So, the first point I wanted to bring up here for speculation is: how did Kellhus actually choose these concubines?
Imho, id say he chose them based off of intellect. That's why he chose Esme, so we're told.
I meant besides intellect. ;) You'd think Kellhus would have had some more criteria at least for some of those concubines.
Also, he was incredibly lucky he managed to find Esmenet so early on, those other women had the intellect marker too and look at how that turned out (allegedly, at least...). Amazing "luck" (or...intervention from someone?) is nothing new for Kellhus, though.
Remember that Mimara is also spectacularly specialI don't think Mimara is inherently more special than any other woman with the Judging Eye. Mimara might have gotten further in using it, but that is a question of experience.
Remember that Mimara is also spectacularly specialI don't think Mimara is inherently more special than any other woman with the Judging Eye. Mimara might have gotten further in using it, but that is a question of experience.
Well, yes, still we have no idea how common it is to have the Judging Eye. And, even so, Mimara is "different" in that we are related the idea that all women who have the Eye fail to birth live children, yet Mimara does.Actually, it was specifically phrased as something like "always birth dead children". Which she did. The fact that she had twins, one of who wasn't stillborn, doesn't negate the stated and fulfilled condition for having the Eye.
We also don't know if others who have had the Eye were in the same boat as Mimara, having always had it even before being pregnant.There is no indication of it not being so.
Actually, it was specifically phrased as something like "always birth dead children". Which she did. The fact that she had twins, one of who wasn't stillborn, doesn't negate the stated and fulfilled condition for having the Eye.
We also don't know if others who have had the Eye were in the same boat as Mimara, having always had it even before being pregnant.There is no indication of it not being so.
Right, I mean, you said the same thing I did, just with a double negative. The result is still the same, we don't know.I think you misunderstood my point both times. The paradox is solved with the twins, we have a case when only one child needs to be stillborn if the woman is pregnant with twins. It happened, so the condition is clarified. The phrasing is correct, but one of its initial meanings is eliminated.
I don't think it's luck, but I also don't think Kellhus could know what to actually select for.
Remember that Mimara is also spectacularly special and that has nothing to do with Kellhus. So, Esmenet is just special of her own right. She, similar to biblical Mary, is the entrance point of god into Eärwa, but then twisted as the entrance point of the No-God.
And he understood how profoundly it had mangled her, being the human portal for the emergence of inhuman souls, loving what could only manipulate her in turn.People can say what they want about Esmenet and her children, but there's definitely no denying the fact that all of them are/were quite remarkable.
I don't think Mimara is inherently more special than any other woman with the Judging Eye. Mimara might have gotten further in using it, but that is a question of experience.
Well, yes, still we have no idea how common it is to have the Judging Eye. And, even so, Mimara is "different" in that we are related the idea that all women who have the Eye fail to birth live children, yet Mimara does. We also don't know if others who have had the Eye were in the same boat as Mimara, having always had it even before being pregnant.
Actually, it was specifically phrased as something like "always birth dead children". Which she did. The fact that she had twins, one of who wasn't stillborn, doesn't negate the stated and fulfilled condition for having the Eye.
When we're talking about other women with the Judging Eye, there is no reason to consider them any different from Mimara, no evidence to the contrary is present in the books. Since formally evidence first needs to be found, the argument about other women possibly being different is inherently weak. Though I'll admit this formal method pertains more to the real world than to fiction.
I think we just don't know, and probably will never know. Mimara is special. She sees with the God's own Eye, she is the true prophet and is confirmed as being holy (those silver halos, compared to Kellhus' golden ones).I heavily dispute all of those claims. The Judging Eye, while uncommon, is not unheard of. Mimara's prophet status lives only in her head (note that no one else calls her a prophet in-universe), and at this point I'm much more of a mind to consider her crazy as opposed to special. Silver halos are completely unconfirmed, they are not specifically referred as such in the books, are seen only in a very strange vision with the Judging Eye active, are not compared in-universe to the golden ones Kellhus has, and, lastly, might easily just be a quirk of light of perception. Like a distortion indicating that what Mimara sees is actually a vision of some kind, and not her actual reflection.
What is special about Mimara when compared to other women with the JE is that she is the one that we see in the story, the one whose POV we have, the one who was there to witness the beginning of the Second Apocalypse (and who will definitely have an important role to play in the future).Now, this is indisputable. But it's an out-of-universe thing instead of an in-universe one. It's something important to us readers, but it shouldn't - and hopefully doesn't - have any bearing on the plot or setting of the series.
I heavily dispute all of those claims. The Judging Eye, while uncommon, is not unheard of. Mimara's prophet status lives only in her head (note that no one else calls her a prophet in-universe), and at this point I'm much more of a mind to consider her crazy as opposed to special. Silver halos are completely unconfirmed, they are not specifically referred as such in the books, are seen only in a very strange vision with the Judging Eye active, are not compared in-universe to the golden ones Kellhus has, and, lastly, might easily just be a quirk of light of perception. Like a distortion indicating that what Mimara sees is actually a vision of some kind, and not her actual reflection.
Also, what I meant by stating that evidence first should be presented that she is, in fact, different is best illustrated by an example. There is nothing ruling out the possibility of Mimara being an alien hybrid inserted in the narrative because Ridley Scott paid Bakker big bucks to do so, which incidentally explains all of her special abilities (Ridley Scott gets his money's worth, and also, alien science!). Now, this is, obviously, a ridiculous claim, but it is supported by the lack of evidence to the contrary, instead of any evidence of it actually being so. This is why I always come very opposed to the idea of such unsupported claims. They aren't based on anything objective, anything that can be reviewed by others, they only have an idea or a gut feeling behind them. There is no productive discussion to be had in such circumstances.
Now, this is indisputable. But it's an out-of-universe thing instead of an in-universe one. It's something important to us readers, but it shouldn't - and hopefully doesn't - have any bearing on the plot or setting of the series.
But I think we can't completely discard the silver halos as being only in Mimara's head/a trick of the light/whatever. There was also that tapestry that she finds in TUC that mirrors what she saw in the vision with the silver halos (almost?) perfectly.Let's address the tapestry first and foremost. Here is its description:
A dank socket between trees. A rare shaft of moonlight. Her own reflection across a black pool ... only transformed by the Eye into the very image she now holds in her hands ...The way I see it, "the plate of brilliant silver about her head" indicates that the woman is blessed, which is an antonym of "damned". It doesn't specify any kind of enlightened state (even from Mimara's point of view), it speaks of judgement. This judgement needs to be stylized somehow in the image, since not everyone sees with the Judging Eye.
A pregnant woman, her cropped hair all the more black for the plate of brilliant silver about her head.
Blessed.
If I remember correctly, Achamian also thinks of Mimara as a prophet a few times, so it's not just her referring to herself as such.As far as I remember, he thinks of the abilities bestowed upon her by the Eye as prophetic and something more than human, it's not so much about Mimara herself.
Also, in the series, it is said that a prophet speaks with the God's voice, and delivers the word of the God to Men. Mimara (and every single woman who had the JE) sees with the God's Eyes.And here we have a problem. The Eye is known, yet the prophets we're aware of are all men. Now, it's not in itself an indication of anything, it's just something I consider extremely important. To the point of not being sold on Mimara's prophet status.
I don't think anything of what I said regarding Mimara was that outrageous. I think your example was a bit too much considering that everything that I said was either something already acknowledged out-of- or in-universe (if only by Mimara herself in the latter case), but fine.No, no, no, I wasn't at all bashing you! I specifically used an outrageous example to make my point clear, it wasn't about what you or H said. The claim that Mimara is special in-universe is much more plausible than my example, but it has the same innate problem, the lack of evidence in support of it. My point is, not everything that could happen (however plausible) should be considered with the same care. Some things (again, however plausible) just don't have the same amount of corroboration as others.
The last thing I wanted to do was to put an end to a potentially interesting discussion with my claims, so if it came across like that, I apologize.You have nothing to apologize for! If anything, I should apologize for coming of as harsh because I often prefer brevity to clarity. I most certainly do not want other people to stop participating in the discussions I take part in.
I never tried to imply this had any bearing in-universe. It's the way Mimara is special to us, like you said, and separate from what might be going on in-universe. I was just trying to address the out-of-universe as well as the in-universe angle there.Oh! Got it.
Let's address the tapestry first and foremost. Here is its description:Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 11, "The Occlusion"A dank socket between trees. A rare shaft of moonlight. Her own reflection across a black pool ... only transformed by the Eye into the very image she now holds in her hands ...The way I see it, "the plate of brilliant silver about her head" indicates that the woman is blessed, which is an antonym of "damned". It doesn't specify any kind of enlightened state (even from Mimara's point of view), it speaks of judgement. This judgement needs to be stylized somehow in the image, since not everyone sees with the Judging Eye.
A pregnant woman, her cropped hair all the more black for the plate of brilliant silver about her head.
Blessed.
As far as I remember, he thinks of the abilities bestowed upon her by the Eye as prophetic and something more than human, it's not so much about Mimara herself.
And here we have a problem. The Eye is known, yet the prophets we're aware of are all men. Now, it's not in itself an indication of anything, it's just something I consider extremely important. To the point of not being sold on Mimara's prophet status.
Even taking into account that I'm very aware that Earwan society is extremely discriminating toward women.
No, no, no, I wasn't at all bashing you! I specifically used an outrageous example to make my point clear, it wasn't about what you or H said. The claim that Mimara is special in-universe is much more plausible than my example, but it has the same innate problem, the lack of evidence in support of it. My point is, not everything that could happen (however plausible) should be considered with the same care. Some things (again, however plausible) just don't have the same amount of corroboration as others.
For example, the way that Mimara thinks herself a prophet for a huge amount of chapters has, from the structural (and thus out-of-universe) point of view, clear signs of misdirection. She repeats that she's a prophet so many times that we, the readers, are starting to take it for granted, forgetting that it's only her opinion. Later, it even stops being an opinion, she is completely convinced, and again, it wears on the readers, diluting our critical thinking.
And then all of it is complicated by the fact that she, in fact, has supernatural abilities, ones attributed to the God, no less. She can do more than a human, more than a sorcerer, more than anyone encountered, actually. But is it proof of her prophetic status? Or is it the same trap Kellhus fell into in TTT? He believed himself divine, at least for a time, and he also possessed outstanding abilities, even rarer than Mimara's. Unlike the Judging Eye, which was encountered more than once in history, Metagnosis was used by just one Nonman (Su'juroit) before Kellhus.
We know how well it worked out for Kellhus. But he, in the end, stopped trusting his visions. Mimara, on the other hand, has been shown to utterly lose her critical thinking on the matter.
You have nothing to apologize for! If anything, I should apologize for coming of as harsh because I often prefer brevity to clarity. I most certainly do not want other people to stop participating in the discussions I take part in.
So far, Mimara's special status stands entirely undisputed, but I have serious doubts about her. I voice them as an attempt to dig out the truth of the matter. I will freely admit that I'm interested in what is much more than in what could be. Speaking from my writing experience, there are many points when a narrative can go any way, and it wouldn't even have that much bearing on the story. It might not be relevant that characters are traveling south, for example. They might as well travel north, because it is their journey that's important, not its (physical) direction, which is quite possibly only referenced for the sake of wording a specific paragraph better. Then there are other situations, where, while many possibilities are present, the narrative is limited by the main idea of the work, or at least its plot. This is where Deus Ex Machina often rears its head, or where writers start adding new and previously non-existent elements to their worlds for the sake of moving the plot forward or, even worse, solving it. Now, when the work becomes completely arbitrary in those situations, it's a sigh of bad writing.
The Second Apocalypse lacks those signs almost completely, and they are most certainly not present in anything that concerns metaphysics (there are some plot aspects that are suspect to me, for example, but nothing that comes even close to unraveling the whole series; it's a huge achievement of Bakker in my eyes). This is why I think that many elements that solve the mystery of Mimara are already present in the narrative. Present and stated or at least alluded to. This is good form, and it was always a mark of the series. And this is why I'm loath to accept as an argument, especially in the case of Mimara, something explicitly not stated or alluded to in the books.
This was my point concerning the claim that Mimara might be different from other women with the Judging Eye. There is no statement that I can remember that comes even close to suggesting something like this. So, while possible and not outrageous, it is still unsupported, unlike many other things that we have clear evidence of.
Keep in mind the Judging Eye could also be short-circuited by the No-God. I feel this is very deliberate on Bakker's side.Well, yes, still we have no idea how common it is to have the Judging Eye. And, even so, Mimara is "different" in that we are related the idea that all women who have the Eye fail to birth live children, yet Mimara does.Actually, it was specifically phrased as something like "always birth dead children". Which she did. The fact that she had twins, one of who wasn't stillborn, doesn't negate the stated and fulfilled condition for having the Eye.We also don't know if others who have had the Eye were in the same boat as Mimara, having always had it even before being pregnant.There is no indication of it not being so.
Keep in mind the Judging Eye could also be short-circuited by the No-God. I feel this is very deliberate on Bakker's side.There is only indication to the contrary. I don't understand why would you think that the Eye is at all affected by the No-God.