Might be his ace-in-the-hole in the war: an army that doesn't need to be marched anywhere, just summoned when you got there.That'd sound about right, if the whole army just turns out to be a bluff and a ruse, not at all the actual forces that'd be used. All those people going through all that pain and death - not for glory, but to be the distraction in a sleight of hand and nothing more. Yeah, that sounds about right for the series!
Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.Well we don't know. He might very well have performed a chain of jumps here too, with the first jump just covering the 15 meters to the top of that waterfall, or something.
So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.They could have walked the Shadow Way (or whatever it was called), like Akka and Xin did in TWP.
2) Meta-Daimos:Great idea, I love it. Just the kind of surprise that Kellhus would love to spring on the Consult. Possibly his demon army even will include some of the Hundred.
3) Meta-Compulsions:Possible, but would need to be severely limited to be believable - i.e. he needs to know the dreamer and/or his location really well or something. Otherwise this potentially could have saved stupendous amounts of time and lives in the Wars of Unification and it would beg the question why it hasn't been used before. But then again, it might be possible to argue that it is a capacity he doesn't want the Consult to know he has, which is why he hasn't used it enough to raise their suspicions, etc.
Moenghus was able to communicate via dream, even though he was supposedly weak in the water, all the way to Ishual. Kellhus would have been easily more adept at this kind of thing.
Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?
Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room.Well we don't know. He might very well have performed a chain of jumps here too, with the first jump just covering the 15 meters to the top of that waterfall, or something.QuoteSo, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly.They could have walked the Shadow Way (or whatever it was called), like Akka and Xin did in TWP.
1) Teleportation: It's been accepted as doctrine that a metagnostic sorcerer can teleport the distance of horizon to horizon, or distances relative to that which they can reasonably see. While this may be true of world-born sorcerers (and half-Dunyain for that matter), I'm not so sure it applies to Kellhus himself, being full Dunyain. Leaving the underground Mansion after knifing Moenghus, he obviously couldn't 'see' Shimeh, yet he popped into the sky above it, assumedly straight from that underground room. With his mental faculties, he could easily have studied the landscape and held that target in his mind for probably an indefinite period of time, thus negating the need to see his destination.
On a tangent, but directly related to this subject, back when Sasheoka was assassinated by the Cishaurim, thus sparking the war between the Scarlet Spires and the snakeheads, I think it was Eleazaras who related that the Cishaurim simply popped into view in their deepest, most secure sanctum. So, the Cish not only had the ability to teleport, but to teleport to someplace they couldn't see directly. This, to me, is evidence that Moenghus had the knowledge, if not the power, on how to accomplish this feat. Maybe the fact that they're blind actually helped them, as they can't really 'see' in the traditional sense anyway. Just food for thought.
2) Meta-Daimos: This has been brought up in another thread as a possibility. I think it's an inevitability.
3) Meta-Compulsions: Isn't this essentially what the Whelming is?
Couple this with dream communication. Moenghus was able to communicate via dream, even though he was supposedly weak in the water, all the way to Ishual. Kellhus would have been easily more adept at this kind of thing. My postulation, in this instance, is that he could have dream-contacted the people he knew before he left and put the whammy on them (scientific term here). In this scenario, once he had them firmly under his control, he may have used them the purge the rest of the Dunyain, leaving only those loyal to him left. Then he shows up, completes their whelming, destroys Ishual and inserts his slaves into his army. Others have postulated that there may be full Dunyain under Kel's control. Not my idea, but if that were true, maybe this is how he did it.
Quote2) Meta-Daimos:That we are going to see some Demonic sorcery or other seems inevitable, with both Kellhus having walked the Outside and Iyokus being on the Ordeal, but I never envisioned something of this scale until you brought the possibility up.
Akka reflects that Gnostic dream communication is impossible unless you know the exact location of the dreamer. Anagogic and gnostic dream communication is only shown between two sorcerers (but that is possibly because of the impiety associated with sorcery). Moe sent dreams a whole bunch of dunyain at the same time.
After all the time he had to hone his sorcerous skills, I'd expect awesome overpowered moves once the ordeal meets some really powerful enemy!
Meta-gnosis: As far as offensive capabilities we've seen next to nothing. At least nothing specific. There never was a scene like: “Kellhus uses Meta-Gnostic cant X which does X”. But we can assume he would be extremely powerful.
The Consult must have been preparing too! I bet they’re busy digging another very deep hole thinking “Hey it worked once, didn’t it?” XD
P.S.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, still learning :-P
Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants.
To the second point, my belief is that the Scarlet Spires were aware of the shadow way and would have erected wards to combat it. Seems no one ever expected transposition to be a possibility, so they were taken completely unawares.
To the second point, my belief is that the Scarlet Spires were aware of the shadow way and would have erected wards to combat it. Seems no one ever expected transposition to be a possibility, so they were taken completely unawares.
Reaching ;).
In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?
I'll go through my reasoning. So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant. Fast-forward 20 years. There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon. This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe. She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch. She's able to do this 2-4 times a day. Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant. Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically. Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants. My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it. Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet). Crackpot?
Esmenet suggests that Kellhus can only move to places he can see from a distance or that he knows well to whatever degree. Kellhus had given his last sermon above Shimeh, with the city strategically behind him (I'm sure Dunyain have a kind of eidetic memory).Quote from Madness, my bold for emphasis. Kind of puts a whole in the theory a bit and explains why he could jump to Shimeh from underground.
In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?
I'll go through my reasoning. So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant. Fast-forward 20 years. There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon. This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe. She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch. She's able to do this 2-4 times a day. Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant. Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically. Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants. My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it. Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet). Crackpot?
It's weird how he can automaton like do all this while apparently mad as a hatter.
I like that idea of a 'tiring hex.In terms of piecing together evidence rather than direct text, your hypothesis sounds plausible. Though I wonder about the conveniently 'tiring' aspect - I wonder if Serwa was simply taught a weakened version of the cant. Teleportation really aint going to weaken you - not in the physical sense. Either you come through fine, or you come through with tears throughout your body, leading to brain clots and death (my estimate, anyway). I'd suspect she was taught a version that actually casts a very light 'tiring' hex upon herself. To keep up the game of second guessing by both sides.Do we have any information about metagnostic casters getting tired when they teleport? To be honest I thought they hadn't even achieved that? I miss reading something?
I'll go through my reasoning. So, the first cant Kel wants Akka to teach him is a cant of calling, which he then turns into a cant of transposing by adding a second inutteral string, thus making it a meta-gnostic cant. Fast-forward 20 years. There are a couple of descriptives in the text (both in TJE and TWP) which indicate that the limitation of transposing is horizon to horizon. This is illustrated by Serwa and her jumps with Sorweel and Little Moe. She's half-Dunyain and a meta-gnostic witch. She's able to do this 2-4 times a day. Saccarees is described as the first sorcerer to utter a meta-gnostic cant. Assuming he's world-born (and not a Dunyain plant, as some have suggested), he also should be able to perform a cant of transposing, theoretically. Also important is that he was the first to do so (after Kel, of course), implying there are more sorcerers capable of meta-gnostic cants. My hypothesis is that world-born sorcerers need line of sight (i.e., horizon to horizon), whereas Kel can hold a destination in his mind (because of his superior mental faculties) and thus doesn't need to see his destination physically to transpose to it. Transposing is arduous, though, which is probably why we don't see world-born sorcerers using it (yet). Crackpot?
It's weird how he can automaton like do all this while apparently mad as a hatter.
So I'm not sure what to think. If Moe really didn't plan it, it seemed like it still very much worked out in his favor.
Likewise, I believe Moenghus has been underestimated greatly. Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but 30 years in the world of men is still longer than Kel has been there, even by the end of TWLW (around 22 years?).
I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.
Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, anyone think there are other sorcerous goodies Kellhus has Red-Bulled? I wonder about the Psukhe sometimes.
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board.It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.
Does he have other sons?Yeah, that's a good question.
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board.It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.
Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"Makes sense. From what we know it is reasonable to conclude that he knows that his Psûkhe-fu will be weak, due to his stunted emotional life.
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.
Some other things to consider is that the "water" pouring from their forehead seems to be directly linked to their soul. One of the ciphrang at the end of TTT is able to yank a Cish's soul from his body just by grabbing onto the energy beam.
On the other hand, it could be possible to add an emotional/Psûkhe component to the Gnosis. Maybe that is what Titirga did.
Indeed. That's why I don't for a second think Kellhus is truly mad, but only (ironically) by Dunyain standards. The only person that considers him mad is Moe, and he couldn't grasp the TTT. Kellhus did. I feel like this may end up being one of the bigger connections to Dune in the series. Moenghus (Paul Muad'dib), the father of the God-Emperor Kellhus (Leto), and instigator of the Shortest Path (Golden Path), started a plan he thought would work, but he didn't have the balls to really go through with it. Kellhus (Leto) does. Years later, Moe (the Preacher, sun burnt and disguised, conveniently vague about his past) is returning to oppose his son, not realizing that Kellhus (Leto) is actually doing something far greater than he had ever imagined. What that is exactly, I do not know. But overall, I think that's a serious possibility about where the story is headed.
On westeros at some point we were going through a lot of the things that Moenghus had orchestrated throughout the plot. I got all excited thinking that on top of everything, he'd orchestrated the assassination of Sasheoka in order to goad the SS into joining the Holy War. It made sense since Moenghus had done so much else to orchestrate it. And it was plausible that Moe would need the SS to get involved as it was suggested that the Holy War might not march unless they had the SS despite their misgivings about Schools because they couldn't imagine defeating the Cishaurim otherwise.
If Moe really didn't plan it, it seemed like it still very much worked out in his favor.
The reason I bring all of that up is just to circle back to what the Cish did or did not do when they assassinated Sasheoka. The description is pretty badass as if a door of light opened up out of nowhere with three hellish silhouettes within. I want to believe it's some teleportation that Moe designed. Is there any way to know?
If it wasn't Moe in any way, we're left to wonder what exactly the Cish pulled off and what they're capable of.
If Moe was involved, might we not wonder then if Moe had more facility with Water all along?
A fortuitous correspondence of cause if ever there was one. But then, certain instances worked out in Kel's favor, too (the whole 'punish the Shrial Knights' thing, for instance). Almost like the world conspired to make things happen. But I digress. There are a few things that make me think it was still Moe behind the assassination.
I wondered about this passage for a long time. It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment. He could have kicked something in the dark at any time. Why then? Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions? I don't know, but it still nags me.
It does make sense that Kellhus' limitation are closely tied to Moenghus', which is probably why these topics tend towards the same thing every time they are brought up. How much of Kell's accomplishments were set up by Daddy? None of them, all of them, or somewhere in between.
I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.
Does he have other sons? We don't know and it may be, but have we seen any proof of it? I mean with Maitha we could at least wonder if he wasn't half-Dûnyain thanks to his descriptions. It would be silly if in the UC a charachter popped up as another son of Moe without having been shown at all before. (I'm not saying it's impossible just that it would seem weird to me)
To wrap it up I don't think Moe has anything else to show us. Sure maybe we'll get some answers about minor details regarding him but I would be extremely surprises ( and disappointed ) if it turned out that he still was the mastermind after his death.
I don't have the books in front of me, but I was always under the assumption that the Consult were behind the assassination, as part of their desire to eliminate the Cish (IIRC, they were concerned about their inability to place skin-spies in Shimeh which they incorrectly was related to the power of the Cish).
I havent read the first trilogy in a few years, so forgive me if I am forgetting something obvious to disprove my assumption here.
As another option: We know at least one skin spy had a soul and was able to use sorcery... maybe there was another that was disguised as a Scarlet Spires and aided in the assassination somehow? Major stretch, I know, but maybe it leads someone with a better mind at crackpot theories down a better path...
-why bring back just one Cishaurim? What could that mean?
-why have amnesia be part of said Cishaurim's personna?
-does said Cish actually have amnesia?
-does Fanayal know who Meppa is even if Meppa does not?
-does Malo's observation on the "beauty" of the "work without the mark" mean anything about how it compares to the ugly bruise of other sorcery?
-did the hints at the end of TTT that the Cish were stronger than anyone realized mean anything about how strong Meppa is? Does amnesia potentially help Meppa recall the God's voice even better? Kellhus said to Akka in TTT that whether the Cish know it or not, their blinding helps them better recall. Would amnesia help even more?
-If Meppa isn't Moe, is he Moe's experiment or plan B somehow?
-Another fun observation is that it seems that the Cish are impacted differently by Chorae than other sorcerers...everyone else salts...they same to burn away like a tissue was set alight. I don't know what that means, but it seems like a potential clue to...something.
Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.
Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"Makes sense. From what we know it is reasonable to conclude that he knows that his Psûkhe-fu will be weak, due to his stunted emotional life.
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.
But perhaps my memory is playing games on me and she actually said something about Kellhus' mark...
Side Questions: Is it ever said either way if Aporetic sorcerers can make cants and such or is it strictly an artificer type of magic?
Side Questions: Is it ever said either way if Aporetic sorcerers can make cants and such or is it strictly an artificer type of magic?
Hey everyone, I moved the missing comments to Sorcery (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.0) in Misc. Chatter. Also, combined the Sorcery thread from The White-Luck Warrior. There's still a couple errant threads around.
Otherwise, try and stay on the topic of the thread. That's why there's an entire forum here. Search function also works fairly well.
If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?
Hey everyone, I moved the missing comments to Sorcery (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.0) in Misc. Chatter. Also, combined the Sorcery thread from The White-Luck Warrior. There's still a couple errant threads around.
Otherwise, try and stay on the topic of the thread. That's why there's an entire forum here. Search function also works fairly well.
To be fair, I was covering my hypotheses on sorcery in order to provide fodder for how Khellus might apply changes to extend his limits.
But who really reads my half page rambles anyway?
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board.It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.
Just speaking for myself, but it can be pretty damn hard to find specific things in those Westeros threads. They're big, often move relatively fast, and there's a new one probably every month or so (and they've been going for years). On top of that, the Cish discussions are spread fairly wide (and randomly) across the threads. I'm not sure if there's a search function for threads themselves though, that might help.
Basic calculus equation, gnosis should be all over that, relatively simple.If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?
"So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day..."
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor. Something hollow and fibrous. A skull?"
I wondered about this passage for a long time. It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment. He could have kicked something in the dark at any time. Why then? Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions? I don't know, but it still nags me.
“But you were Dûnyain, and though our brothers know nothing of the arcane, our understanding of the mundane is without peer. You realized that these things weren’t sorcerous artifacts, that they were engines of the flesh. But you couldn’t convince the others, who sought to instruct the Scarlet Spires on the perilous course they had taken. There must be consequences. So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day …”
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor. Something hollow and fibrous. A skull?
“But you,” he continued without hesitation, “kept the creatures, and over years of torment you eventually broke them down. You learned of Golgotterath, her ramparts heaped about the horns of an ancient derelict, a vessel fallen from the void in the days when Nonmen yet ruled Eärwa; of the Inchoroi and the great war they waged against long-dead Nonmen Kings. You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn. You learned how this wicked cabal broke the glamour about Golgotterath, and made its horrors their own …
“You learned of the Consult.”
“These words you speak,” Moënghus said from the black, “‘wicked,’ ‘corrupted,’ ‘perverted’ … why would you use them when you know they are nothing more than mechanisms of control?”
“The Second Apocalypse,” Moënghus said simply.
“Only you knew their secret. Only you could detect their spies.”
“They have to be stopped,” Moënghus replied. “Destroyed.”
Was the dramatic shift in that quoted text? Because I don't see it.Quote“The Second Apocalypse,” Moënghus said simply.
“Only you knew their secret. Only you could detect their spies.”
“They have to be stopped,” Moënghus replied. “Destroyed.”
Interesting that Moenghus did a massive shift from, "don't judge the Consult with your world-born tainted biases," to agreeing with the perspective he just condemned. Utterly classic dunyain manipulation process.
ah, I see you are one of the conditioned... ;)Help me see. I don't want to be deceived any more.
If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?
Quote"So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day..."
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor. Something hollow and fibrous. A skull?"
I wondered about this passage for a long time. It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment. He could have kicked something in the dark at any time. Why then? Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions? I don't know, but it still nags me.
I rather doubt the Consult could make head nor tail of the Psukhe with their truncated emotional spectrum. They are completely ignorant of empathy.
I rather doubt the Consult could make head nor tail of the Psukhe with their truncated emotional spectrum. They are completely ignorant of empathy.
Not so sure. Its been some time since I have read Kellhus encounter with the glamor-consult-esmi thing, but emotion seems to be a primary motivator for them. Or, at least, the the worldly sensations of pleasure and pain. I think they could make a psukari if they had a template of some kind to work off of.
Which, by extention (and to keep with the theme of the thread), may mean that Kellhus could possibly be able to engineer a psukari given his father's failures. Has anyone yet guessed that Meppa was placed by Kellhus? Well I have now. Mark it down.
Yep, Meppa is a mind-wiped Iyokus, clearly. How to escape the damnation of the Daimos? Remove all experiential memories. =D
Wilshire - Any theories on why Kellhus would be behind Meppa? That's the hangup for me. I don't know what the goal would be.
We don't have a ton of evidence, but wouldn't the Cishaurim be feared and hated in the New Empire?
I've suggested that Kellhus has control of one of the Cults partaking in rebellion. Say, Gilgaol. But Meppa is fun to think of too.
I've suggested that Kellhus has control of one of the Cults partaking in rebellion. Say, Gilgaol.
Wilshire - Any theories on why Kellhus would be behind Meppa? That's the hangup for me. I don't know what the goal would be.
We don't have a ton of evidence, but wouldn't the Cishaurim be feared and hated in the New Empire?
Well my personal favorite crackpot is that Meppa is Moenghus' doing, but since you asked lets see...
Why would Kellhus be behind Meppa?
Kellhus obviously knew, or knew there was a good chance, that the empire was going to fall when he left. He took pretty much every able bodied man to the North, leaving a huge power vacuum. He was never able to catch Fanyal, so he was likely so swoop in when the powers that be were all elsewhere. We know that Kellhus can erase memories via the Whelming, maybe he doesn't so much erase them, but covers them up so that they are inaccessible to their owner.
So given all of that, Kellhus knew that Fanyal would leap at the opportunity to have a powerful ally - especially one that was a symbol of his peoples' former glory. Kellhus figured out how to teach the water-baring technique to one of his blind disciples (or blinded one of them and then taught them, whatever). He then erased this person's memories, and sent them off to find his enemies.
After Meppa, almost single-handily, takes over the empire, Kellhus can come back and give him his memories back (or maybe some trigger was placed in his mind so that once something specific happens his memories flood back). At the end of the day, only the face of the ruler changed,. Fanayal will be ousted as the face of destruction, but Meppa will be spared since he was basically under Kellhus' orders.
Uh so why go through all this? Kellhus couldn't find or stop the bandit for whatever reason. Maybe he wants him to take over his empire while he is away. Could be that he wanted to know if he was being helped by one of the Hundred, so he couldn't send a regular spy. He needed someone who looked like an enemy to the Aspect-Emperor, even to 'divine' scrutiny. What better person then the last scion of a cult he personally destroyed? To all the world and the Outside Meppa looks normal, but to Kellhus he is simply another set of 'eyes'.
Also, Kellhus is pretty sure he killed all the Cish, but how sure is he? Meppa could be a beacon for any wayward Psukari, and once they are all gathered, they can all be destroyed.
...
Any questions? lol.
I like that theory Wilshire, I think that it's likely hitting on a lot of truth, particularly Kellhus using Meppa as a pawn (even if he didn't personally train/condition him, I do think that he certainly knew what was going to happen to some degree, I.E. it's all part of the plan).
One thing I'm unclear on: where in the text does it say that Whelming can erase memories? Just curious, I'm actually pretty vague on the whole Whelming thing in general. Is there a good section to read that details it?
Is it ever mentioned that kellhus taught somebody the psuke?
Not sure how neuropuncture or whelming would help. I'm not convinced that brain/memory manipulation would help the wield of the Psuke in any way, especial if "being a dunyain is really no disadvantage", since the difference is mostly in the mind to begin with.