Reassessing the confrontation between Moe and Kellhus

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Francis Buck

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« on: January 03, 2017, 03:19:51 pm »
CRACKIN' POTS: (This post actually started in the "Meppa's Role" thread, but it ended up becoming huge and sort of a different topic, so I made a new thread for it -- I may get around to talking about how the hell I think Meppa actually fits into this...some day).

Moenghus was and still is, in some capacity, actually helping Kellhus achieve his "destiny"...whatever that may be, as glimpsed by Moenghus and seemingly grasped by Kellhus. After all, practically the whole of PoN is a story of Kellhus gradually realizing that the World has been conditioned by his father, and while Kellhus is certainly aware of this, he nonetheless behaves as if he has, well, free will for lack of a better word (this arguably becomes blurry after the Umiaki Miracle).

Really, though, I think a great deal of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of what the Psukhe is, what the Water is, what the intended meaning of Passion is, and most of all what a soul is. Near the beginning of TGO, when Achamian has the dream of Shauriatas (which we've had access to from the original first excerpt, back in 2013) he mentions the complexity of souls for a good reason:

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“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

There's an undeniable influence of Gnostic Christian myth & theology in the series (particularly when it comes to a lot of the subtleties in Earwa's metaphysics), and one glance at a Gnostic "diagram of a soul/spirit" should give an idea that complexity:



I'm not going to even try puzzling all that out with exact metaphysical analogues from TSA, in part simply because I'm not inclined to believe the metaphysics are fully analogous, but it is a jumping point of sorts.

Getting more to the point, I think a clarification of a few central topics may elucidate some facets of this discussion (or what may be clarifications in my own opinion, anyhow).

The Distinction between Soul & Spirit
This is more or less straight from Gnostic thought, but it appears in plenty of other belief systems in various forms. In common parlance, these words often used interchangeably, but with the metaphysics of Earwa, I think the defining the two notions is key to understanding, well, all sorts of shit in the series.

Basically, the Soul is akin to an exotic form of matter (or energy) which acts as the substrate for the Spirit. What Achamian describes as "the intricacies of identity" -- memory, faculty, character -- are in fact the Spirit of an individual. The things that make you, me, and Napoleon different people.

Souls, on the other hand, are not only identical but are actually the same thing from the same source (again, not unlike the way that all of our own brains are ultimately just made of atoms that once came from stars, etc.). It's useful to think of souls in the singular. Consciousness is encoded in the substrate of matter. Spirits are written on the substrate of Soul.

The Water is Soul, the primordial "sea" from which all Soul originated and, eventually, returned to.

Better yet, just think about the Force from Star Wars. The majority of people that die in Star Wars just...die, like regular humans. But in the case of "great sorcerors" like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, they are able to retain some remnant of their Spirit (identity) even after death, because reasons.

(Also, don't get too attached to the exact phrasing I'm using here because I'm pretty sure things are, as always, a bit more complicated. I'm just going for the main jist of my point here).

So, given all of the above, we can reassess the nature of the Psukhe, a school of sorcery that relies solely on passion. For the sake of expediency, and I will now rattle off a list of my current interpretations of what's going on in a way that may sound like it's totally supported by textual evidence, or as if I think I actually know precisely what's going on. The former is debatable, and the latter is hilariously untrue.

-The Cishaurim, through the art of the Pskuhe and ritualistic blinding, work to strip themselves of a "Self" (identity, spirit) and open their Third Eye (the Heart, seat of the Soul), a conduit to the primordial sea of Souls, called the Water.

-Because the Cishaurim have no Self/Spirit/Identity (or at least a very stunted one), they are also invisible to the gods -- also, by weaponizing pure Soul for their sorcery, it leaves no Mark on World.

-In addition (or alternatively), The God(s?) are blind to the Cishaurim, because by removing their eyes (Windows to the Soul), they've broken the Circuit of Watcher and Watched. It should also be noted that at least one of the reasons the Cishaurim use snakes as their symbiotic sensory apparatus is because snakes traditionally have very poor version, instead relying on taste/scent and thermal detection. This supports the relevance of the Circuit of Watcher and Watched --  the implication is that snakes are chosen deliberately because they do not rely on optical senses. After all, if you're going to use an animal surrogate for lost vision, why wouldn't you use something that's actually better at seeing? Like birds for example...

-The text is deliberately misguiding about the Psukhe and true the extent of the Cishaurim's abilities (or any one else who can tap into the Water for that matter -- I don't believe it's exclusive to the Cish). What the Psukhe lacks in raw power it makes up for in subtly, illusion, scrying, dreamwalking, etc. Because of the employment of a traditional, western concept of the Male Gaze through which the series is (mostly) told, and from the patriarchal society of the Three Seas, the Psukhe is disregarded as inferior, and Cishaurim as abominations so "Other" that barely anyone even tries to understand them. This is, of course, just about the worst possible way to approach the Cish, an institution that's seemingly founded on techniques of subterfuge, misinformation, and working as invisibly as possible. Like a spy organization...


- Contrary to first impressions, the Cishaurim are actually an ideal fit for a Dunyain. The text implies that because of the Dunyain’s “stunted emotions”, the Psukhe was a poor choice for Moenghus. But this is misguided, since as we know, the “passion” that drives the Psukhe is actually the most base parts of the Soul -- which are not so much stunted by the Dunyain as mastered by them.



Conclusion

The climactic confrontation between Kellhus and Moenghus in TTT can be thought of as akin to the scene in The Empire Strikes Back, when Luke is training on Dagobah and ventures down into the cavern. At first, he seems to find Vader down there, confronts him, and defeats him, only for it to be revealed that it was himself all along.

It’s been theorized many times that what makes Kellhus special is that he doesn’t just read faces -- he reads souls. This is why the people that contend with him are broken/enlightened based entirely on truths about themselves.

When Moenghus blinded himself, he sheared away his spirit, his identity -- the things which made him different from Kellhus -- thereby becoming a kind of reflecting pool for his son. This is why the conversation between two is so hotly debated and interpretive.

Kellhus is quite literally having a conversation with himself. He went down into the Nonman Mansion to do precisely what Nonmen do -- reflect upon himself.

And because Moenghus had made a mirror of himself for Kellhus, it allowed Kellhus the opportunity to glimpse the Darkness that Comes Before him, which is very well symbolized when Cnaiur and Serwe approach from behind moments before he uses the Cant of Transposition.


Bonus:
The Scylvendi’s swazond are, in fact, an example of what Achamian calls “the crude sorceries used to trap” souls. This is part of what makes Cnaiur so powerful and age-defying. By capturing the raw soul of his victims, he actually makes his own soul stronger.




« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 02:43:20 pm by The No-Mod »

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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 05:09:28 pm »
Damn son!  This is going to take me weeks to unpack.  Let me start small:

-The text is deliberately misguiding about the Psukhe and true the extent of the Cishaurim's abilities (or any one else who can tap into the Water -- I don't believe it's exclusive to the Cish). What the Psukhe lacks in raw power it makes up for in subtly, illusion, scrying, dreamwalking. Because of the employment of a traditional, western concept of the Male Gaze through which the series is (mostly) told, and from the patriarchal society of the Three Seas, the Psukhe is disregarded as inferior abominations so "Other" that barely anyone even tries to understand. This is, of course, just about the worst possible way to approach to the Cish, an institution that's seemingly founded on techniques of subterfuge, misinformation, and working as invisibly as possible. Like a spy organization...

I think at another level, and Bakker alluded to this "problem" about why the Psukhe remained "unknown" for so long with a quote that "to someone with a hammer, every problem is a nail", is the same reason why European philosophy never encountered it's own ilk outside the Eurosphere.  That is to say that once European thought placed the utmost import on "Reason" and formal "Logic" the road of anything else was functionally closed.

I had a college profession many years ago, who had lived in Tanzania for a number of years, she would tell us that African minds had thousands of years worth of a more "lived" philosophy that didn't place any premium on logic or reason and so was instantly discredited by Western minds as "primitive."  (I assume she wasn't totally bullshiting us, even if she might have embellished at points.) So the same with the Gnosis, I would imagine.  Once the Nonmen walked down the path to place formal structure paramount, via language, the path of non-ligustic, or intuitive, passion driven work was essentially cut off.

I think this goes toward your further point, of why a Dunyain and the Psukhe seem to not jive.  Dunyain place the Logos (a form of logic) above all and so, cut themselves off from the font of the Psukhe's power.  It isn't that passion is missing, per se, but rather the whole formulation of problem solving is fundamentally opposed to the method of the Psukhe.

I need to marinate on these things more...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 06:17:13 pm »
not going to comment on Moenghus and his puskhe power

Passion, being a base instinct, makes sense that it would be part of 'the legion within' that all Dunyain must yoke to survive in Ishual. That it could then later be wielded rather than closed off is a great idea.

Spirit/Soul.
Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure I fully agree with your interpretation of what's what, but that they are discrete things is also a helpful way to view Earwa. Nomenclature is important, and this helps me parse things (I think?).

Question, that the gods are blind to the Cish themselves, rather than just their sorcery, is an assumption, yeah? There's no text that says that right? Not that the absence makes you wrong, just wanting to be sure.
Anyway, that's also a great rabbit hole. Lots of implications, I think, if you consider that the Cish are a blindspot of the God(s), just like the consult's weapon races. Intellects without souls (tekne creation), and Souls without Spirits (puskhari). Maybe, then, the God(s) are blind to things without a Spirit, rather than souls, aka, sranc don't have a 'self'(Spirit), so they are incomprehensible and therefore invisible.
Though, that makes me wonder, the NG possessing all the sranc.... something. Another time.

Great post :)
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 06:28:22 pm »
Anyway, that's also a great rabbit hole. Lots of implications, I think, if you consider that the Cish are a blindspot of the God(s), just like the consult's weapon races. Intellects without souls (tekne creation), and Souls without Spirits (puskhari). Maybe, then, the God(s) are blind to things without a Spirit, rather than souls, aka, sranc don't have a 'self'(Spirit), so they are incomprehensible and therefore invisible.

IIRC, all we know is that they are not Marked as a result of the Water.  We don't actually know if the gods see them or not.  My guess is they do see it, but there is no difference between changes exacted by the gods and changes by the Water.  No discrepancy means no Mark, I would imagine.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 06:54:29 pm »
Yeah but that dead horse has been beaten enough. This is new and shiny :)
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 07:57:07 pm »
not going to comment on Moenghus and his puskhe power

Passion, being a base instinct, makes sense that it would be part of 'the legion within' that all Dunyain must yoke to survive in Ishual. That it could then later be wielded rather than closed off is a great idea.

Spirit/Soul.
Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure I fully agree with your interpretation of what's what, but that they are discrete things is also a helpful way to view Earwa. Nomenclature is important, and this helps me parse things (I think?).

As per souls/spirits, I should also further clarify my...attempt at clarification. RSB doesn't seem to use that actual distinction of verbiage in the text, as "soul" seems to be the go-to phrasing. However, the metaphysical system I described there is something that I think is definitely at play.

The phrasing used in the series which I think can be seen is in Kellhus's talks with Proyas throughout TAE, and the way he refers to the Lesser Proyas and the Greater Proyas. Again, I think it's all a bit more complicated than I'm making it out to be (mostly just because RSB's creating his own system here, and not duplicating an existing one wholesale), but this also helps explain what goes down between Proyas and Saubon.

The Lesser Proyas (the Worldly incarnation of Proyas) is weak, which makes the Greater Proyas (the Spiritual part) strong. This is reversed in the case Saubon. A massive, nearly all-encompassing theme/motif of the series is "inversion". Everything's flipped upside down and turned inside out. It permeates every aspect of the series, from metaphysics, to worldbuilding, even down to names (surname first, given name second).

Saubon's error is seeing Kellhus as the embodiment power. Saubon believes that strength while living is all-important, and further more, he is precisely described as being incapable of truly worshiping or submitting to another man. This makes Saubon strong on the outside, but weak on the inside.

Upon death, one is "turned inside out"...so in the Outside all that Worldly strength is useless, because the inner-self is what gets exposed.

Proyas is the opposite. Suffering, doubt, self-hatred, self-loathing -- these make you truly strong. Being broken to such an extent you cannot be broken anymore.

Of course, all of this inverting/subverting works specifically because the series is written with a traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian (ideally male and heterosexual) perspective in mind.

Question, that the gods are blind to the Cish themselves, rather than just their sorcery, is an assumption, yeah? There's no text that says that right? Not that the absence makes you wrong, just wanting to be sure.
Anyway, that's also a great rabbit hole. Lots of implications, I think, if you consider that the Cish are a blindspot of the God(s), just like the consult's weapon races. Intellects without souls (tekne creation), and Souls without Spirits (puskhari). Maybe, then, the God(s) are blind to things without a Spirit, rather than souls, aka, sranc don't have a 'self'(Spirit), so they are incomprehensible and therefore invisible.
Though, that makes me wonder, the NG possessing all the sranc.... something. Another time.

I don't believe there is any specific textual evidence for the Gods being blind to the Cishaurm, that's just some idle speculation on my part (in fact it wasn't even something I thought of before writing this post, though I think there may be something to it).

Regarding your thoughts on the weapon races, I believe that is definitely the right track. I also think that the weapon races have been deliberately set up as a way of twisting the reader's expectations down the road, particularly regarding the Skin-Spies, but even Sranc and Bashrag. I have no clue how it will play out exactly of course, but I feel pretty strongly that idea of the Tekne creations being mere soulless husks will be flipped on its head and used as an example to show reader's that, functionally, there is no real difference between consciousness as experienced by a human and consciousness as experienced by a Skin-Spy, other than programming (and anatomy, I guess). Both are equally subject the Darkness that Comes Before, and humans possess no substantially greater level of "freedom" compared to the Skin-Spies. In fact, one could say the Skin-Spies are even more liberated than humans. Sure, they're yoked to the Inchoroi's commands by promise of sexual release, but then...look at Cnaiur and the Thing-Called-Serwe in TGO. Who seems more free in that dynamic? Who's playing who?

Same goes for Kellhus's dominion over just about everyone. He simply has more tools at his disposal. Swap Proyas's religious piety for sexual release, and he's just as much a puppet for Kellhus as the Skin-Spies are for Aurang...

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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 08:13:32 pm »
I've recently had some introspection with consciousness after reading Peter Watt's Blindsight. I'd have to say that consciousness is so vaguely /poorly understood that it certainly seems to me that when looking at a human and a skinspy or other weapon race, the functional difference between them is nil.
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 09:27:30 pm »
The Lesser Proyas (the Worldly incarnation of Proyas) is weak, which makes the Greater Proyas (the Spiritual part) strong. This is reversed in the case Saubon. A massive, nearly all-encompassing theme/motif of the series is "inversion". Everything's flipped upside down and turned inside out. It permeates every aspect of the series, from metaphysics, to worldbuilding, even down to names (surname first, given name second).

Saubon's error is seeing Kellhus as the embodiment power. Saubon believes that strength while living is all-important, and further more, he is precisely described as being incapable of truly worshiping or submitting to another man. This makes Saubon strong on the outside, but weak on the inside.

Upon death, one is "turned inside out"...so in the Outside all that Worldly strength is useless, because the inner-self is what gets exposed.

Proyas is the opposite. Suffering, doubt, self-hatred, self-loathing -- these make you truly strong. Being broken to such an extent you cannot be broken anymore.

Of course, all of this inverting/subverting works specifically because the series is written with a traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian (ideally male and heterosexual) perspective in mind.

The comparison of Saubon with Proyas you just made is, in my opinion,valid.
I somehow started looking for such parallels-going-antithesis the moment I read Saubon's death at Dagliash. The hint of Saubon seeing himself at Mengedda is an obvious hint that all the pieces on the board are in place and that the final scheme has just been set into motion (almost litteraly by Kellhus pushing the typical "Red Button").
The nuke at Dagliash creates (or reïnforces? Although I don't think the death of the Nonmen and the Diurnal there created one) a topos, a link to the Outside. The way we see it through the eyes of Saubon, I read a connection between the topoi at Mengedda and the one at Dagliash.

At the same time, we have a few parallels of severe underground trauma during the whole series:
*The death of Moenghus at the hand of his son Kellhus: I found your analysis above, very interesting and it obviously got me thinking.
*The death of Oinaral at the hand of his father Oirunas
Both deaths happen at the bottom of a Nonman mansion, in both cases, Knowledge (capital K) is at stake... If I push that further, it might even be the recovery of Memory (capital M), or the grasping of the plan, or of what is at stake.

And:
*The wight under Cil-Aujas: The scene is that of a haunted Nonman, which ends in a big explosion of something at the bottom of the Great Medial Screw
*The detonation of the nuke at Dagliash: The detonation happens at the top of the Well of Viri, basically a chimney pipe into the mountain
The detonation in Cil-Aujas is described more as an echo than as a genuine explosion

I'm inclined to believe that these events, just like Dagliash and Mengedda, are connected through Kellhus and TTT.

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Regarding your thoughts on the weapon races, I believe that is definitely the right track. I also think that the weapon races have been deliberately set up as a way of twisting the reader's expectations down the road, particularly regarding the Skin-Spies, but even Sranc and Bashrag. I have no clue how it will play out exactly of course, but I feel pretty strongly that idea of the Tekne creations being mere soulless husks will be flipped on its head and used as an example to show reader's that, functionally, there is no real difference between consciousness as experienced by a human and consciousness as experienced by a Skin-Spy, other than programming (and anatomy, I guess). Both are equally subject the Darkness that Comes Before, and humans possess no substantially greater level of "freedom" compared to the Skin-Spies. In fact, one could say the Skin-Spies are even more liberated than humans. Sure, they're yoked to the Inchoroi's commands by promise of sexual release, but then...look at Cnaiur and the Thing-Called-Serwe in TGO. Who seems more free in that dynamic? Who's playing who?

Same goes for Kellhus's dominion over just about everyone. He simply has more tools at his disposal. Swap Proyas's religious piety for sexual release, and he's just as much a puppet for Kellhus as the Skin-Spies are for Aurang...

I was thinking the same: Kellhus basically commands TGO as the No-God commands the Sranc.

Since the eyes as the window the the Soul was mentioned earlier, there is a passage in the Dagliash scene where Kellhus warns everybody to run away, in which the choice of words intrigued me:

Quote from: The Great Ordeal, hardcover p.376, Bold and Italics are in the book
Flee Dagliash! his voice boomed. Across the Erengaw and the root of the Urokkas, the combatants looked up and wondered.
Flee! Hide yourself from its sight!
It's specifically the last sentence, turned as if Dagliash could see/witness.
I know it's a relatively common turn of phrase, but still: It's not usually about a location.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 09:47:06 pm by Monkhound »
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 09:30:33 pm »
From Koringhus, TGO

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And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture . Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation . At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos. Zero. Zero made One.

I liken this to what you say on the Greater and Lesser Proyas and the Lesser (wordly) being weak, ignorant to the truth. Mimara also says something along the same lines in TJE (i believe). What makes you holy is being blind, ignorant and weak. Along with other things both Koringhus and Mimara mention.

ETA: does Mimara ever look on Som with the judging eye? Seems not. But, that would be interesting to see if it's mentioned. Som is definitely around when the Eye opens. If Skin-Spies had souls don't you think that would be mentioned? I think it's the exact reason Mimara knew Som was not a man. I don't buy the idea of products of the Techne having a soul. That goes against what the Consult is trying to do to begin with.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 09:49:58 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 09:53:51 pm »
@Monkhound

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The nuke at Dagliash creates (or reïnforces? Although I don't think the death of the Nonmen and the Diurnal there created one) a topos, a link to the Outside. The way we see it through the eyes of Saubon, I read a connection between the topoi at Mengedda and the one at Dagliash.

Dagliash was a Topoi long before the Nuke. The link between Saubon and the Outside was established on the fields of Mengedda, the largest Topos a in Earwa. His feat was just a revelation of the moment. Having Dagliash being A Topos in and of itself probably didn't hinder the connection. I can agree on that.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:01:04 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2017, 09:57:04 pm »
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?

If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2017, 10:13:58 pm »
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?

If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.

I'd like to go back and read and see if we can pick up any subtle clues. She does remark in Cil-Aujus that he is not a man. So, I think through her training from Kellhus she picked up on that. But, more than anything I go back to Canuir's with the SS's during TTT. We find a lot out about their nature in those moments. And, nothing textually points to them having souls. Maybe, a twist, but I find it supremely unlikely. They used the Skin-Spies, Hashtag and other creations to help in reducing the population of Earwa, ergo the amount of souls. There is said to be At and beyond number, that would hinder reducing the amount of souls in Earwa. And if souls are what are needed to resurrect the No-God, a concept I am coming around to, why not just use the countless Skin-Spies to fulfill that role? Nah, all signs to point to product of the Texhne NOT having souls.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2017, 10:18:41 pm »
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?

If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.

Yea, I'd say. Remember what makes Sorweel the perfect canidate for Yatwer is his ignorance. I've quoted all the evidence for this in numerous threads. This is why I feel that his revelations with the Nonman will awaken him, therefore turning him away from Yatwer. That's my reading. Though it could still be he is the one to kill Kellhus, of me simply put of his hatred for killing his father. I find it unlikely though, because the last we see him, his love for Serwa is shining through and I believe he will find that she may love him also.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 10:22:42 pm »
Quote
Bonus: The Scylvendi’s swazond are, in fact, an example of what Achamian calls “the crude sorceries used to trap” souls. This is part of what makes Cnaiur so powerful and age-defying. By capturing the raw soul of his victims, he actually makes his own soul stronger.

I love this and give meaning to Moenghus asking and say I u he needed Cnauirs strength. Great observation.

ETA: sorry, I'm very incapable of multi-quoting, hence the 35 posts. But, I'm very excited to see some activity on the board and some great conversation here.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:24:25 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Francis Buck

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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 10:25:04 pm »
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?

If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.

I'd like to go back and read and see if we can pick up any subtle clues. She does remark in Cil-Aujus that he is not a man. So, I think through her training from Kellhus she picked up on that. But, more than anything I go back to Canuir's with the SS's during TTT. We find a lot out about their nature in those moments. And, nothing textually points to them having souls. Maybe, a twist, but I find it supremely unlikely. They used the Skin-Spies, Hashtag and other creations to help in reducing the population of Earwa, ergo the amount of souls. There is said to be At and beyond number, that would hinder reducing the amount of souls in Earwa. And if souls are what are needed to resurrect the No-God, a concept I am coming around to, why not just use the countless Skin-Spies to fulfill that role? Nah, all signs to point to product of the Texhne NOT having souls.

Or perhaps they simply do not have souls yet, which in the timeless Outside would mean they do in fact have souls, and only appear to be void from the limited perspective of a mortal...