The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Almanac: TAE Edition => Topic started by: H on March 10, 2016, 11:58:01 am

Title: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 10, 2016, 11:58:01 am
Chapter 4:

Quote
But more and more the different eye seems to open, one that has perplexed her for many years—that frightens her like an unwanted yen for perversion.

So, later Akka will tell her that the Judging Eye involves pregnant women, yet, here we are told how Mimara has had it for years.

Quote
"He says it himself, Every life is a cipher..." Another deep inhalation. "A riddle."

"And you think Seswatha's life is such."

"I know it is."

Quote
Mandate Schoolmen claim to relive Seswatha's life, but this is only partially true. In fact, we dream only portions, the long trauma of the First Apocalypse. All we dream is the spectacle. 'Seswatha,' the old Mandate joke goes, 'does not shit.' The banalities—the substance of his life—is missing... The truth of his life is missing."

I had mentioned before, I do think the Dreams are becoming more truthful.  However, I still think that the truth is intertwined with the propaganda of the usual Dreams.

Quote
His hatred of Kellhus she finds understandable, though she herself bears no grudge against her stepfather. She barely knows the Aspect-Emperor, and those rare times she found herself alone with him on the Andiamine Heights—twice—he seemed at once radiant and tragic, perhaps the most immediate and obvious soul she had ever encountered.

I think once upon a time, there was speculation that Kellhus might be the father of Mimara's child.  This quote certainly seems to refute that well.

Quote
Bundling a blanket about her nakedness, she crawls to the dim bed of coals, where she sits, rocking herself between clutched arms and rough folds, trying to squeeze away the memory of skidding skin, the wheezing of old man exertions.

...

"We have made our first mistake together," he says, as though it were something significant. "We will not make it again."

I think I had sort of overlooked this the first time I had read it.  I think there is little doubt that Akka is Mimara's child's father.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 11, 2016, 01:17:33 pm
Chapter 5:

Quote
An image of her own sister came to Nannaferi, her childhood twin, the one who did not survive the pox.

Again, as has been mentioned before, twins (like blindness) have some meta-physical deeper meaning in Earwa.

Quote
Only in his third summer, when Hagitatas, with doddering yet implacable patience, made a litany of the difference between beast, man, and god, was Kelmomas able to overcome the tumult that was his brother. "Beasts move," the old physician would rasp. "Men reflect. Gods make real." Over and over. "Beasts move. Men reflect. Gods make real. Beasts move..." Perhaps it was simply the repetition. Perhaps it was the palsied tone, the way his breath undid the substance of his words, allowing them to soak into the between places, the gem-cutting lines. "Beasts move..." Over and over, until finally Kelmomas simply turned to him and said, "Men reflect."

A blink, and what was one had become two.

This theory has been presented in the past and i can't help but feel that the process of separating the twins is what "invited" a god into the equation.  Sammy got the feelings and lost his intellect, Kel got the intellect and the voice of a god as surrogate feelings.

Quote
It had been this way ever since Hagitatas had taught him the difference between beast, man, and god—ever since he first had looked away from his brother's face.

Samarmas is the beast.  Kelmomas is the man.  And the God, well, we don't know exactly who.

Quote
You are, the secret voice said, her only love remaining.

So, a major question I want to keep my eye on with this reread is the motive of the voice, to try to figure which god it might be.  It seems to be moving against Esmenent, but is not friendly to Yatwer.  Ajokli seems probable, but we'll see.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on March 11, 2016, 07:12:56 pm
I hadn't picked up on that before, but yeah, the ritual used to separate them seems to point verrrry directly at the theory that one of the Hundred accompanies Kelmomas - specifically, Ajokli, given that Bakker has been pretty clear associating his characters with their respective gods since the beginning of TSA and everything indicates the Trickster would be Kel's patron. Maybe what the Voice says in your last quote alludes to Ajokli's purpose in possessing the boy: another cruel joke for life to play on Esmenet, taking away the last thing she loves. I figure this will somehow relate to Esmenet seeing her beloved son for what he really is.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 14, 2016, 11:53:19 am
I hadn't picked up on that before, but yeah, the ritual used to separate them seems to point verrrry directly at the theory that one of the Hundred accompanies Kelmomas - specifically, Ajokli, given that Bakker has been pretty clear associating his characters with their respective gods since the beginning of TSA and everything indicates the Trickster would be Kel's patron. Maybe what the Voice says in your last quote alludes to Ajokli's purpose in possessing the boy: another cruel joke for life to play on Esmenet, taking away the last thing she loves. I figure this will somehow relate to Esmenet seeing her beloved son for what he really is.

Indeed, I think it is mostly to get  at Esmenet, but not so simply to just kill her.  Which is interesting, in and of itself.  Perhaps though, I am thinking  too shallow, perhaps it is more to get at Kellhus?  If it was solely about Esmenet, there have been plenty of opportunities to get to her that were never taken.

Chapter 6:

Quote
Then the Captain said, "What lies in Sauglish?"

The words fairly knocked the blood out of Sarl's ruddy face. Perhaps there were consequences for misreading the Captain's interest. Perhaps the man had simply wandered too far out on a drunken limb. For some reason, Achamian had the impression that Lord Kosoter's voice always had this effect.

So, I was buying the "Sarl as the hooded traveler" in the prologue, but after this and the rest of the scene, I'm really not so sure.  I even have some doubt that Sarl is a skin-spy here at this point.  Then again, was he sent there originally just to watch Cleric?  Now, it is flustered by this unexpected complication?

Quote
The hood bowed to the tabletop. "I can no longer remember. I have known Ishterebinth, I think... But it was not called such then."

Hmmm, Ishterebinth having another name?  What does that even mean?

Quote
"You're a learned man," Sarl added, speaking through strings of phlegm. An uncommon intensity had fixed his rodent features—as if some life-or-death opportunity were on the verge of slipping from his grasp. "Tell me, what do you think of the concept of coincidence? Do you think things happen for reasons?"

Perhaps he is a skin-spy and he is now realizing why he was actually sent to watch Cleric?

Quote
"I remember..." the blackness wrapped by the cowl said. "I remember the slaughter of..."

A peculiar sound, like a sob thumbed into the shape of a cackle.

"Of children."

"A man," the Captain grimly noted, "has got to remember."

I wonder what they refers to?  The Womb-Plague?  The Sack of Sauglish, as Akka dreams of it?

Quote
The same eye-pinching grin. "I've been with the Captain since the beginning," he cackled. "From before the Imperial Bounty, in the wars against the Orthodox. I've seen him stand untouched in a hail of arrows, while I cringed behind my shield. I was at his side on the walls of Meigeiri, when the fucking Longbeards fell over themselves trying to flee from his blood-maddened gaze. I was there, after the battle of Em'famir. With these two ears I heard the Aspect-Emperor—the Aspect-Emperor!—name him Ironsoul!"

So, is this a lie then?  He doesn't say it will Kosoter around, but why make it up at all then?

Quote
"You, Seswatha," the High-King said, returning his gaze to the plate. "You are the only one. The only one I trust."

Achamian thought of his Queen, her buttocks against his hips, her calves hooked hot and hungry about his waist.

The High-King moved a stone, a move that Seswatha had not foreseen, and the rules changed in the most disastrous way possible. What had been opportunity found itself twisted inside out, stamped into something as closed and as occluded as the future.

Achamian was almost relieved...

"I have built a place... a refuge..." Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. "A place where my line can outlive me."

Ishuäl...

What does it mean that Akka is "almost relieved?"  Glad that Celmomas had a plan, that he had Ishuäl?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 14, 2016, 12:11:19 pm
H., good stuff. Only thing is I don't believe Sarl was the skin-spy. The last we see Sarl,  Akka and Mimara leave him at Sauglish and he'sa cackling,  raving madman at that point. Unless,  I'm remembering wrong,  the skin-spy was Soma.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 14, 2016, 12:17:44 pm
H., good stuff. Only thing is I don't believe Sarl was the skin-spy. The last we see Sarl,  Akka and Mimara leave him at Sauglish and he'sa cackling,  raving madman at that point. Unless,  I'm remembering wrong,  the skin-spy was Soma.

Oh, yeah, duh.  Wow, it is very, very, Monday.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 14, 2016, 02:27:16 pm
Chapter 4

Quote
That’s what they say,” Achamian replies, savouring his smoke. “That the Dreams are a goad to action, a call to arms. That by suffering the First Apocalypse over and over, we had no choice but to war against the possibility of the Second.”“You think otherwise?” A shadow falls across his face. “I think that your adoptive father, our glorious, all-conquering Aspect-Emperor, is right.” The hatred is plain in his voice. “Kellhus?” she asks. An old man shrug—an ancient gesture hung on failing bones. “He says it himself, Every life is a cipher …” Another deep inhalation. “A riddle.”“And you think Seswatha’s life is such.”“I know it is. "

So, here we find proof(in my eyes at least) that indeed Seswatha is leading Akka to a destination. Its just that its a riddled,  a cipher that Akka must puzzle out to find the destination. I've always believed that the dreams come from Seswatha,  not Kellhus.

Quote
I’m not even sure when it began happening, let alone why,” he said, pausing to draw a palsied breath. “The Dreams began to change … in strange, little ways at first. Mandate Schoolmen claim to relive Seswatha’s life, but this is only partially true. In fact, we dream only portions, the long trauma of the First Apocalypse. All we dream is the spectacle. ‘Seswatha,’ the old Mandate joke goes, ‘does not shit.’ The banalities—the substance of his life—is missing … The truth of his life is missing."

Yet,  now Akka is experiencing the ordinary moments in the life of Seswatha. Just another piece of evidence that points to Seswatha, not Kellhus.

Quote
I have no idea. Perhaps it’s the Whore—fucking Fate. Perhaps it’s a happy consequence of my madness—for one cannot endure what I’ve endured day and night without going a little mad, I assure you.” He made her laugh by blinking his eyes and jerking his head in caricature. “Perhaps, by ceasing to live my own life, I’d began living his. Perhaps some dim memory, some spark of Seswatha's soul is reaching out to me...perhaps."

Yet more proof that its Seswatha and not Kellhus.

Quote
How could he be so oblivious? The Dûnyain was her father! The Dûnyain.

This reminded me of Cnaüir. Maybe, just maybe a bit of him lives on through Akka. In hating all things Dunyain.

Quote
When you stood before him!” he roared. “When you knelt in his presence , did you feel it? Hollow and immovable, as if you were at once smoke and yet possessed the bones of the world? Truth? Did you feel Truth?”“Yes!” she cried. “Everyone does! Everyone! He’s the Aspect-Emperor! He’s the Saviour. He’s come to save us! Come to save the Sons of Men!” Achamian stared at her aghast, his own vehemence ringing in his ears. Of course she was a believer. “He sent you. "

While I don't believe Kellhus to be sending the Dreams, I do believe he has a good idea at what is a stake. Clearly, he sent Mimara and also the traveller, whoever that might be. He knows Akka and Mimara need each other and have an important role to play in the events.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 14, 2016, 05:41:24 pm
While I don't believe Kellhus to be sending the Dreams, I do believe he has a good idea at what is a stake. Clearly, he sent Mimara and also the traveller, whoever that might be. He knows Akka and Mimara need each other and have an important role to play in the events.

Yeah, I'm still buying that Seswatha is the source of the changed Dreams.  I still thing we are only getting "half-truths" though.  Truths still mixed with the "standard issue" propaganda of the usual Dreams.


To go back to where I lost track of my own thoughs this morning, I was trying to follow the line to who the mysterious traveller is in the prologue.  The idea that it was Sarl stuck with me, but in retrospect now, I don't think he is lying when he says how he had been with Kosoter since the begining.  And his shock at Kosoter taking Akka's request seriously seemed genuine to me.

So, thinking about it, I can imagine one of two "forces" the traveler represents, either Kellhus or the Consult.  Since we already know who the Consult agent actually is, I don't really think that is the direction to go.  I would tend to think that the Skin-Eaters were placed because Kellhus knew that Akka and Mimara would need an escort.  This theory still points to the Skin-Eaters being placed by Kellhus, because he knew that Akka and Mimara would go there looking for someone to take them to Sauglish.

As we learn much later, seemingly the fact that the Consult had an agent near Mimara was something of an accident.  So, that means they probably didn't place them Skin-Eaters there at all.  It all points to Kellhus having set the meeting up really.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 14, 2016, 08:06:48 pm
As we learn much later, seemingly the fact that the Consult had an agent near Mimara was something of an accident.  So, that means they probably didn't place them Skin-Eaters there at all.  It all points to Kellhus having set the meeting up really.

Yea,  this is my line of thinking, also. It could even go back to TTT when Kellhus tells Akka he will kneel the next time they meet. Your post made me think of this. Wonder if during that scene Kellhus is going through the Probability Trance and forsee that, that will be so. One problem with that that I have, is Mimara. We find out they didn't go looking for her til after Inrilaitis(I believe), but Kellhus could've seen that too, I guess. Furthermore,  going back to my quote about Kellhus sending Mimara,  it makes further sense. Akka thanks the Whore for sending Mimara and prompting his trip to Marrow because the Ordeal is on the March. I'd speculate that this is the exact time Kellhus needs Akka to get off his rump and take Mimara wherever they need to go. So, not the Whore, Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on March 14, 2016, 09:16:47 pm
Quote
Furthermore,  going back to my quote about Kellhus sending Mimara,  it makes further sense. Akka thanks the Whore for sending Mimara and prompting his trip to Marrow because the Ordeal is on the March. I'd speculate that this is the exact time Kellhus needs Akka to get off his rump and take Mimara wherever they need to go. So, not the Whore, Kellhus.
I think it's probably worth noting here that it is in fact Kelmomas which ultimately pushes Mimara to leave the Andiamine Heights. Little Kel makes an effort to avoid papa Kel too because the latter can sound the former. Kelmomas--whether you want to attribute it to the Voice or intellectual intuition--seems very aware of his father's capabilities, so I have a bit of a hard time reconciling that Kellhus is operating at several removes and through his youngest son to put Akka in the right place at the right time. But then again it's so hard to determine to what extent Kellhus is orchestrating things.

But since I put forth a haphazard theory on a god using Kelmomas, I'm going to just throw this behind it too. It does raise the question whether there is dissension among the gods and ultimately relies on some of them working in conjunction. Perhaps the gods favour--in a direct sense--or even pick avatars, if you will: Akka being one such example for Fate, perhaps Cnaiur for War (though Gilgaol features quite prominently in PoN). I might just be rambling now though, so dissect and undermine
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 14, 2016, 09:59:42 pm
Camlost, quit pissing in my Cheerios, lol! I did indeed forget about Kel. As to your other point, Sorweel/Yatwer, Akka/Anagke, Kel/Ajokli, Cnaüir/Gilgoal, is there any other we are forgetting.

Back to Kel, what if Kel just thinks he pushed Mimara away? I can't remember but Mimara doesn't say anything of the sort, does she? 
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on March 14, 2016, 11:05:16 pm
Maybe the Voice is shielding Kelmomas from Kellhus somehow and the boy hasn't realized it yet. However, I doubt it - to be honest, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Kellhus isn't completely aware of Kelmomas. I would say one of the highly probable alternative explanations, if the Voice proves not to be Ajokli, is that it is Kellhus himself. Even so, Kellhus seems to feel a dim (but nonetheless real) affection for Esmenet and I doubt he would maneuver to almost explicitly destroy her. I think it's possible that Kelmomas, and maybe Akka himself, are other strokes against Kellhus by the Hundred. Maybe Sorweel is a feint.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on March 15, 2016, 01:43:19 am
Quote
Camlost, quit pissing in my Cheerios, lol! I did indeed forget about Kel. As to your other point, Sorweel/Yatwer, Akka/Anagke, Kel/Ajokli, Cnaüir/Gilgoal, is there any other we are forgetting
Don't fret, I brought Fruit Loops  :D

I tried to mark as many of the Hundred while reading PoN. I only noticed six or seven, the only other coming to mind being Momas.

Quote
I think it's possible that Kelmomas, and maybe Akka himself, are other strokes against Kellhus by the Hundred. Maybe Sorweel is a feint.
This begs the question who among the Hundred are for or against Kellhus. Also, perhaps loosely related, might some have them been already working towards whatever their ends may be previous to TAE.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 15, 2016, 11:14:19 am
There is, of course, the prospect of Akka actually being right, that Anagkë, through Kel, actually did deliver Mimara to him.

A bit unlikely, but possible.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 16, 2016, 10:34:10 pm
Chapter 6

Quote
Oh, yes, he’s mortal, to be sure. He’s a man like other men, as many an unfortunate peach has discovered, believe you me. But something watches him, and more important, something watches through him.

So, there's been plenty of speculation on the Captain. Wether he is a wraith, Ciphrang or what have you. Clearly he is human, but something watches through him. Is he an avatar of a God, or is Kellhus able to watch through him?


Quote
I have built a place … a refuge …” Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. “A place where my line can outlive me. Ishual....

So, I've always speculated that Ishual was a Nonmen mansion that Celmommas found and made into a refuge. What if Celmommas worked with the Nonmen to build this place, unbeknownst to Seswatha?

Quote
The truth of men lay in their origins. He knew this as only a Mandate Schoolman could. Anasûrimbor Kellhus had not come to the Three Seas by accident. He had not found his half-brother waiting for him as Shriah of the Thousand Temples by accident. He had not conquered the known world by accident.

Just more proof, to me, that the Dunyain are part of something more. Its more than just Moe, there was a plan and Kellhus is the culmination of the plan. If anything, this reread has reinforced my belief that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 17, 2016, 10:38:59 am
Quote
I have built a place … a refuge …” Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. “A place where my line can outlive me. Ishual....

So, I've always speculated that Ishual was a Nonmen mansion that Celmommas found and made into a refuge. What if Celmommas worked with the Nonmen to build this place, unbeknownst to Seswatha?

I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

Quote
The truth of men lay in their origins. He knew this as only a Mandate Schoolman could. Anasûrimbor Kellhus had not come to the Three Seas by accident. He had not found his half-brother waiting for him as Shriah of the Thousand Temples by accident. He had not conquered the known world by accident.

Just more proof, to me, that the Dunyain are part of something more. Its more than just Moe, there was a plan and Kellhus is the culmination of the plan. If anything, this reread has reinforced my belief that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain.

Yeah, I've been thinking that way fora good while now too.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 17, 2016, 04:42:13 pm
Quote
I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

That's a great point. But, what if the Thousand Thousand Halls is the old Nonman mansion? And, the fortification on top is what Celmommas built? That would make sense, no?

Quote
Yeah, I've been thinking that way fora good while now too.

Yea, and Bakker said that this story isa metaphysical "who done it" that we won't necessarily get the answer to, specifically. I think the answer is Seswatha.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 17, 2016, 04:46:17 pm
Quote
I, opf course, agree about the Nonman origins of Ishual.  I still don't think that Celmomas could have anythng to do with it's actually building though.  It would have taken years upon years to cut the Thousand-Thousand Halls out, no way it was made in the short time between Seswatha warning Celmomas and him deciding to heed it.  I just can't buy that.

That's a great point. But, what if the Thousand Thousand Halls is the old Nonman mansion? And, the fortification on top is what Celmommas built? That would make sense, no?

In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 17, 2016, 04:50:16 pm
Quote
In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...

A great idea just struck me, what if those runes are Apropos? That would make sense as to why it was abandoned. Nonmen outlaw aporetic sorcery and Ishual is forgotten.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 17, 2016, 05:05:25 pm
Quote
In theory, yes and I actually pondered that as I was writing my response.  What makes me doubt that though is that the walls were covered in "sorcerous runes."  Who would have carved them for Celmomas?  I guess it could have been Nonmen helping him build it, but I'm still thinking its more probable that the place was already there and simply forgotten, as Nonmen are wont to do...

I great idea just struck me, what if those runes are Apropos? That would make sense as to why it was abandoned. Nonmen outlaw aporetic sorcery and Ishual is forgotten.

I had thought about this as well, that perhaps the runes were a part of what was to keep it hidden.  Thing is, if it was Aporetic, would it be seen (felt) like a Chorae?  Then again, we know so little of the Aporos, perhaps not.

You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 17, 2016, 05:28:58 pm
Quote
You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.

Hah, yea there isn't much that one can think up that is original.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 17, 2016, 05:51:22 pm
Quote
You could be right though, that it was a Aporetic fortress, left abandoned when they were outlawed as well.  I think someone proposed that it was outlaw Nonmen before too.

Hah, yea there isn't much that one can think up that is original.

Yeah, you have to go pretty far afield to get where no one has ever gone.

Chances are that is where the real answers would be though...
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 21, 2016, 03:36:22 pm
I'm on board with Ishual at least partly being of Nonman manufacture. From Kellhus' first time in a mansion:

Quote
The halls were not human.
 The drafts came to him, murmuring their secrets. His soul reached out, calculating probabilities, transforming inferences into space. About him, the galleries scrawled on and on into the immured blackness.
 So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.

I had forgotten how sharp Sarl was. I like the theory of him being the Traveler or a Dunyain but I take it he's being honest after he goes mad. Still, it's strange that he would be so old, not a veteran of the first holy war, yet fight at Kosoter's side throughout the Unification. What was he doing before Kellhus' ascendancy?

I also found it strange that the Empire had "replaced" one of the priestesses with a Swayali. They have their own arcane version of skin spies now?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on March 22, 2016, 03:14:19 pm
I'm on board with Ishual at least partly being of Nonman manufacture. From Kellhus' first time in a mansion:

Quote
The halls were not human.
 The drafts came to him, murmuring their secrets. His soul reached out, calculating probabilities, transforming inferences into space. About him, the galleries scrawled on and on into the immured blackness.
 So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.

I also found it strange that the Empire had "replaced" one of the priestesses with a Swayali. They have their own arcane version of skin spies now?

The text openly insinuates that Ishual is of Nonman origin: its name is derived from Ihrimsu, a Nonman languge, and Bolivar has quoted the scene where Kellhus openly remarks on the similarities between a mansion and the Thousand Thousand Halls. At some point we heard about Nonmen hiding in Cil'Aujas after it was claimed by men; would it be so remarkable for the Dunyain to do the same? At the end of TWLW, Achamian and Mimara come across the ruined fortress, but many times now we've seen it stated that the most important structure in Ishual is beneath its surface. (To speculate on the possible new angles that this might raise)

As far as the Empire replacing a priestess with a Swayali, I think it's more to highlight the convenience a sorceress might have while infiltrating a matriarchal cult. Though it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Kellhus has expanded greatly upon Moe's research.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 23, 2016, 05:11:55 pm
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 23, 2016, 05:58:37 pm
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
One idea I like is that the goal of the Dunyain breeding program is to reverse engineer the Cunoroi genome. They are clearly becoming a new species, as they have reached the point where their mates are having problems bringing pregnancy to term.

At Dagliash, Seswatha insists (via Nautzera in TTT) "there must be some other way," for Mekeritrig to cope with his Erraticism. Why not the prospect of wives and children? It would also explain how Seswatha escaped Dagliash, if he was freed in exchange for the location at Ishual and an alternative for the Nonmen. It would also explain where all the Dunyain women are.

Kind of an out there theory and I'm sure it will be among the first debunked in The Great Ordeal
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 23, 2016, 06:17:04 pm
I think that what's so important about Ishual being of Nonman origin is how much Nonman blood Kellhus actually has. Someone at Westeros (HelloWorld, I believe), suggested that Celmommas had a secret pact with the Nonmen (Nil'giccas in particular). I frowned upon the idea at first, now i can see it as a real possibility. I don't think that Kellhus would have much Nonman blood if all that he had was from a ancestor 2000 years ago. So it seems to point that the Dunyain are getting Nonman traits from somewhere. Maybe a Nonman matriarch?
One idea I like is that the goal of the Dunyain breeding program is to reverse engineer the Cunoroi genome. They are clearly becoming a new species, as they have reached the point where their mates are having problems bringing pregnancy to term.

At Dagliash, Seswatha insists (via Nautzera in TTT) "there must be some other way," for Mekeritrig to cope with his Erraticism. Why not the prospect of wives and children? It would also explain how Seswatha escaped Dagliash, if he was freed in exchange for the location at Ishual and an alternative for the Nonmen. It would also explain where all the Dunyain women are.

Well, I've said before that the Dunyain probably thought they were breeding toward the maximum human potential.  In reality, they were breeding Human-Nonman hybrids.  This is why their abilities are so far beyond human and yet not subject to the limits of the Nonman flaws as well.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 06:06:33 pm
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 06:09:58 pm
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?


Well if it's Ajokli, like I believe, he is the trickster. Like playing g tricks, and tricking Kel into thinking it's Sammy.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 06:33:12 pm
I'm confused as to why everyone is questioning where Kelmomas's "voice" is coming from. I admit, mine is a skeptical heart, but when Kel kills Samarmas, the voice says "why did you wait so long..." to kill me. The voice, to me, is obviously Samarmas's intellect, which was trapped in Kel's head when their souls were sundered by the healer slave.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the Swayali who Pstama "unmasked" in the temple was an anagogic witch and not gnostic?


Well if it's Ajokli, like I believe, he is the trickster. Like playing g tricks, and tricking Kel into thinking it's Sammy.

If that's the case, and it's not Samarmas's intellect, why did Kel's identical twin turn out to be an idiot?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 06:38:58 pm
That was explained when they was separated, iirc. And if the voice does not sound like one of a n idiot, no? I've thought Sammy  for the longest also,it's just too simple. The text certainly make you think it's Sammy. But why would a dim-wit want to kill people and such? Its hard to explain what I mean here. Sammy's nature does not match up to that of the Voice.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 04, 2016, 07:24:34 pm
If that's the case, and it's not Samarmas's intellect, why did Kel's identical twin turn out to be an idiot?

When they were split, it was into "Beast, Man, and God."

Sammy got the beast end of the stick.  Where did his intellect go?  For all we know, he never had one, him and Kel could have shared one, which would explain why part of why they were so inseparable before the ritual did whatever it did to split them.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 07:46:05 pm
That was explained when they was separated, iirc. And if the voice does not sound like one of a n idiot, no? I've thought Sammy  for the longest also,it's just too simple. The text certainly make you think it's Sammy. But why would a dim-wit want to kill people and such? Its hard to explain what I mean here. Sammy's nature does not match up to that of the Voice.

I don't think I am being clear. The voice in Kel's head does not sound like a dummy, because the part of Sammy's soul/intellect/whatever that would have given him the brilliance of a half Dunyain, was ripped out of him when the twins were separated. Their souls/intellects/whatevers were joined together, the healer slave "healed" them, but in so doing broke them apart like a wishbone. Kell walked away with the bigger piece of the wishbone.
The fact that the voice doesn't sound like a dim-whit lends credence to my argument.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 07:53:23 pm
Kellhus mentions to Serwe that Dunyain have two souls or two sets of eyes. Well Serwe says to Sorweel that her father told her. In case anyone thinks there is a passage with Serwe and Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on April 04, 2016, 07:53:34 pm
But Sammy is not a mute without any intellect. He is just lacking in that department. He understands what's going on around him, can make choices for his self, shows emotion. You could very well be right. I just seem to think Kel is being used by someone (a God, Ajokli IMHO). Therefore, what in the world would Sammy be using him for? The Voice has an agenda, whatever that may be. What would be Sammy's agenda, and what makes you think he would have one? I agree with H, that when the healer was doing his thing, it gave an opportunity for an entity to slide in, so to say.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 04, 2016, 09:17:41 pm
But Sammy is not a mute without any intellect. He is just lacking in that department. He understands what's going on around him, can make choices for his self, shows emotion. You could very well be right. I just seem to think Kel is being used by someone (a God, Ajokli IMHO). Therefore, what in the world would Sammy be using him for? The Voice has an agenda, whatever that may be. What would be Sammy's agenda, and what makes you think he would have one? I agree with H, that when the healer was doing his thing, it gave an opportunity for an entity to slide in, so to say.

But the agenda in the voice doesn't seem to be that different from Kel's own agenda. The voice never convinces him to do something he doesn't want to do. It reads much more like two brothers talking to each other. My opinion :)
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 02:18:47 pm
Just a quck thought, as not started full re-read yet just picking it up and reading a bit at random in the bath.

However i noticed  the Witch in TJE (the one masquerading as a devotee of Yawter) is using analagoic sorcery. Not Gnostic like the Compact. Judging by the spell she casts which is weird.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 05, 2016, 02:41:03 pm
Just a quck thought, as not started full re-read yet just picking it up and reading a bit at random in the bath.

However i noticed  the Witch in TJE (the one masquerading as a devotee of Yawter) is using analagoic sorcery. Not Gnostic like the Compact. Judging by the spell she casts which is weird.

Yes, I mentioned that above. I definitely noticed that. It also describes her as improbably young, which would mean she's probably young enough to have joined after they got the gnosis (I'm assuming the Compact is a group of witches that Kellhus got together and said, start a school, and I'll give you the gnosis) so should be a gnostic witch and not an anagogic witch. So to be honest, I am going to assume this was a mistake in the writing.

Do you think there's some significance to it?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 05, 2016, 04:58:09 pm
Just a quck thought, as not started full re-read yet just picking it up and reading a bit at random in the bath.

However i noticed  the Witch in TJE (the one masquerading as a devotee of Yawter) is using analagoic sorcery. Not Gnostic like the Compact. Judging by the spell she casts which is weird.

Yes, I mentioned that above. I definitely noticed that. It also describes her as improbably young, which would mean she's probably young enough to have joined after they got the gnosis (I'm assuming the Compact is a group of witches that Kellhus got together and said, start a school, and I'll give you the gnosis) so should be a gnostic witch and not an anagogic witch. So to be honest, I am going to assume this was a mistake in the writing.

Do you think there's some significance to it?

Sorry for duplication. Just so often i read something and then forget any significant thoughts I may have had. So typed it out quick without checking.

Mistake is the most likely option (unfortunately)

Another faction working for Maith and his brothers(we hear about in WLW), as a bit later/earlier the Mother Superior mentions he has known about her for a long time.

Mistake most likely though :D
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on April 05, 2016, 10:54:39 pm
Doubt Bakker would make a mistake like this. This would be evidence that she's not one of the Swayal.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 06, 2016, 10:12:41 am
Doubt Bakker would make a mistake like this. This would be evidence that she's not one of the Swayal.

Yeah, I mean, we don't know if there are other witches besides the Swayal, presumably there are?  Risking a Gnostic sorcerer seems like a bad idea anyway.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 02:55:43 pm
Just a quck thought, as not started full re-read yet just picking it up and reading a bit at random in the bath.

However i noticed  the Witch in TJE (the one masquerading as a devotee of Yawter) is using analagoic sorcery. Not Gnostic like the Compact. Judging by the spell she casts which is weird.

Yes, I mentioned that above. I definitely noticed that. It also describes her as improbably young, which would mean she's probably young enough to have joined after they got the gnosis (I'm assuming the Compact is a group of witches that Kellhus got together and said, start a school, and I'll give you the gnosis) so should be a gnostic witch and not an anagogic witch. So to be honest, I am going to assume this was a mistake in the writing.

Do you think there's some significance to it?

Sorry for duplication. Just so often i read something and then forget any significant thoughts I may have had. So typed it out quick without checking.

Mistake is the most likely option (unfortunately)

Another faction working for Maith and his brothers(we hear about in WLW), as a bit later/earlier the Mother Superior mentions he has known about her for a long time.

Mistake most likely though :D

No worries at all! I am sure I've done the same. I'm glad someone else thought it was interesting.

Doubt Bakker would make a mistake like this. This would be evidence that she's not one of the Swayal.

Yeah, I mean, we don't know if there are other witches besides the Swayal, presumably there are?  Risking a Gnostic sorcerer seems like a bad idea anyway.

Authors make mistakes all they time. He's a man not a Dunyain. [Edit: For instance, we are told countless times that even getting close to a chorae will salt a Quya, but the captain (carrying a chorae) is constantly standing right next to Cleric muttering in his ear].

Why would they train one of the few as an anagogic witch? They are a limited resource, it would make sense to make them all as powerful as possible.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on April 06, 2016, 03:31:59 pm
Doubt Bakker would make a mistake like this. This would be evidence that she's not one of the Swayal.

Yeah, I mean, we don't know if there are other witches besides the Swayal, presumably there are?  Risking a Gnostic sorcerer seems like a bad idea anyway.

Authors make mistakes all they time. He's a man not a Dunyain. [Edit: For instance, we are told countless times that even getting close to a chorae will salt a Quya, but the captain (carrying a chorae) is constantly standing right next to Cleric muttering in his ear].

Why would they train one of the few as an anagogic witch? They are a limited resource, it would make sense to make them all as powerful as possible.

I didn't mean to imply he didn't make a mistake, just pointing out that there is a good deal we don't know.  While it could have just been an author accident, there could be explanations as to why someone would still be training with the Anagogis.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on May 06, 2016, 11:45:50 pm
lmao what a great quote, for all of us waiting for TGO:

pg102 US 1st edition hardcover
Mimara:
What reservoirs of determination would it take? To spend so long immersed in a task not only bereft of any tangible profit, but without any appreciable measure of progress - how much would it require? Year after year, wresting with the imperceptible, wringing hope out of smoke and half-memory. What depths of conviction? What kind of perseverance?
Certainly not any the sane possess.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 4-6 [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on May 07, 2016, 03:47:46 am
He must have smiled writing these words.