The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Stip on July 30, 2017, 06:14:06 pm
-
so how much of the events of The Aspect Emperor are we comfortable attributing to Kellhus
Did he anticipate his posession?
Did he anticipate his death
Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
without some of these moments set up by Kellhus im not sure why he abandons the ordeal to rescue esmenet and kelmomas from mommen
[EDIT Madness: Title.]
-
1. No, i dont think he did, but i dont believe, after rereading, that Ajokli is the only one talking in those scenes. I agre with Walter, the bolded is Ajokli.
2. Yes, without a doubt. I surmise that he tricked Ajokli and the only way to do that was through death and "hiding" from him. Also, as Merch pointed out he had Akka come to the Ordeal to rescue Esme and there are other clues he knew he was going to die.
3. I think so, yes. Its all part of tricking Ajokli. He was never going to let Ajokli rule over a hell on Earth. He has come to believe in humanity. The clues in the text also confirm this. Calling him an abomination, goading Esme into releasing him. He knew.
4. Yes, as i said, i think Merchant provided evidence that Akka's journey was to ensure the safety of Esme.
5. No, i dont. But, there is a case to be made that he did. That he knew the Nonmen would break him and he would turn to the People. But, that is tin foil really, because Moe Jr. joining the People seemed to be purely happenstance.
6. Maybe? He knew Ajoklinwpuld be pissed and go looking for him, thats for sure.
7. Good question. I think he always knew. Sorweel was an enemy, which is why he sent him to the Niom. You ask why? The seeing hearth and Sorweel's conversations with Zsoronga.
8. One he loves Esme and doeant want to see her die from his actions. Two, the whole Kel is the No-God and part of his plan to trick the Trickster.
-
I would go yes on the first question and no on the rest. There is only so much that you can predict no matter how smart you are. Butterfly effect and all that. I think what Moe sr. was able to predict about the Prince of Nothing plot line is a good measure of what a Dunyain is capable of predicting or not.
I think he mostly abandoned the Great Ordeal because they were becoming impossible to control even by him. If he had staid it would either expose the limits of his power or his immorality. It's better to just leave and let Proyas take the blame for what happens. As for why he spend his free time to rescue Esmenet, he seems to have feelings for her. As much as Dunyain is able to at least. That's both what he claims, and what Maithanet already suspected. Also, the fact that he strings up Proyas in a way that doesn't kill him is evidence that he doesn't just act purely according to what is most efficient at this point.
-
Did he anticipate his posession?
Yes
Did he anticipate his death
Probably not, but he might've prepared for the eventuality.
Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
No.
Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
Probably.
Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
Probably.
Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
Probably not.
Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
No, unless you believe that Bakker is intentionally trying to mislead the reader.
without some of these moments set up by Kellhus im not sure why he abandons the ordeal to rescue esmenet and kelmomas from mommen
I don't know. He says something about Esmenet being his only darkness, only place he can hide etc.
-
i want that to be true, re: Esmet, but it is nearly impossible to trust anything he says - we can only infer from the consequences of actions. its part of what makes this story and that character so intriguing.
-
Right. This is the real challenge. Dunyain do not speak to communicate. Instead, their words only steer. So we cannot take anything he says for true, unless it is known by some other witness.
-
I think he mostly abandoned the Great Ordeal because they were becoming impossible to control even by him. If he had staid it would either expose the limits of his power or his immorality. It's better to just leave and let Proyas take the blame for what happens. As for why he spend his free time to rescue Esmenet, he seems to have feelings for her. As much as Dunyain is able to at least. That's both what he claims, and what Maithanet already suspected. Also, the fact that he strings up Proyas in a way that doesn't kill him is evidence that he doesn't just act purely according to what is most efficient at this point.
Yup. I like this.
Basically the same reason he abandons the Empire to Esmenet. Essentially, he tyrant-ed for a decade after a decade of war then left the fall of the Empire in her most capable hands. Kellhus tells Esmenet that the Empire fell in every iteration of the Thousandfold Thought. The river Sursa catching the Horde and grappling it whole were always axiomatic as was the exhaustion of supplies and eating Sranc en masse. The Ordeal probably succumbed to the consequences of Sranc consumption in every version of the Thousandfold Thought as well.
Aside, Sorweel suggests that every winter some idiot eats Sranc when stuck beyond the Pale and does Earwa's version of "The Shining." Classic Bakker, Sorweel also references a simple cure in a one-liner.
Saubon called it in TGO. You don't know what role you are to play when Kellhus leaves you to your own devices. Only that you've been conditioned to act or to break as per His nefarious design. The Ordeal was going to consume itself, no matter who was at the helm.
Random aside, Kellhus leaves Kelmomas and Esmenet part-way through Chapter One when they are nearish (by Esmenet's reckoning) to Sumna to get clothes and supplies... where and what did he stash?
-
My thoughts on these:
Did he anticipate his posession?
It seems like the possession was an important part of Kellhus' plan as implied by the "struck treaties with the Pit" line. As others have said, he needed Ajokli to be able to take on the Consult and have a higher chance of success.
Did he anticipate his death
It's very likely that he did, couldn't really discount that as a possibility when going against the Consult (especially after he realized the Dûnyain had taken over).
Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
Still unsure about this one, he definitely seemed to intend to have Esmenet release Kelmomas, but after that... Could he anticipate that Kelmomas would be able to reach the Golden Room? I suppose so, it just doesn't seem as certain to me as the previous ones.
Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
Almost certainly, it's implied that he knew exactly what Achamian had been up and planned on doing (travelling with the Skin Eaters, Ishuäl, etc.). And similarly, after Mimara fled Momemn, it would make sense he'd expect the two of them to eventually end up at Golgotterath.
Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
I might be mistaken, but I don't believe Moënghus the Younger was that important to Kellhus' plans (he was just used by Serwa to manipulate Sorweel, then left behind as he had been too traumatized by Ishterebinth/was no longer needed).
Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
I don't think he did, as Ajokli only seems to have possessed Cnaiür after being unable to find Kellhus' soul.
Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
I don't think he was ever able to realize Sorweel was an agent of Yatwer. He was lucky that Kelmomas was able to see through him.
-
My tally?
Did he anticipate his possession?
Yes. Part of the plan. His way of circumventing damnation and attaining the absolute. I'm still a bit confused and my thoughts haven't settled, but I am almost inclined to think that he is, and always was, Ajokli, since the Outside is timeless. So whenever someone called him a malefic deceiver demon they were actually right, to an extent.
Did he anticipate his death
Nope. Should have learned from his father. Even one such as him is blind to his blindness. Just like Moënghus the elder, he died at the hands of a mad son to no point. But it's ok, he's already secured his afterlife so it's just everyone else that's screwed.
Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
Not even remotely.
Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
No idea. It's possible but I doubt he much cared. They make little difference to his plans.
Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
I doubt it. Too far removed in time and space, and well into where the Darkness was building.
Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
Mortal Kellhus? No. But if Kellhus truly is Ajokli than I guess that form of him did.
Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
Anything is possible but I find that highly improbable.
without some of these moments set up by Kellhus im not sure why he abandons the ordeal to rescue esmenet and kelmomas from mommen
He's a mad and broken Dunyain.
-
Classic Bakker, Sorweel also references a simple cure in a one-liner.
"there is a cure" is all we get, lol.
The Ordeal was going to consume itself, no matter who was at the helm.
Thus Proyas' role to be the scapegoat. Proyas himself tells us this once Kellhus returns
Random aside, Kellhus leaves Kelmomas and Esmenet part-way through Chapter One when they are nearish (by Esmenet's reckoning) to Sumna to get clothes and supplies... where and what did he stash?
Proyas, same scene as above, mentions that Kellhus was wearing a robe he had seen in his baggage a few weeks prior. This seems to imply that, wherever the Ordeal was 'several weeks' ago, Kellhus has decided he was going to be returning to save Esmi, or at least have the foresight to pack a to-go bag and store it somewhere accessible.
Maybe he was doing this throughout - blinking off for a few minutes to store things in safehouses along the way for his inevitable journy back and there again.
-
Classic Bakker, Sorweel also references a simple cure in a one-liner.
"there is a cure" is all we get, lol.
Classic ;).
Random aside, Kellhus leaves Kelmomas and Esmenet part-way through Chapter One when they are nearish (by Esmenet's reckoning) to Sumna to get clothes and supplies... where and what did he stash?
Proyas, same scene as above, mentions that Kellhus was wearing a robe he had seen in his baggage a few weeks prior. This seems to imply that, wherever the Ordeal was 'several weeks' ago, Kellhus has decided he was going to be returning to save Esmi, or at least have the foresight to pack a to-go bag and store it somewhere accessible.
Maybe he was doing this throughout - blinking off for a few minutes to store things in safehouses along the way for his inevitable journy back and there again.
I can get behind that thought.
Also, holy shit, when was the last time we interacted with each other directly on the forum? Madshire 8).
-
A thought regarding why Kellhus went back for Esmi:
He says a couple things to her about why he went back; one is that she is his only darkness, which seems straightforward enough. But there may be more significance to his other claim: "[you are] the only place I can hide."
We know Kellhus has to find a way to hide his soul from Ajokli. My take was that somehow, something about the metaphysics of Earwa allows one to hide one's soul in darkness/oblivion. How those two concepts are related, I'm not completely sure, but I assumed that Kellhus brought Esmenet back to the Great Ordeal because he needed to hide his soul in her shadow.
-
Wow, I like that one a lot. I'd be really surprised if that's something RSB intended, and I'm not sure how it would work within the metaphysics of the books, but I LIKE it.
-
@SuJuroit, okay, let's run with it:
- The Judging Eye (in communicating with Koringhus) seems to tell us that the Dûnyain and their mission is evil because they seek to control the world; this seems an indication that, to the God of Gods at least, the Darkness is Holy and warring against it is Unholy
- The Psûkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users
- The Nonmen worship the space between the Gods; according to Cleric they worship what they do not know, presumably as a means of finding Oblivion. This feels like they see the Darkness as that means. (See also the "The space between the gods" thread on the WLW section of this forum.)
- Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).
- The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?
- When Sorweel descends to the depths in TGO, where the Nonmen go to seek Oblivion, the entire venture is filled with literal darkness and silence that seem more than casually related to the search for Oblivion
I would propose that it works something like this: an easy interpretation of the Darkness is that it represents the intent of the God; that when the world began it was naught but the Darkness that the God set in motion. As Nonmen then later Men warred against the Darkness and attempted to impose their own meaning on the world, they shattered the Darkness and made space for the Gods and Damnation. To bargain with the Gods is to seek redemption in mankind's interpretation of reality; to seek redemption in the Darkness is to seek it from/with the God of Gods. To seek Oblivion is to seek to reunite your soul with the Darkness from whence it came---to release the impositions of meaning and control and to embrace the Holiness of ignorance. I don't know how the specifics of that work in Kellhus's case, but we do know that the only Darkness he has consistently known is his love for Esmenet.
Essentially, ignorance and doubt, above all else, are Holy.
-
Excellent hints.
-
Very interesting, thank you, OntaSensitiveCone.
-
A thought regarding why Kellhus went back for Esmi:
He says a couple things to her about why he went back; one is that she is his only darkness, which seems straightforward enough. But there may be more significance to his other claim: "[you are] the only place I can hide."
We know Kellhus has to find a way to hide his soul from Ajokli. My take was that somehow, something about the metaphysics of Earwa allows one to hide one's soul in darkness/oblivion. How those two concepts are related, I'm not completely sure, but I assumed that Kellhus brought Esmenet back to the Great Ordeal because he needed to hide his soul in her shadow.
I think it's just as simple as Kellhus only ever being "I" instead of a place inhabiting a body (as he sees himself when super-dunyaining) is when he's succumbing to appetite, emotion, and instinct with Esmenet.
-
Did he anticipate his posession?
I think it was a gradual thing that he didn't realize was happening. That being said, I think he knew the risks. He dabbled with the Daimos. Kellhus probably thought himself too smart for the classic possession trick.
Did he anticipate his death
The Thousandfold Thought went dark at Golgotterath. Knowing how much Kellhus can think ahead, he most likely considered it a possibility. His arrogance probably made him think there was a small chance of that happening. You know... because Kellhus is so great, right?
Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
No way. He was blind to Kelmomas the entire time I think.
Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
Oh yeah. Kellhus saw that coming since the first trilogy. He said that Akka would kneel the next time they met. I loved the build up to that part, by the way.
Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
He asked Akka if Cnaiur still lived so I think Kellhus didn't see this one coming.
Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
Solid no. I don't think Kellhus thought that Cnaiur was alive.
Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
No again. I think Kellhus was legit oblivious to Kelmomas and Sorweel the whole time.
-
•The Psûkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users
Do we know this to be true? We know it leaves no Mark, but is there any evidence its practitioners aren't damned beyond that? Chorae not only protect against the Psukhe, but kill its practitioners.
•Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).
Sranc are merely soulless; animate dolls made of meat. They don't so much find Oblivion as they ARE Oblivion.
•The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?
This is interesting. If true, perhaps the Dolour is the ultimate savior of the Non-Men, the best thing that could ever happen to them. But it raises questions about the Inverse Fire, which apparently is the tool the Consult used to recruit erratic Non-Men in the first place; they seem to see themselves in the Pit, which both helps restore them to lucidity and causes them to believe that finding Oblivion is a fool's errand. Could the Inverse Fire be wrong sometimes? Could one see oneself as damned but still find Oblivion? Why would an erratic Non-Man join the Consult if the Inverse Fire showed him finding Oblivion, or otherwise not suffering damnation? Does it lie and show everybody in the Pit? That would seem appropriate to its status as The Goad, but Kellhus claimed it burned true and saw himself descending as Hunger, so who knows.
-
I feel like Damnation is much more fluid than it is made out to be. I think that Nonman just got lucky about when he died. He'd normally have been Damned, but a few dozen Ciphrang were busy being trapped in the Inside, Ajokli was in Kellhus, a Topos short circuited the escape route, Resumption was near...take your pick. I don't think it was a typical outcome, is what I'm trying to say.
-
I feel like Damnation is much more fluid than it is made out to be. I think that Nonman just got lucky about when he died. He'd normally have been Damned, but a few dozen Ciphrang were busy being trapped in the Inside, Ajokli was in Kellhus, a Topos short circuited the escape route, Resumption was near...take your pick. I don't think it was a typical outcome, is what I'm trying to say.
As if Earwa and the metaphysics of souls isn't brutal enough, now there's an RNG element in the mix! You happen to die when a couple of Ciphrang are having their coffee break or dropping the Outside equivalent of a deuce and your soul can make a break for Oblivion. 15 minutes earlier or later and it's an ETERNITY of torment. Harsh, but strangely appropriate for the setting!
-
When you die in Earwa, your soul is instantly transported to a mini-game of expert mode Frogger.
You have to carefully guide your soul across the dangerous highway of the Outside, while various entities (various Ciphrang, Gods, family members etc.) try to get you.
Few can make it all the way across to Oblivion.
-
•The Psûkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users
Do we know this to be true? We know it leaves no Mark, but is there any evidence its practitioners aren't damned beyond that? Chorae not only protect against the Psukhe, but kill its practitioners.
I believe one of the glossaries states that the Psûkhe is non-cognitive, and I recall Bakker once confirming in an older interview that the Psûkhe had no truck with meaning and thus leaves no mark; also we have Kellhus's explanation to Moënghus that it depends on one's ability to feel. So maybe I should say that it feels like a good fit with the Darkness-is-God narrative.
Chorae have no interaction with damnation, only with sorcery---otherwise very few people would be able to carry them. You're completely right that we don't have direct evidence that the Psûkhe doesn't damn its users, but in fairness we have almost none of that kind of evidence for anything (we don't even know that sorcery contributes to Achamian's Damnation, as I recall Mimara musing, in TJE maybe?). There is reason to suspect, cautiously, that the Mark correlates with Damnation, however, (do we know if the Non-men believe this?) and we know that the Psûkhe does not leave a mark, so I counts it as weak evidence.
•Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).
Sranc are merely soulless; animate dolls made of meat. They don't so much find Oblivion as they ARE Oblivion.
Quite right! Again, more of a fit with the narrative than direct evidence.
•The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?
This is interesting. If true, perhaps the Dolour is the ultimate savior of the Non-Men, the best thing that could ever happen to them. But it raises questions about the Inverse Fire, which apparently is the tool the Consult used to recruit erratic Non-Men in the first place; they seem to see themselves in the Pit, which both helps restore them to lucidity and causes them to believe that finding Oblivion is a fool's errand. Could the Inverse Fire be wrong sometimes? Could one see oneself as damned but still find Oblivion? Why would an erratic Non-Man join the Consult if the Inverse Fire showed him finding Oblivion, or otherwise not suffering damnation? Does it lie and show everybody in the Pit? That would seem appropriate to its status as The Goad, but Kellhus claimed it burned true and saw himself descending as Hunger, so who knows.
I actually took that line from Kellhus as being spoken by Ajokli---that gazing into the Inverse Fire was a helpful extra link between Ajokli and Kellhus at just the right moment in just the right place... In fact, I kinda thought Kellhus saw Ajokli in the IF, had some battle-of-souls/wills with him (which would explain why Malowebi thought Kellhus stared motionless for so long), and lost. That's all pure speculation, though (and someone has probably already come up with this same theory or a better version of it on the other threads.)
Anyway, I think you point out some really good questions about the Inverse Fire! But they're really questions about Oblivion, not about the Dolour being the path to it. Maybe the Dolour/Darkness is a path to Oblivion or maybe the true path to Oblivion requires some ancient meditation; either way, I'm curious what that Erratic would have seen had he gazed into the Inverse Fire. And either way, we have to explain why an Erratic---of all Non-men!---is our first verified instance of a soul finding Oblivion. The fact that Mekeretrig saw his suffering soul in the IF probably just indicates that there's more to it than simply having been afflicted by the Dolour in some capacity over the years. Maybe Oblivion requires that you die so deep in the memory-loss that your identity has basically already dissolved?
-
Really interesting speculations in this thread. I really wish we got some descriptions of Paradise.
-
How about this?
Staring into the IF temporarily cures the Dolour. Which means even a Erratic will see his damnation. If he died at that moment, he would not find Oblivion.
The Erratic killed by Kakaliol might simply not have looked into the IF recently, giving enough time for the Dolour to take him again. Meaning he could find Oblivion.
-
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.
Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.
Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.
-
True, as soon as I knew the Mutilated were Dûnyain (and I didn't foresee the Dûnsult at all) I remembered that conversation in TTT.
-
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.
Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.
Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.
Jesus that is good.
-
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.
Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.
Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.
Jesus that is good.
True, as soon as I knew the Mutilated were Dûnyain (and I didn't foresee the Dûnsult at all) I remembered that conversation in TTT.
It was very well thematically paralleled, in my opinion.