Miscellaneous Chatter > Philosophy & Science
Is there really a Determinism/Indeterminism Dichotomy?
TaoHorror:
I think "without reason" in this case meaning things "just happen" and impossible to discover/discern source - not reason as aim/drive/motivation. Atoms moving truly randomly is nonsensical as it's movement is the resolution of forces, so the other forces are the reason it's moving in the direction it currently does. I don't know much about indeterminism, but if it's more than there's a limit to what we can determine, beyond making source indeterminable due to our limitations as in "it just happens", then it's nonsense.
H:
Well, for me, I have a hard time imagining what comes between the chain of cause and effect. At the macro-level, I don't think there really is anything there. But there is the possibility of some "indeterminacy" at the quantum level, if I understand it correctly.
The question then is how much does quantum indeterminacy influence macro-level determincy? The answer can't really be zero, or a hundred, percent though so it must be some murky amount in-between.
sciborg2:
I don't think there is any reason for macro-level consistency, which I'd hold is different than determinism since we lack an explanation for why quantum level effects aren't seen across the macro-world. That's made worse by, if I understand the science, there are macro-level superpositions observed.
Regarding forces, it makes me think of something Feynman said in his lectures, that attempting to define "force" results in a circular reasoning. IIRC - don't have the books - the problem is we conjecture forces from measurement then say forces are what gave us the measurements.
I believe there seems to also be a new philosophical appreciation for the arbitrariness that must underlie physics, AFAICTell that is what Meillassoux means when he speaks of "Hyper Chaos"....also Hyper Chaos just sounds cool 8)
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: H on October 29, 2018, 12:30:15 pm ---Well, for me, I have a hard time imagining what comes between the chain of cause and effect. At the macro-level, I don't think there really is anything there. But there is the possibility of some "indeterminacy" at the quantum level, if I understand it correctly.
The question then is how much does quantum indeterminacy influence macro-level determincy? The answer can't really be zero, or a hundred, percent though so it must be some murky amount in-between.
--- End quote ---
I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
TaoHorror:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 06:42:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 29, 2018, 12:30:15 pm ---Well, for me, I have a hard time imagining what comes between the chain of cause and effect. At the macro-level, I don't think there really is anything there. But there is the possibility of some "indeterminacy" at the quantum level, if I understand it correctly.
The question then is how much does quantum indeterminacy influence macro-level determincy? The answer can't really be zero, or a hundred, percent though so it must be some murky amount in-between.
--- End quote ---
I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
--- End quote ---
TL, I love it, but I'm not as well versed in this science as you are - can you explain it in layman's terms so I can understand your example better?
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