allowed for the-breaking-of-the-gates and their usurpation of the land of plenty. It lead them to their Nonmen tutors which ushered them into the age of bronze, iron, agriculture, and trade.
Even The First Apocalypse did little else but remove more completely the remaining Nonmen. Its not like it plunged them back into a millennium of tribalism or something.
The lead up to the Second Apocalypse untied humanity under one flag in a way even modern humans would strive for. How different would our world be with but 1 religion, 1 ruler, 1 consistent rule of law applied equally throughout the world?
The Inchoroi's fear lead humans (Dunyain) to usurp not only the Consult and the remaining aliens, but also gain control over the machinations of the gods - or at least the means to remove them from the playing field.

Humanity is, and has always been, the winners of this story. They have vanquished all foes, all aliens, all those that might bond them to slavery. Humanity will become a race of self-moving souls unlike any the universe has ever seen. Masters of a destiny entirely to their own making.

Granted, humans suck and will probably turn the world into a living hell rather than Eden itself, but that's their own fault. Can't be blaming Gods, Aliens from Space, and Aliens under the Mountains at that point.

They are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:26:09 pm by Wilshire »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2018, 06:43:00 pm »
There is another, no less clear winner, namely Sranc.

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2018, 06:50:13 pm »
There is another, no less clear winner, namely Sranc.
At least when the No-God isn't around, they're pretty autonomous and able to make their own societies unencumbered by other races.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2018, 07:12:15 pm »
As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.

Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster .. Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...

You could really replace that story of the Inchoroi with pretty much any story of any main character and it plays out exactly the same.
Kellhus. Moenghus. Xerias. Conphas. Esmenet. Achamian. Proyas. All of them.
Even minor characters: Inrau. Xin.
Entire races: Nonmen. Emwama. Inchoroi.
Can anyone point out a main or minor character that achieved success? Has anyone won?

Really, humanity at large has been the only winner.
The Cuno-Inchoroi wars allowed for the-breaking-of-the-gates and their usurpation of the land of plenty. It lead them to their Nonmen tutors which ushered them into the age of bronze, iron, agriculture, and trade.
Even The First Apocalypse did little else but remove more completely the remaining Nonmen. Its not like it plunged them back into a millennium of tribalism or something.
The lead up to the Second Apocalypse untied humanity under one flag in a way even modern humans would strive for. How different would our world be with but 1 religion, 1 ruler, 1 consistent rule of law applied equally throughout the world?
The Inchoroi's fear lead humans (Dunyain) to usurp not only the Consult and the remaining aliens, but also gain control over the machinations of the gods - or at least the means to remove them from the playing field.

Humanity is, and has always been, the winners of this story. They have vanquished all foes, all aliens, all those that might bond them to slavery. Humanity will become a race of self-moving souls unlike any the universe has ever seen. Masters of a destiny entirely to their own making.

Granted, humans suck and will probably turn the world into a living hell rather than Eden itself, but that's their own fault. Can't be blaming Gods, Aliens from Space, and Aliens under the Mountains at that point.

They are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.
But they won't be free, rather, it is the world itself that will be free from the Gods, moving according to its own. The Dûnyain will still be machines, but now they can truly go crazy without damnation hindering them in any way. What will they do? It's in their nature to keep striving higher and higher, more and more grotesque displays of intellect.

Wilshire

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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2018, 07:29:36 pm »
But they won't be free, rather, it is the world itself that will be free from the Gods, moving according to its own. The Dûnyain will still be machines, but now they can truly go crazy without damnation hindering them in any way. What will they do? It's in their nature to keep striving higher and higher, more and more grotesque displays of intellect.

Right.

[Humans] are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.

But hey, they beat out all the evil aliens and stopped the gods themselves.
I'd still call that a win, though what the Dunyain do moving forward might change that.

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2018, 07:46:50 pm »
Yeah I agree and I quite like it. Bakker breaks another fantasy trope here (I think) by ultimately making humans the superior race.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2018, 08:05:29 pm »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.

Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).

@Red +1

I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2018, 08:20:04 pm »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.

Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).

@Red +1

I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
But remember the parts where e.g. Mimara sees her mother through the Judging Eye and when Sorweel and that Holca are saved. They are so beautiful... it hurts to let go...

Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2018, 08:22:04 pm »
Yeah I agree and I quite like it. Bakker breaks another fantasy trope here (I think) by ultimately making humans the superior race.
Definitely there is usually some kind of 'elves are good at this, and dwarves do that, and humans are somewhere in the middle'. I haven't read much that has humans obliterating all the other fantastic creatures/races lol.
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Dora Vee

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« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2018, 09:17:43 pm »
IMO? Too little, too late.

Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.

This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.

Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).

@Red +1

I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
But remember the parts where e.g. Mimara sees her mother through the Judging Eye and when Sorweel and that Holca are saved. They are so beautiful... it hurts to let go...

Honestly? Not to me. The characters who are "saved" either never mattered to me or they stopped mattering, so they are not sufficient to me. Sorweel is the only exception(well, maybe) and I think he got shafted despite being saved.

I know that I am being very biased here, but that is hardly unique.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:09:22 pm by Dora Vee »
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

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« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2018, 10:43:07 pm »
Quote from:  Dora Vee
Honestly? Not to me. The characters who are "saved" either never mattered to me or they stopped mattering, so they are not sufficient to me. Sorweel is the only exception(well, maybe) and I think he got shafted despite being saved.

I know that I am being very biased here, but that is hardly unique.

This is very y pessimistic view to the series, to me. And, I'm not saying youbdont have a right to your opinion. Its just I see the exact opposite. Of say the characters left, are the most important throughout the entirety of the series.

Akka- Been there since day one. Has come a long way and I think the stage is set for him to redeem himself in so many ways. You know, like saving the world...

Esme- she is the world...

Mimara- quite frankly the most important character left with the ability to do know god knows what to keep humanity alive.

Mimara's Baby- Baby Kellhus?

Meppa- the last of the Psukhe and could play a huge role.

Serwa- while some think she's dead, I do not. And, will be vital to TNG.

Moe JR- The Scyvendli chieftain, who has a choice to side with humanity or the Consult. I think he'll surprise us the most.

I could keep going. Just because your dear Proyasnis dead, doesn't mean that vital characters are still not alive. Don't take this the wrong way Dora, as I'm not trying to be rude. You seem to see things through a very small lenses, and if they don't conform to your view, then, well, you seem to think them useless. And, that is farther from the truth than conceivably possible. Plenty of important characters still floating around. Hell, more than likely, a guy named Kellhus who could be waging a war on the Gods, to end damnation. While counting on these other characters to dispatch the NG. I don't know wether Tao or Tleilaxu said it, but we've been surprised at every turn against our expectations. It would therefore make sense for humanity to pull through when all looks lost, and hardly a chance at all at succeeding.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2018, 10:53:44 pm »
Quote
Of say the characters left, are the most important throughout the entirety of the series.

Of all those listed, only Akka matters to me now. And honestly, I don't necessarily view them as useless in general, I just don't care about them much. Like I said, they either stopped mattering or they never mattered to me. And since the world is not very desirable to me, I see no reason to be anything other than well, how I am. #TeamNOGOD.

Quote
Hell, more than likely, a guy named Kellhus who could be waging a war on the Gods, to end damnation.

I'll believe that when I see it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 03:32:27 am by Dora Vee »
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man