I couldn't seem to post to the ARC thread, but I thought the discussion was awesome
I was gonna make a new thread for each, and let conversation continue. Maybe copy and paste first post from each?
I'm working my way through the ARC sub forum, and would love a way to quote/ respond to thoughts you've already posted, or at least add on to the end.
Just copy and paste.... and maybe add who wrote it above the quote?
Just copy and paste....
We'll see about eventually consolidating the ARC subforum threads into the TGO subforum proper but, personally, I think it's a neat part of the monument - an encapsulated time and space :).An obscenity! As are all monuments, all memorials. What are they but prostheses that pronounce our impotence, our debility? I may live forever, but alas, what I have lived is mortal.
She did not oblige him— but not out of spite, for she cared nothing for the ghoul. She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone. Her next song would command fire and ruin.
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.
So did I, but have you read the ARC thread link posted at the top of this thread? I'd say it's 50/50 on wether her singing will be mundane or sorcery.
The singers came from the west--were they from Ishterebinth?
I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.
I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.
I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.
I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.
+1 :).
She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.
And it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.
I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.
I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.
+1 :).
It certainly seems that it's the gag, not the collar that is the wrench in her (Kellhus') plan though, right? Or was that just how it seemed to me? So when the gag is gone, she can "sing" her sorcery again. Consider:QuoteShe did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.
Then he gags her. Next time we see her:QuoteAnd it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?
@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.
2) Serwa had previously intended to unleash wrack and ruin, but her intended targets are now dead. Circumstances have changed and the actions needed to master the new circumstances have changed as well.
@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.
Thank you.
Also, just remembered one of Madness' favorite quotes from the Tall - "This is our cannibal fate!" Meaning (to me anyway), they would consume/destroy each other. Probably not a new thought amongst themselves, but appropriate for what was about to go down, I think.
Lol - as I do basically every page, I'll just reiterate that I'm with, as MSJ aptly put it, "fire and ruin" :).
It is great points made by CC, though I've always been firmly in the "fire and ruin" camp. I think Som makes a great point also, that most are already aligned with the Vile and you wouldn't want them on your side. But, how many are for the Consult simply because of Nin'Ciljaras being the Nonman King? What I am saying is, are a bunch of them going to be like, "Yay the Consult stooge is dead, glad I don't have to play along anymore.". Or, are they all Erratic and were truly all-in with the Consult's plan? I think Orinaral says that there is only a dozen or so that's Intact, so I think the odds of flipping the Erratics sides is probably a waste of time. Doesnt Serwe even comment that Ish is held by the Consult?
I do agree that this is going to be the death of the race and at her hand, but not by her sorcery. She will lead them against their hated enemy so that they can reclaim a sliver of themselves and extract vengeance against those who murdered their race.
However it comes about, I truly hope this is what we see. Mundane or Sorcery doesn't really matter to me, as long as she can rally them against the Consult, I'm in.
...
They're all going to be damn horrified when they meet up with the Ordeal, though.
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.
Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.
They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…
That's why the last two sentences of my last post are so open ended. We know as a school the Mangaecca were obsessed with cheating death and avoiding damnation. The scene with Shaeonanra is the only time we've seen on the Mangaecca post exile. Of course Shaeonanra is going to get the cool titles and curse names, he's their leader, but we don't know how representative his fate is of the rest of the Mangaecca or if he transitioned to something else. The Consults increased mastery of the Tekne may allow other options. I'm sure Scott is going to show us something truly appalling (and perhaps combat capable) before the end.
Maybe. I'm not so sure after seeing the Gloom in Istererbinth. They don't have to leave home to see horrific things happening to people they care more about than humans. As an alternate possibility, the state of the Great Ordeal might be so horrific that it stirs up memories of the Second Apocalypse of the Cujo-Inchoroi Wars and thus make the Nonmen more sane.
^ It's possible but I wouldn't discount the tactical advantage of the Quya. Once the Inchoroi twins and Mangeacca take the field, all those Anagogic schools won't mean shit.
Do we have any idea of the current strength of the Mangaecca?
As for the Quya...Kellhus is still sort of a Dunyain. They horde every advantage, however small.
I thought we've heard somewhere that the Consult had a few thousand Erratics on their side. I could be making it up, but I thought Bakker said that at one time.
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?
What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?
I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.
I interpreted it as the weird perspective of Nonman statues (as described outside of Ishterebinth, and in Cil-Aujas) dancing in the light of a torch or Cant.What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?
I read this as a dream or vision that Sorweel had and not reality.
Didn't seem a vision to me, it seemed like Orinaral noticed them too.
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced. No more fucking around. The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth. Those who oppose them are known. The Tall just killed their king. I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side." The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out. Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next. Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them. I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point. It's time to clean house.
IMO
At this point, everyone's hand has been forced. No more fucking around. The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth. Those who oppose them are known. The Tall just killed their king. I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side." The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out. Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next. Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them. I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point. It's time to clean house.
IMO
I'm with you--I can't see mundane singing adding anything to the narrative. CC, you make great points, but at some level it's unsurprising that a story has "no one's ever overcome X" and then someone does. I bet we're def going to see crazy rule-breaking shit in TUC (Kellhus will handle a chorae, Kellhus will melt a hole in the ark, Akka will bathe, Kellhus will make a mistake, a nonman will remember, or something else).
Just a few things from the Boatman's song:
"Let us aim our children as spears!" - a pretty Dunyain thing for nonmen to do. Maybe the nonmen are nothing more than an earlier dunyain experiment carried out on a much longer timeline?
"And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety-nine who were as Gods..." - are the gods nothing more than ascendent nonmen/nonwomen? The nonmen on Earwa might be nothing more than the weaker, rebellious sect; not so much avoiding damnation as avoiding the tyranny of submitting to stronger brethren who would punish the rebels for refusing to bow.
That might explain why Earwa is the 'promised world' for the Inchoroi. Let's say in time long long ago, nonpersons ascended to a higher plane of reality/power and thus exercised dominion over the entire physical realm and all of the planets. These 'gods' established hells where they would eat but not for any particular sins--just the stronger consuming the weaker. The inchoroi are displeased with the arrangement and so send out a bunch of Arks in search of the one place that made hell possible.
Anybody have thoughts on the significance of the Boatman singing a 'new' song right where he does on page 327?
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.
They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…
On the other hand they are at the exact location where sorweel was overwhelmed by the joyous and continuous song that used to fill that location, he even notes how special it was to hear the voices of women and children singing there.
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.
' Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.
"why did she wait so long" is a great question.
' Metagnosis is cool and all, but allegedly humans can do it.
Indeed, I think the waiting is a strike against it being sorcery and for it being mundane singing.
There you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.
Oh, I like that. That's good. :DThere you go. Maybe it was both. A cant woven into the mundane song.
Wave function sorcery. A Schrödinger's Cant.
When they grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming the expressions of ancient and inbred men.It's been there in front of us the whole time, the Nonmen are inbred humans. Who judging on what I remember of the song the oldest nonman was singing, went under ground and aimed their children as Spears.
If you're looking at extreme, and rare, Nonman emotions in the recollection of Sorweel, then sure maybe they have some resemblance to sranc. But the difference is the most extreme nonman expression is close to the normal sranc emotions.
What you're doing is like using Cnaiur's reactions to stuff your measure for how a normal human reacts. You shouldn't use fringe conditions to make assumptions on the whole.
A sour smirk was the most Proyas could afford. “There’s more to Cnaiür urs Skiötha than you know, Akka. Mark me. In some ways, he’s as extraordinary as Kellhus.
Exactly. He's human, yeah, but he doesn't react how humans react.
“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”The choice of words uttered is peculiar.
“But I make excuses like a Man. Loss is written into the very earth. We are only its most dramatic reminder.”The sad truth behind the words is eerie, with what we have read about both the depths of Cil-Aujas and the Holy Deep.
Quote from: TPoN prelude“Extraordinary,” the stranger said, then looked to him. Kellhus could see the glitter of his eyes beneath the brow of his helm. “You must be a name.”The choice of words uttered is peculiar.
The choice for the verb "to be a name" rather than the usual "to have a name" is the choice of words I find peculiar. It suggests power/ strength/ something worth remembering, rather than just an identifier.It corresponds nicely with Kellhus words from TGO, btw.
Also, Kellhus himself tells the Nonman his name. The Nonman only corroborates the fact by comparing his face with one of the trophies.Aw, my bad. And also a occasion to reread trilogies with the knowledge of TGO.
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.
Pretty sure something about finding out a Ciphrang's name lets you summon it.
We get explained that the Amiolas "weds" the soul of the one wearing it to the soul of a headstrong and self-punishing Ishroi. I suppose Sorweel's soul got "completed" in a way, making him real and thus unalterable.
Edit: ... because she can no longer see the tears in the fabric of reality that make him false.
I wonder if the nonmen near the bottom of the well achieved the objective of finding the darkness in between the gods. The gods come across as eaters of souls (whether heaven or hell) and the nonmen whose souls were reduced to a personality-less fog (not the Tall at the very bottom but the nonmen just before that, the pig-catchers) might just be repugnant enough to avoid consumption.