I soooo wanna hit those spoiler tags.....damnitt!!!!
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On Kellhus:(click to show/hide)
On Kellhus:(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Truth Shines
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@walter(click to show/hide)
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Thoughts on Akka's dream and Meppa(click to show/hide)
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Great, great post Wilshire. Love it.
regarding the title of the third series, I said it upthread, but it was buried in a big post:(hattip to kal at westeros, I think he's probably right)(click to show/hide)
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On Kellhus:(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Truth Shines
nope, I challenge you to find it anywhere in print on any of the books.Great, great post Wilshire. Love it.
regarding the title of the third series, I said it upthread, but it was buried in a big post:(hattip to kal at westeros, I think he's probably right)(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
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nope, I challenge you to find it anywhere in print on any of the books.Great, great post Wilshire. Love it.
regarding the title of the third series, I said it upthread, but it was buried in a big post:(hattip to kal at westeros, I think he's probably right)(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Is there a date for the post-TUC Scott AMA? I know one was in the planning stages.
I'm confused why people think it's the Consult messing around for no reason. Much more likely (for me):(click to show/hide)
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Had some time to digest and I had some thoughts too:(click to show/hide)
I'm confused why people think it's the Consult messing around for no reason. Much more likely (for me):(click to show/hide)
@Werthead(click to show/hide)
So, hmm. I've written several times in this thread, but I wanted to do a general review, or rather, just how the book made me feel.(click to show/hide)
So, hmm. I've written several times in this thread, but I wanted to do a general review, or rather, just how the book made me feel.(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Stole my nephew's computer again momentarily.Right the momemn stuff is insanely important in this respect. All sorts of subtle cross plot line thematic resonances and foreshadowing are going on. My favorite one being mimara identifying the "will to power" of the dunyain as their greatest sin counterpointed with kelmo learning the LACK of will in the narindar was crucial combined with the revelation that mimara has no darkness coming before as she has no will that manifests her physical Movements into the future (noted by koringhus).
I just wanted to mention - some stuff I talked with Odium and Hiro about yesterday - but gauging people's reactions I think there is a load of subtlety that people have missed in TAE. I'm pretty convinced that Bakker found his Voice writing TGO right on time consciousness-style.
I think there is a load of subtlety that people have missed in TAE
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But yeah, spoiler tags on anything TUC content until the 6th at least.
Thank you :).
Finished. I'll give more thoughts later, but, I really hope there is a 3rd series. Just so many unanswered questions, things left unexplored and plots that was left hanging.
I don't think you've anything to fear, in that regard. I think Bakker has pretty clearly stated that there is going to be a third series of two books, possibly three; in fact, I think in his Reddit AMA, he mentioned that the sequel was even well underway. I might be wrong on that last thing, though. There's definitely going to be more to the series.
Yea, just a matter of when, and what route it takes.
I think Kellhus's ultimate plan was to become a God and dominate the Outside, maybe killi g the hundred. If so, him being salted would be no accident. But, frankly, that's not the feeling I got reading the scene. Felt like he was going to kill everyone and destroy the Ark/carapice and put an end to the threat of The Consult. Only, I think Ajokli being The Trickster led him into being salted. One problem with this though. What does Ajokli gain by killing Kellhus and the No-God walking? Nothing. If anything there stands a chance the the Outside will be sealed and he'll be left howl g at the gates. A lot to digest and definitely need to reread.
I definitely need a reread too, but at one point, Kellhus does state that he made a pact with Hell and I presumed that meant that he would essentially rule Hell, having traded the world for that. Perhaps I misinterpreted though.
Sounds right. I just don't understand what Ajokli gets out of duping Kellhus. Or...are we just interpreting it wrong? Does Ajokli leave Kellhus when he sees Kel because the threat of the Chorae? But, as Kalbear said at Westeros, Chorae doesn't effect the Gods and we have instances of this, such as Cnaüir having a Chorae when inhabited by Gilgoal. I just don't see what Ajokli has to gain by deceiving Kellhus? Or, that is the plan? That's the 3rd option. Kellhus is salted and goes onto rule Hell. But, at the cost of the No-God walking also. Very confusing.
No, I don't think Kel was in his plans at that moment. He was just able to see him, is how I interpreted it. Yet, say Kellhus went back for Kel, knew Kel was the No-God, he did call him a abomination. And, maybe this was his way of ensuring he did indeed go to hell. Knew Esme would release him. Its classic Bakker, that's for sure.
There was a scene where a child attacks a resting scylvendi, stabs him to death in a tent. The scene ends with a female-looking skinspider dealing the final blow to the man with her man-like hands, and then bids the child come with her. At first I thought this was Kelmomas, but now I'm not so sure that it wasn't the crab-hand child without a name.
I guess it being Kelmomas makes more sense because he had to go from being chained in a tent to the Dunyadin-Consult's Golden Hall where the Mutilated would want him to kill Kellhus if they failed to convince him (a wild run-on sentence appears!). But if the Mutilated had captured Kelmomas, why didn't they just box him right away to re-create the No-god? At the center of their power with a hundred tears of god and the No-god to back them up, not even Kellhus and whatever possessed him would stand a chance. Not to mention it would pretty much instantly demoralize/sap the strength of the Great Ordeal. Or am I to assume that they captured the boy but he was able to escape and play with them the same way he did back in the palace? Of that, at least, there was no indication. Maybe the Mutilated really needed the Judging Eye to birth the eventuality of the No-god.
But it being the crab-clawed child also fits since last we saw him he was in the Scylvendi camp running for his life. Arguably he wouldn't just kill someone without reason, but maybe he just needed food and was making it look like someone else settled a grudge. But why would the child go with the skinspider? Some mad dash at hope because he knew the "BAD" consult that had killed his people had captured some of them?
Yea, it seems as though Bakker made a big deal of the scene when Mimara goes to look at Hologram Kellhus. I think that the Judging Eye is what caused the No-God and the time thing going on to "take off", so to say. I think Mimara influenced it somehow.
By the way, what's up with Cnaüir not being able to see the No-God? Proof that he goes on to be more than a Ciphrang? A true Prince of Hell? And, I'm not buying the Kellhus head is still alive bit, so he is definitely in the Outside now too. So did he really get his side of the deal? Did he really dupe Ajokli?
There are a few other bits of weirdness about Kellhus's mirage in that last scene. It 'floats' down like a soap bubble, which I don't think we've ever seen him do. I don't have the exact verbiage but I think it seems to be shined on by some 'other light', and I think there is a brief snow/glitch moment.
A sarcophagus, iridescent black, hovering where her stepfather stands robed in shining white ...
His leonine image smiling ...
One problem with this though. What does Ajokli gain by killing Kellhus and the No-God walking? Nothing. If anything there stands a chance the the Outside will be sealed and he'll be left howl g at the gates. A lot to digest and definitely need to reread.I went back and found this quote:
Yes to first 2, the Consult haven't quite 'Succeeded', yet, since the No-God hasn't killed enough people, but they are on their way.
Yeah, not the way that they intended (plan was for Kellhus to either die to Aurang/The Spearman outside or be converted by the Inverse Fire), but they ultimately got what they wanted (No-God operational, no one left to interfere with their pursuit of the Absolute).
@False Man:
Yeah, that's one of a few really interesting things in the Glossary. It also describes the First and Second Apocalypses using very programmer/operating terminology.
@Heavenfall:
Oh, they definitely wanted Kellhus in the Object. It's just...I think it would have just killed him. He was not invisible to the Outside. He wasn't ever going to be the No-God. That was Kelmomas all along. The Mutilated got lucky, their plan was awry from the start.
I personally prefer the no-god explanation since there must be any number of people with multiple personalities running around.
I don't think you have to be invisible to the Gods to activate the No-God.
The first time it happened because they put Nau-Cayuti in It (or so it seems) so maybe you just have to be very powerful or special (Nau-Cayuti infiltrated the Ark, killed a Dragon, he was a certified badass).
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
Wishful thinking. ;)
Real talk: I still have to mull over a lot of stuff here and do my own full unpacking of my thoughts, but regarding this specific issue, my inclination (and it's just an inclination) now is that Kellhus is still the one pulling the strings. My interpretation of Kellhus as a character is that of a trickster-hero, and that he's also a merging of traditional Western and Eastern mythological hero-cycle archetypes.
I also still have a long-held suspicion that "Samarmas" (or the voice we heard as Samarmas) is actually Kellhus -- meaning he actually is, in fact, the No-God. But at this point I really have no damn clue.Everything that Kelmomas ever said about Ajokli (particularly chapter six of TGO). Ajokli's nature is to raise people up, and then betray (harvest) them at the point of their maximal achievement, thus he turns their victories into defeats (and feasts upon them). Why? Because he is Immortal Malice. The Great Deceiver. The Trickster. The Prince of Hate. And Kellhus is the tastiest, biggest fruit of all that has been ripening and maturing for decades. It's quite the harvest for the god, and he is only acting out his nature.So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
What brought you to that conclusion? I felt when Kel appears that Ajokli left Kellhus and Kellhus got salted. Then his soul would go onto the Outside, where I believe he'd be as powerful as any or most entities.
But do you discount the notion that Kellhus actually did make a pact with the Pit, as he said? Making a deal with the Devil for unfathomable -- but worldly -- power.
So, anyway we slice it, right now Kellhus is a God/Ciphrang on the Outside, right? His soul had to go somewhere and he died before the resurrection of the No-God. So, maybe all is not lost for Kellhus.No. It's a reasonable guess , but my take was that ajokli harvested kellhus.
But nooo, there was a cherry on that cake!(click to show/hide)
The problem with the Ajokli harvesting Kellhus narrative is that Kellhus sees his future when he looks into the inverse fire. He responds to Merk that where the Nonman is fodder, Kellhus sees himself descending as hunger. So at the very least, Kellhus is a Ciphrang. Cnaiur is described by the Judging Eye as a Prince of Hell so Kellhus would be something even greater.
I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.
Because this is such a PROFOUND violation of narrative norms, the entire internet is trying to reassert Kellhus to his rightful place of mastery and victory that all uber-mensch farmboys are always already entitled to. Readership is CONDITIONED to expect that violations of norms are actually a reassertion of those norms, from a certain point of view. I'm saying Kellhus has failed, and he is supper in the outside. All his worldly power, and mastery, and planning were all for naught, they just amplified the degree of his failure.
What is this entire narrative without Kellhus in control?
As for the pact with the pit. Why would such a bargain ever be enforced.
I was thinking the same thing. I just have a problem wondering how Kellhus planned on dying or what have you if Kel doesn't pop up. What I mean, he defeats the Consult, carapice destroyed, then what? Because, I'm pretty sure Kel wasn't part of the plan.My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox. Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli. So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself. I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it. Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.
since he'd know Ajokli.Why? If he doesn't know who the voice is, why isn't it more likely that its Ajokli?
Was Nau-Cayuti invisible to the Gods? Celmomas mentions seeing him, at his death, I think riding with Ajokli and the Gods?He always says the god he sees is Gilgaol and that one of his sons will return to save the world... So his vision and explanation is suspect at best.
I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.All of this :)
Because this is such a PROFOUND violation of narrative norms, the entire internet is trying to reassert Kellhus to his rightful place of mastery and victory that all uber-mensch farmboys are always already entitled to. Readership is CONDITIONED to expect that violations of norms are actually a reassertion of those norms, from a certain point of view. I'm saying Kellhus has failed, and he is supper in the outside. All his worldly power, and mastery, and planning were all for naught, they just amplified the degree of his failure.
As for the pact with the pit. Why would such a bargain ever be enforced.That's, as you mention later, the point, right? Kellhus thinks he's in control, but he is really nothing. He has no cards to hold in the outside. He made a deal with the Trickster God. Why would Ajokli uphold any bargain? Especially after he won?
My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox. Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli. So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself. I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it. Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.
My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox. Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli. So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself. I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it. Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.
I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?
My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox. Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli. So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself. I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it. Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.
I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?
I feel like that is Ajokli talking there though.
Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall? Every major player so far that has thought themselves absolutely assured of victory, all the way back, has been wrong. Moenghus, Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Aurang/Aurax, Cujara Cinmoi, Nil Giccas, The Consult, Titirga, Inrilatas, Maithanet, Proyas, Achamian, Esmenet, Zsoranga...
Why is Kellhus special? What makes him the one who deserves your belief? After all, he spent literally all of TGO trying to convince you (reader/proyas) that he was just a thing. Yet you still can't shake that feeling that he must be good and right because... well because that's how stories work, damnit!
Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty. At the very best you could say that so far the New Dunyain Consult represent the winners in this game of 'certainty makes righteous and the most righteous win'. They survived the calamity at Ishual, they beat the Consult, usurped Aurang/Aurax, defeated Kellhus and Ajokli.
This. Storytelling wise, it makes Kellhus the biggest literary red herring ever.
My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox. Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli. So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself. I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it. Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.
I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?
I feel like that is Ajokli talking there though.
Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall? Every major player so far that has thought themselves absolutely assured of victory, all the way back, has been wrong. Moenghus, Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Aurang/Aurax, Cujara Cinmoi, Nil Giccas, The Consult, Titirga, Inrilatas, Maithanet, Proyas, Achamian, Esmenet, Zsoranga...
Why is Kellhus special? What makes him the one who deserves your belief? After all, he spent literally all of TGO trying to convince you (reader/proyas) that he was just a thing. Yet you still can't shake that feeling that he must be good and right because... well because that's how stories work, damnit!
Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty. At the very best you could say that so far the New Dunyain Consult represent the winners in this game of 'certainty makes righteous and the most righteous win'. They survived the calamity at Ishual, they beat the Consult, usurped Aurang/Aurax, defeated Kellhus and Ajokli.
This. Storytelling wise, it makes Kellhus the biggest literary red herring ever.And to me that seems something like a point Bakker might try to make, insofar as my poor understanding takes me of what he's 'trying to accomplish'
How bout the idea that Ajoklie and Kellhus are one and the same?
Like, the Hundred live across time, right? And sufficiently mean souls can become Ciphrang (see Cnaiur). So maybe Kellhus is the earthly form of Ajokli? Like, the God-form can reach across history, has always been present, etc, but Anasurimbor Kellhus was the living soul that became him.
during the 4 weeks he studied under IyokusAw. A polite way of saying "frightening the shit out of the ancient seasoned necromancer by transmuting teacher's master-class into pupil's streak of scientific breakthroughs".
I figure I'll chime in with my thoughts now that I've had some time to get through a reread of TUC and also a chance to peruse this forum as well as Westeros. I've read the first three books in the PON series at least three times all the way through. I've read the four books in the AE series twice. I think that this series is my favorite fantasy series of all-time and second place isn't even close. It is so different from almost everything else out there. The beautiful prose contrasted with the grittiness of the setting and story weave a powerful spell.
With that said, I think TUC is largely a missed opportunity. I thought that many of the scenes that were unclear upon my first read would yield greater clarity upon my second. Particularly, I felt the like the entire conclusion, from the gold room forward, was muddled. I consider myself to be well read overall, a careful reader and fairly intelligent. What I am not, is a student of philosophy. I was willing to allow for the possibility that the failure to comprehend was solely mine as I am not familiar with the deeper philosophical underpinnings of the second series. When a reread failed to yield additional clarity I went to this forum and to Westeros to see what others had gleaned.
i was disappointed to find the lack of any consensus. For the conclusion of a series I would hope that an intelligent group of devout fans would be able to reach some sort of a general consensus regarding the motivations of the characters and/or a coherent description of what actually occurred.
As much as I love the characters and the setting, overall, I'm disappointed in this ending. I think Scott may have done his best writing during the TTT and in TJE. As the series progressed beyond these volumes many key scenes became too abstract or opaque. In the first series the only scene I can recall that had these shortcomings was when Kell pulled Serwe's burning heart from his chest. I still have no idea how that occurred. In TJE we have another example with the Wight being banished by the Chorae. A cool scene but one that left me wondering what I was supposed to have learned. In WLW, TGO, and TUC these opaque passages became more common. The Head-on-the Pole, the Zero God and the conclusion are just a few of the more egregious examples.
Here are some of the questions/issues I still have:
What are Kellhus' motivations?
Why haven't I been rooting for the Consult all along as shutting the worl to the outside seems to be a reasonable and understandable motivation. It's unfortunate that the population will be reduced but it's better than the alternative!
What is the point of introducing Koringhus and the Crab-handed boy?
Why does the No-God ask "What do you see?"
What significance is the head on the pole?
What is the point of the Judging Eye?
What is the point of projecting an image of Kelhus over the sarcophagus?
How did Serwa overcome the Agonic collar and why would the escape from Ishterebinth happen off screen?
I'm sure I have a bunch more questions but these are off the top of my head. I think this could have been a much, much better book had a good editor forced Scott to be a bit clearer in spots and maybe provided input on a few of the creative decisions the author made.
Apparently the Consult can't achieve that unless they kill everyone else first, but they are enslaved by the Inverse Flame so they are probably wrong anyway. Worst suicide pact ever. Given they have methods for achieving immortality, why even bother otherwise?
edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?
edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
Clear texts? I kind of think there is a lot of Serious Literature that deals with ambiguity and jumbled metaphors.
Unless Moby Dick is just a book about a guy who hates a whale then?
Murakami, Joyce, Burroughs, Pynchon, Wallace et al seem pretty open for interpretation to me. Idk?
Clear texts? I kind of think there is a lot of Serious Literature that deals with ambiguity and jumbled metaphors.
Unless Moby Dick is just a book about a guy who hates a whale then?
Murakami, Joyce, Burroughs, Pynchon, Wallace et al seem pretty open for interpretation to me. Idk?
edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
Ha, Moby Dick is perhaps, a poor example. Merely meant to show how metaphors and digression rule the narrative, despite the simple plot.
Perhaps any Murakami book would be better in terms of murky details and uncertain events. It's not unusual to me based on my anecdotal experience. I've never really considered a denouement to be a critically required component of Serious Literature.
How bout the idea that Ajoklie and Kellhus are one and the same?That's my current best guess of who Kellhus was this entire time. The trickster God tricking himself would be ironic and fitting at the same time. Onkis is a possibility too since she's the goddess of the Darkness that comes before. She's also literally a head on a Pole and Kellhus might technically exactly that at the moment.
Like, the Hundred live across time, right? And sufficiently mean souls can become Ciphrang (see Cnaiur). So maybe Kellhus is the earthly form of Ajokli? Like, the God-form can reach across history, has always been present, etc, but Anasurimbor Kellhus was the living soul that became him.
Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall?....Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty.I can't be sure of course but if there is a paradox then that entails Outside Kellhus being the cause of his own demise which is the cause of Outside Kellhus. He doesn't even have to be in control. I'd actually prefer it if this were written to be a complete betrayal of his past self like Proyas. In terms of narrative I still think the un-moved soul goal is in play and a bootstrap paradox is the only way I can see that manifesting.
Weird that during the "Moenghus is behind it all" discussions some people used Kellhus's mistakes/near deaths throughout PoN as evidence that the Dunyain are fallible and that Moenghus simply fucked up and died. Now some of those same people won't accept that Kellhus could have failed. No, he must have planned it all, he is infallible after all...The very big difference is that Kellhus sees himself in the inverse fire descending as a hunger. So that confirms that he's Ciphrang at least and not fodder. He could have made lots of mistakes but we know what his floor is but not his ceiling. I would argue that if TJE says Cnaiur is a "Prince of Hell" then Kellhus should be that at least as well.
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?
I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
Weird that during the "Moenghus is behind it all" discussions some people used Kellhus's mistakes/near deaths throughout PoN as evidence that the Dunyain are fallible and that Moenghus simply fucked up and died. Now some of those same people won't accept that Kellhus could have failed. No, he must have planned it all, he is infallible after all...^
edit: I feel like you are being a little harsh though. There are millions of papers disputing the meanings and minutae of literature taught in schools and colleges. It's part of the fun, no?
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
Clear texts? I kind of think there is a lot of Serious Literature that deals with ambiguity and jumbled metaphors.
Unless Moby Dick is just a book about a guy who hates a whale then?
Murakami, Joyce, Burroughs, Pynchon, Wallace et al seem pretty open for interpretation to me. Idk?
Yeah, but on Moby Dick, while the text may allude to a metaphor, you understand what event is happening. With Bakker, lately, that's becoming somewhat hard - for the most part, I don't think I'll understand his last book until I read the next one and get a sense of the consequences of what happened, to understand what happened. What comes after explains what comes before, in the Bakkerlit.
Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall?....Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty.I can't be sure of course but if there is a paradox then that entails Outside Kellhus being the cause of his own demise which is the cause of Outside Kellhus. He doesn't even have to be in control. I'd actually prefer it if this were written to be a complete betrayal of his past self like Proyas. In terms of narrative I still think the un-moved soul goal is in play and a bootstrap paradox is the only way I can see that manifesting.
If you want a story answer to why he's different, then he's the only entity in the Outside that might has manipulated the No-God and might have heard voices from him too.
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?
I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
Well, I think Kellhus engaged in a good bit of Daimotic trickery to allow Ajokli into the world. I don't think any of the other 100 have ever actually inhabited the world before.
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.
You think it was Kellhus that ultimately allowed Ajokli to physically inhabit the world? I largely think it was Ajokli, manipulating Kellhus to get him into the ARK / IF room which allowed that manifestation. That's why, imo, we see the Ciphrang escape back into the Outside at the gate - and it was at the edge of the Topos. I assume the Golden Room is the center, or close enough, of the deepest Topos, therefore the closest to the Outside with the thinest barrier, which allows Ajokli to walk right into the world.
Bidirectionality, I think.
Kellhus could not do it without the Daimos and Ajokli, Ajokli without Kellhus and the Daimos. But where Ajokli inhabits Cnaiür seems be be beyond the limit of the Topos too. I think Ajokli, once in the world, is not bound like a Ciphrang would be.
So, I guess we could say it any way we want. I think both thought they were hoodwinking the other too.
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?I don't believe that would be possible. Esemet is Holy. The conversation between Meppa and Psatma all but confirms that the Gods and Ciphrang are huge hungers. Cnaiur is the benchmark. If you're not Cnaiur tier hunger then you probably won't be in the running to be a God.
I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
The trouble, though, with him being in the outside, is the same issue I have with Moenghus Sr. being some kind of super meta-psuke wielder. What you end up with is a dues ex machina that can explain any event, and to me that dampens my enjoyment immensely. Granted, I think Kellhus' ascending into the Outside and reaching back through time much more plausible and possible within the confines of Earwa than Moenghus Sr. theories. But there's still the trouble with, if Kellhus, why not others? Who else is/was/will-be/has-been a god? What about Sejenus, or Moe Sr., Koringhus, etc. etc. It seems to open a can of worms that I have trouble reconciling.Well the Unmoved Soul would presumably be a unique event in history. Cnaiur is going to be a demon but I doubt he has the other skills or even inspiration to become an unmoved soul. I really feel like the Bejunka move that changes all other moves is serving as a metaphor for some gamechanging and unanticipated event. So by process of elimination Bejunka and Unmoved Soul leads me to this Paradox theory since I can't find any other way to reconcile the two.
The idea of Kellhus being Ajokli raises an interesting possibility: are all of the Gods actually people, and could that be relevant?I don't believe that would be possible. Esemet is Holy. The conversation between Meppa and Psatma all but confirms that the Gods and Ciphrang are huge hungers. Cnaiur is the benchmark. If you're not Cnaiur tier hunger then you probably won't be in the running to be a God.
I can imagine Esmenet being either Yatwer, seeing that she is a character whose motherhood has been a pretty significant running theme for her, or even more likely, Anagke, the Whore of Fate, seeing that she is, well, a whore who has had a pretty interesting destiny so far, with lots of ups and downs.
This though does make me recall a quote from Bakker:But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the mostSo if Kellhus is out of play, I can't think of a single reason how Serwe could be revealed to be a pivotal character.
redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the most
important character in the book.
I don't envision the head swapping exactly the same as you.
I think largely the 'head swapping' is more of a soul/mind transfer type deal - Malowebi being the exception. I don't see Kellhus and Ajokli switching heads like helmets.
Also, once Ajokli in 'in' the world, as H mentions, he seems to be able to more freely inhabit people, a la Cnaiur.
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.
There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to? Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?
Even if I stick to the facts of Kellhus salted-Kelmomas in the Carapace-Second Apocalypse started damned ( ;D ) if I know how these things went on.:D
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.I dont think the nature of Earwa precludes the existence of heaven, but I don't think current time-space Earwa has such a thing.
There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to? Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.
There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to? Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
Why? Why does that dominate anything or make anything contrived or convoluted? This series has been a metaphysical tale between a world (Earwa) and its hell/heaven(Outside). If Kellhus has been talking to himself since the Circumfix and guiding the TT, it makes perfect sense that after being salted he is now in the Outside, possibly as part of his plan. Not saying its how he wanted it to go down for sure, but him being on the Outside and still in the game is absolutely no way contrived. Its textual proof if anything.Textual proof in these tales have been known to raise discussion, you might have noticed. ;)
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.
Disappointed in TUC mostly because it feels a bit too head-up-its-own-ass w.r.t the writing style and reveals.
Sometimes you just want it spelled out for you, rather than hidden in allusions, epithets and metaphors. It took me quite a bit to work out who the hell the blind singer was supposed to be, and even now I'm not entirely clear what's going on in those passages, for example.
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.
I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.QuoteWhy? Why does that dominate anything or make anything contrived or convoluted? This series has been a metaphysical tale between a world (Earwa) and its hell/heaven(Outside). If Kellhus has been talking to himself since the Circumfix and guiding the TT, it makes perfect sense that after being salted he is now in the Outside, possibly as part of his plan. Not saying its how he wanted it to go down for sure, but him being on the Outside and still in the game is absolutely no way contrived. Its textual proof if anything.Textual proof in these tales have been known to raise discussion, you might have noticed. ;)
What is a red herring and what not? A lot of people have defended this or that theory. I'm looking at it from what I would find interesting to read ánd what would fit thematically. Failure, the blindness of ignorance and the impossibility of omniscience are themes that underline all these books.
Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.
That was one of the few things I thought we actually did learn though...
Disappointed in TUC mostly because it feels a bit too head-up-its-own-ass w.r.t the writing style and reveals.
Sometimes you just want it spelled out for you, rather than hidden in allusions, epithets and metaphors. It took me quite a bit to work out who the hell the blind singer was supposed to be, and even now I'm not entirely clear what's going on in those passages, for example.
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.
I think the Blind Singer was Iyokus, right, and the No-God is Kelmomas?
Not really. We already knew that its purpose was to seal the world from the outside. All that we really learned was that it needs an Anasurimbor (why?) and it's a "prostheses" of the Ark itself--whatever that means. And then a bunch more questions regarding the "progenitors" and some waffling about the "absolute"
It's still not clear why the No-God exists as it does, why it needs an anasurimbor to pilot it (or what the pilot does) and the "code"/"system" framing hasn't been explained in the slightest.
A little more explanation from the dunyain-consult and a little less Radiation Victim Fucking would have gone a long way. I mean it is the end of the 4 book series.
And on that:
Why was the whole first half even necessary? To damn the souls of the ordealmen? Why?
What the hell was going on with the nonmen in the battle? Did they get confused and start attacking the ordeal?
What is/was kellhus' plan? Why did he even do what he does with the Ordeal? The ajokli pact gets like a sentence or two and is dropped and even then is viewed through a head on a string cursing Likaro. It totally changes Kellhus as an agent and is barely covered.
(What was the point of Akka and Mimara journeying to the Ark beyond exposition? What were they gonna do there? The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?)
I need a recap, I am just more confused frankly.
The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?
The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?
I almost forgot about the Soma/Koll skin-spy protecting Mimara, another thing that got dropped without explanation.
It was one of the reason why I thought her and Esmenet genetically special in some way (even in flashback we never see or learn anything about Esmenet's father or Mimara's).
4: Kellhus' planTo add - Kellhus guessed he'd be in a room filled with Dunyain. He needed something more than himself to take them out - a God.
Pretty much what we see: He intends to destroy the Consult, thus aborting the No-God and saving mankind. He means to use his army to defeat theirs, and Ajokli to destroy their leadership, having reasoned that the Golden Room will be an uber Topos.
Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?
Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?
I'm quite fine with Kellhus failed and he's dead as dead and TSTSNBN relies upon humanity saving humanity, sure. But, every morsel we've learned over 7 books suggest that Kellhus went on to the Outside. Wether that matters one iota or not, I guess, will ultimately lie in Bakker's hands. My only point is it wouldn't feel convoluted to me at all, there is a narrative precedence for Kellhus to be a God/Ciphrang who can effect tho he on Earwa and more importantly would know of the No-God. Its personal preference, yea. I can see it done well either way. But, I don't see it as plot armor.
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.
I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.
And I agree, its maddening.
I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.
And I agree, its maddening.
I guess it is a microcosm of "real life." We rarely ever get to know the full "why" or sometimes even the full "how."
It's all very Cormac McCarthy, which doesn't surprise me, considering Bakker has mentioned Blood Meridian before. How there aren't really an end, just places where the narrative runs out.
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.
I have not read Cormac McCarthy.
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.
I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.
And I agree, its maddening.
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.
I have not read Cormac McCarthy.
Blood Meridian is certainly a tour de force. That doesn't mean it is a book for everyone. Obviously I would recommend it, because there are several things that McCarthy does that Bakker clearly emulates, like evoking something of scriptural tone and theodicy (or something like it that I obviously don't know a smart word for).
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.
I have not read Cormac McCarthy.
Blood Meridian is certainly a tour de force. That doesn't mean it is a book for everyone. Obviously I would recommend it, because there are several things that McCarthy does that Bakker clearly emulates, like evoking something of scriptural tone and theodicy (or something like it that I obviously don't know a smart word for).
Isn't Blood Meridian a western? Or, is it also fantasy too? I looked into it and thought it was a take on a Western, I could be wrong, and hell it might be fantastic. Westerns is just a genre I've never delved into.
It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.
It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.
His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.
It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.
It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.
His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.
Here we go...
The tale is done.
...
Truth Shines!
The tale is done.
Cnaïur: He is always a fascinating character to have around, I also enjoyed every scene he was in. I hadn't realized I had really missed him in this series, even with the scene at the end of TGO. About his confrontation with the No-God, after a quick reread of that scene, it seems like he was possessed by Ajokli? (Or was it Gilgaöl, as some think? Gilgaöl had possessed him before in PON, as I recall...) Not really sure what to say about it, just that I might need to think about it for a longer time.
Here we go...
The tale is done.
...
Truth Shines!
Great to have you hear, hope you stick around :) .
I'm starting to get confused here about what people see as ‘no point’(...) .
Let me ask directly then, what is an important story arc that "had a point", and what makes it different than any one that didn't.
The tale is done.
Nooooooo
Besides the fact that he pretty clearly states that there is gonna be sequels (and I think he is actively writing them too?) I don't think Bakker can let go of Second Apocalypse - I am gonna go out on a limb, and assume that the people who read his non-SA novels are almost entirely made of SA fans, so if his writing endevaours are to continue and prosper (to their relative degree, at least), he'll need more Second Apocalypse to keep his fans together
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1
I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1
I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?
That's right! I remembered that reading the book, then forgot it again until you brought it up.
Maybe it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and we both missed it? ???
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"
It seemed like a domination tactic, I really don't know why it was a teaser
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1
I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?
That's right! I remembered that reading the book, then forgot it again until you brought it up.
Maybe it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and we both missed it? ???
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"
It seemed like a domination tactic, I really don't know why it was a teaser
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"Dunno if it's an euphimism of death (nonmen sons mostly died in wombs or battles), a note of kinship building (a 8000 year culture of battling alzheimer with rape and torture), or a sliped out though about surprise butt sex.
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"Dunno if it's an euphimism of death (nonmen sons mostly died in wombs or battles), a note of kinship building (a 8000 year culture of battling alzheimer with rape and torture), or a sliped out though about surprise butt sex.
It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.
It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.
His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.
You could probably start with No Country for Old Men too, if you really wanted.
But I guess I should have pointed out the genre difference though.
No Country For Old Men has less (and less obvious) elements of influence, but it's also perhaps my favorite standalone book of all time and is a very good introduction to McCarthy's style. It's nowhere near as dense or challenging as Blood Meridian and is actually a relatively "light read" (in terms of accessibility -- it's still bleak as all hell).
On the actual ending. I thought Kellhus saved himself.
On the actual ending. I thought Kellhus saved himself.
It's also plausible that Kellhus' head is either on his own belt at the time, or possibly even on Malowebi's body (even if that is unlikely).
Regarding Kellhus, since the Inverse Fire burned true and since he did see himself not suffering in it, I believe he has been cast to the Outside as a Ciphrang, or absorbed into Ajokli's being somehow.