The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: locke on June 13, 2014, 07:35:12 pm
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You are about to begin reading R. Scott Bakker’s new novel, The Unholy Consult. Relax. Concentrate. Dispel every other thought. Let the world around you fade. Best to close the door; the TV is always on in the next room. Tell the others right away, “No, I don’t want to watch TV!” Raise your voice— they won’t hear you otherwise—“ I’m reading! I don’t want to be disturbed!” Maybe they haven’t heard you, with all that racket; speak louder, yell: “I’m beginning to read Scott Bakker’s new novel!” Or if you prefer, don’t say anything; just hope they’ll leave you alone.
Find the most comfortable position: seated, stretched out, curled up, or lying flat. Flat on your back, on your side, on your stomach. In an easy chair, on the sofa, in the rocker, the deck chair, on the hassock. In the hammock, if you have a hammock. On top of your bed, of course, or in the bed. You can even stand on your hands, head down, in the yoga position. With the book upside down, naturally.
Of course, the ideal position for reading is something you can never find. In the old days they used to read standing up, at a lectern. People were accustomed to standing on their feet, without moving. They rested like that when they were tired of horseback riding. Nobody ever thought of reading on horseback; and yet now, the idea of sitting in the saddle, the book propped against the horse’s mane, or maybe tied to the horse’s ear with a special harness, seems attractive to you. With your feet in the stirrups, you should feel quite comfortable for reading; having your feet up is the first condition for enjoying a read.
Well, what are you waiting for? Stretch your legs, go ahead and put your feet on a cushion, on two cushions , on the arms of the sofa, on the wings of the chair, on the coffee table, on the desk, on the piano, on the globe. Take your shoes off first. If you want to, put your feet up; if not, put them back. Now don’t stand there with your shoes in one hand and the book in the other.
Adjust the light so you won’t strain your eyes. Do it now, because once you’re absorbed in reading there will be no budging you. Make sure the page isn’t in shadow, a clotting of black letters on a gray background, uniform as a pack of mice; but be careful that the light cast on it isn’t too strong, doesn’t glare on the cruel white of the paper, gnawing at the shadows of the letters as in a southern noonday. Try to foresee now everything that might make you interrupt your reading. Cigarettes within reach, if you smoke, and the ashtray. Anything else? Do you have to pee? All right, you know best.
It’s not that you expect anything in particular from this particular book. You’re the sort of person who, on principle, no longer expects anything of anything. There are plenty, younger than you or less young, who live in the expectation of extraordinary experiences: from books, from people, from journeys, from events, from what tomorrow has in store. But not you. You know that the best you can expect is to avoid the worst. This is the conclusion you have reached, in your personal life and also in general matters, even international affairs. What about books? Well, precisely because you have denied it in every other field, you believe you may still grant yourself legitimately this youthful pleasure of expectation in a carefully circumscribed area like the field of books, where you can be lucky or unlucky, but the risk of disappointment isn’t serious.
So, then, you noticed in an email that The Unholy Consult had appeared, the new book by Scott Bakker, who hadn’t published for several years. You went to his house and read the volume. Good for you.
In his window you have promptly identified the cover with the title you were looking for. Following this visual trail, you have forced your way through his house past the thick barricade of Books You Haven’t Read, which were frowning at you from the tables and shelves , trying to cow you. But you know you must never allow yourself to be awed, that among them there extend for acres and acres the Books You Needn’t Read, the Books Made For Purposes Other Than Reading, Books Read Even Before You Open Them Since They Belong To The Category Of Books Read Before Being Written. And thus you pass the outer girdle of ramparts, but then you are attacked by the infantry of the Books That If You Had More Than One Life You Would Certainly Also Read But Unfortunately Your Days Are Numbered.
With a rapid maneuver you bypass them and move into the phalanxes of the Books You Mean To Read But There Are Others You Must Read First, the Books Too Expensive Now And You’ll Wait Till They’re Remaindered, the Books ditto When They Come Out In Paperback, Books You Can Borrow From Somebody, Books That Everybody’s Read So It’s As If You Had Read Them, Too. Eluding these assaults, you come up beneath the towers of the fortress, where other troops are holding out:
the Books You’ve Been Planning To Read For Ages,
the Books You’ve Been Hunting For Years Without Success,
the Books Dealing With Something You’re Working On At The Moment,
the Books You Want To Own So They’ll Be Handy Just In Case,
the Books You Could Put Aside Maybe To Read This Summer,
the Books You Need To Go With Other Books On Your Shelves,
the Books That Fill You With Sudden, Inexplicable Curiosity, Not Easily Justified.
Now you have been able to reduce the countless embattled troops to an array that is, to be sure, very large but still calculable in a finite number; but this relative relief is then undermined by the ambush of the Books Read Long Ago Which It’s Now Time To Reread and the Books You’ve Always Pretended To Have Read And Now It’s Time To Sit Down And Really Read Them.
With a zigzag dash you shake them off and leap straight into the citadel of the New Books Whose Author Or Subject Appeals To You. Even inside this stronghold you can make some breaches in the ranks of the defenders, dividing them into New Books By Authors Or On Subjects Not New (for you or in general) and New Books By Authors Or On Subjects Completely Unknown (at least to you), and defining the attraction they have for you on the basis of your desires and needs for the new and the not new (for the new you seek in the not new and for the not new you seek in the new).
All this simply means that, having rapidly glanced over the titles of the volumes displayed in the house, you have turned toward a stack of The Unholy Consult fresh off the printer, you have grasped a copy, and you have carried it to the author so that your right to read it can be established.
You cast another bewildered look at the books around you (or, rather: it was the books that looked at you , with the bewildered gaze of dogs who, from their cages in the city pound, see a former companion go off on the leash of his master, come to rescue him), and out you went.
You derive a special pleasure from an un-published book, and it isn’t only a book you are reading early but its novelty as well, which could also be merely that of an object fresh from the factory, the youthful bloom of new books, which lasts until the dust jacket begins to yellow, until a veil of smog settles on the top edge, until the binding becomes dog-eared, in the rapid autumn of libraries. No, you hope always to encounter true newness, which, having been new once, will continue to be so. Having read the freshly published book, you will take possession of this newness at the first moment, without having to pursue it, to chase it. Will it happen this time? You never can tell. Let’s see how it begins.
Perhaps you started leafing through the book already, tell me
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
In other words, it’s better for you to restrain your impatience and wait to open the book at home. Now. Yes, you are in your room, calm; you open the book to page one, no, to the last page, first you want to see how long it is. It’s not too long, fortunately. Long novels written today are perhaps a contradiction: the dimension of time has been shattered, we cannot love or think except in fragments of time each of which goes off along its own trajectory and immediately disappears. We can rediscover the continuity of time only in the novels of that period when time no longer seemed stopped and did not yet seem to have exploded, a period that lasted no more than a hundred years.
You turn the book over in your hands, you scan the sentences on the back of the jacket, generic phrases that don’t say a great deal. So much the better, there is no message that indiscreetly outshouts the message that the book itself must communicate directly, that you must extract from the book, however much or little it may be. Of course, this circling of the book, too, this reading around it before reading inside it, is a part of the pleasure in a new book, but like all preliminary pleasures, it has its optimal duration if you want it to serve as a thrust toward the more substantial pleasure of the consummation of the act, namely the reading of the book.
So here you are now, ready to attack the first lines of the first page. You prepare to recognize the unmistakable tone of the author. No. You don’t recognize it at all. But now that you think about it, who ever said this author had an unmistakable tone? On the contrary , he is known as an author who changes greatly from one book to the next. And in these very changes you recognize him as himself. Here, however, he seems to have absolutely no connection with all the rest he has written, at least as far as you can recall . Are you disappointed? Let’s see. Perhaps at first you feel a bit lost, as when a person appears who, from the name, you identified with a certain face, and you try to make the features you are seeing tally with those you had in mind, and it won’t work. But then you go on and you realize that the book is readable nevertheless, independently of what you expected of the author, it’s the book in itself that arouses your curiosity; in fact , on sober reflection, you prefer it this way, confronting something and not quite knowing yet what it is.
(with apologies to Italo Calvino)
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Hey Madness. Would you say that TUC really concludes the whole story?
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Dare I say it? Reading that post was...
The slog of slogs!
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Since I'm fielding little queries in Quorum right now, Feananra, I thought I'd quote you what I wrote when SR asked me the same last night.
I'm also thinking about doing a general impressions post, as per lockesnow's "WHAT DO YOU SEE" query.
SilentRoamer: do you feel it was a satisfying ending and gave you the answers you were looking for
Madness: Yes, and no.
Madness: The yes part because it absolutely does it's job of concluding TAE. And it's a fucking mindfuck of an infodump.
Madness: As I've said to Wilshire - the maddening combinations... we just couldn't have outthought him.
Madness: But no because it honestly raises as many questions as it answers... if not more.
Madness: The dude's imagination is... bottomless?
And welcome, Rhom :).
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Thanks Madness, will have to read the quorum then. But how can I go back and read the things that were said yesterday; the quorum only shows the last 20 lines or so?
Do you by any chance know when the rest of the preview chapter posted here is going to be released?
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Yeah, you can't. The Quorum is impermanent but everyone seems to be asking questions there. Hence, why I quoted for you (I have ability to go back).
As far as I know Bakker wants to tighten everything up a little bit and then he'll get in touch with Pat. So in two words, no idea :).
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Can you go back and copy the whole quorum since you started answering questions about the book? Unless it's too much of a hassle...
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Madness, regarding your comment on "the maddening combinations", is this just to say that while the series contains plenty of hints as to where the series is going, the sheer number of possibilities make it near-impossible to predict?
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Can you go back and copy the whole quorum since you started answering questions about the book? Unless it's too much of a hassle...
This had to be copy and pasted line by line (because the Quorum Moderator Panel presents the feed bottom to top - don't ask me why) at 20 lines per page exploring 80 pages :P.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:40 pm]: madness have you seen the TUC manuscript? or does that recent post refer to something else?
Madness [12|Jun 02:42 pm]: I have seen the Unmentionable, SR ;).
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:43 pm]: the complete manuscript? woop woop
Madness [12|Jun 02:43 pm]: Not the complete manuscript.
Madness [12|Jun 02:43 pm]: :)
Madness [12|Jun 02:43 pm]: In the sense that it remains unfinished.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:43 pm]: i thought that Bakker had confirmed he had completed the manuscript? or was it just the first draft he finished?
Madness [12|Jun 02:44 pm]: I think those are the "same thing" one in normal human speak (the latter) and one in publishing speak (former).
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:44 pm]: ah ok...... so you literally hold the answer to all my questions
Wilshire [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: I thought "it was finished" as far as writing is concerned, more or less. It still needs to be chopped up by the publishers.
Madness [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: I'm privy to... a mind-blowing and privileged perspective and I'll do what I can to honour that.
Wilshire [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: i.e. he won't tell anyone anything.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: good i fucking hate spoilers
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: :)
Madness [12|Jun 02:45 pm]: Bakker has... some next-level amount of "projects" coming through. And I'm very happy he's waited as long as he has to get it right.
Madness [12|Jun 02:46 pm]: I'm being choice wordy, Wilshire.
Madness [12|Jun 02:46 pm]: It was his decision to let the cat out of the bag as the information has been available for over a month.
Madness [12|Jun 02:47 pm]: But... as it stands. He and I did freestyle about many things, this circumstance being one of them, and in the spirit of raising a frenzy about the next couple years, harassing me is now an open option.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:47 pm]: whats the estimated publish date now? is it even this year?
Madness [12|Jun 02:47 pm]: I don't really know. I do know that I don't understanding how publishing works.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: Seriously, it seems fucked.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: Umm... I want to say absolutely by mid-2015.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: But early is still an option.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: I gather that these companies work in "Quarters" and sequences/cues of putting authors out.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: And Bakker is not a priority.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: Except to us, of course.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: The trick is making people see the vision as we do though :).
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: Outreach ;D.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 10:28 pm]: madness, how spoiler restrained are you, can you answer the following, a yes or no would suffice. Do we recieve a Kellhus PoV?
Cüréthañ [12|Jun 10:39 pm]: YOU MUST TELL ME
Cüréthañ [12|Jun 10:41 pm]: also, weren't we once promised the second half of chapter one?
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 10:48 pm]: WHAT DO YOU SEE
Madness [12|Jun 10:52 pm]: I'm personally constraining myself - but Bakker encouraged me to tease as much as possible (I'm still trying to find a balance in that). There are plenty of thoughts about the process he vetoed me to share though.
Madness [12|Jun 10:52 pm]: Second half is coming (I tried to talk him into giving him another part of the book but he's commited to what he initially told us)
Madness [12|Jun 10:53 pm]: I encouraged him to talk to Pat sooner than later but Bakker waiting to talk to all the long-standing draft readers and then tighten it all up one final time.
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 10:57 pm]: do you feel it was a satisfying ending and gave you the answers you were looking for
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 10:57 pm]: im trying to phrase my questions well
SilentRoamer [12|Jun 10:57 pm]: as i can see you are with your responses
Madness [12|Jun 10:57 pm]: And I thank you for that :).
Madness [12|Jun 10:58 pm]: Yes, and no.
Madness [12|Jun 10:59 pm]: The yes part because it absolutely does it's job of concluding TAE. And it's a fucking mindfuck of an infodump.
Madness [12|Jun 10:59 pm]: As I've said to Wilshire - the maddening combinations... we just couldn't have outthought him.
Madness [12|Jun 10:59 pm]: But no because it honestly raises as many questions as it answers... if not more.
Madness [12|Jun 10:59 pm]: The dude's imagination is... bottomless?
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 02:25 pm]: do we find out what happened at Ishual?
Madness [13|Jun 02:28 pm]: SR, you know well how perspective matters much in Bakker... There are tangible, even likely, possibilities fielded as to Ishual's ruined state?
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 02:31 pm]: another question - are the Intact much different from the Erratics?
Madness [13|Jun 02:32 pm]: Well, I mean... Bakker's always maintained that Ishterebinth is an info-dump.
Madness [13|Jun 02:33 pm]: He fucking nailed it, in my opinion... but the Nonmen are... not at all what I expected. In fact, so much more than I ever could have imagined.
Madness [13|Jun 02:34 pm]: In a word, Ishterebinth is fucking haunting. Multiple times I had to stop and remind myself that I was reading Bakker.
Madness [13|Jun 02:34 pm]: Blew me the away :o!
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:40 pm]: So Madness....
Madness [13|Jun 03:41 pm]: What's up, SR?
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:42 pm]: is Titirga a neccesary knowledge
Madness [13|Jun 03:44 pm]: The Atrocity Tales are in no way required reading but I definitely experienced some moments of extra-joy for having read them.
Madness [13|Jun 03:45 pm]: Like... more than a few... Again, even the original books... the amount of layering Bakker has shown himself capable of, again and again.
Madness [13|Jun 03:45 pm]: Fucking awesome.
Wilshire [13|Jun 03:46 pm]: You make me so goddamn excited, Madness.
Madness [13|Jun 03:47 pm]: Lmao - if I was Dunyain/Bakker, then he made his move because he liked how the series is reflected in my giant, awe-spun anime eyes ;).
Wilshire [13|Jun 03:47 pm]: So true.
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:55 pm]: ok thanks Madness
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:56 pm]: that actually answers a lot of my internal questions
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:56 pm]: :)
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:56 pm]: The Shortest Path is not always the straightest route
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:56 pm]: :)
Madness [13|Jun 03:57 pm]: Lol... oh man, SR. Muhahaha...
Madness [13|Jun 03:57 pm]: This is going to be fun for me.
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 03:59 pm]: i told you my questions may seem kind, like a smiling knife
Madness [13|Jun 04:01 pm]: Lol... remain open, SR. It is foolish to collapse possibilites at the word of a madman.
locke [13|Jun 08:17 pm]: Is Kellhus a viewpoint character in TUC?
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 08:18 pm]: locke thats a nice question :)
Madness [13|Jun 08:19 pm]: Lmao.
Madness [13|Jun 08:19 pm]: Feananra asked something you'd asked and now so has lockesnow, SR.
Madness [13|Jun 08:19 pm]: And I think the "WHAT DO YOU SEE" question was more a generel request.
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 08:19 pm]: i knew it would be a popular question
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:20 pm]: do TJE see anything of note?
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 08:20 pm]: yeah lol
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 08:20 pm]: Wilshire
Madness [13|Jun 08:20 pm]: So verbatim what I said to SR: "Character POVs interact with Kellhus and the Omnipresent War POVs see the Aspect-Emperor."
locke [13|Jun 08:21 pm]: okay, so same as the last two.
Madness [13|Jun 08:21 pm]: I'll simply bid you think on all of the possibilities, Wilshire... In fact, that'd probably make a fun thread.
SilentRoamer [13|Jun 08:22 pm]: the funny thing is we are all talking from the assumption the TJE is true
locke [13|Jun 08:22 pm]: Do you know the name of the series that shall not be named? (you don't have to tell us the name or even reveal if it was made apparent by the text)
Madness [13|Jun 08:24 pm]: I guess that one doesn't really affect anything... yeah, it came up in conversation, lockesnow. Let me tell you. The way he just passed it off as "oh and this." Mind-blown!
locke [13|Jun 08:25 pm]: ha
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:25 pm]: lol
locke [13|Jun 08:25 pm]: has the first chapter changed significantly? Is there more to it other than the extract posted here, or is that the extant chapter?
Madness [13|Jun 08:29 pm]: Yes, it was given to me two years ago as Ch. 1. But apparently the book has gone through multiple chapter reorganizations.
Madness [13|Jun 08:29 pm]: And it was much longer than the excerpt we received initially.
Madness [13|Jun 08:30 pm]: His words to me were that he plans on releasing the rest of the chapter to Pat but I don't know how he could do that.
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:27 pm]: Hey Madness, perhaps you could clarify, refute, or uphold what I said in my summary
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:30 pm]: My summary: http://www.second-apocalypse.com...=465.0
Madness [13|Jun 08:30 pm]: Wilshire, Ch.3...
Madness [13|Jun 08:30 pm]: Also a much bigger chapter.
Madness [13|Jun 08:30 pm]: Than what you heard read.
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: I knew that already!
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: lol
Madness [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: There was nothing too different, really, man ☺.
Madness [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: It's just that so much more happens in that chapter.
Madness [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: :P
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:31 pm]: I was hoping for more ;)
locke [13|Jun 08:35 pm]: Does Death come swirling down?
Madness [13|Jun 08:35 pm]: Death comes swirling down :).
Madness [13|Jun 08:37 pm]: I will say Wilshire that I asked him to tighten a portion of what you heard up... there were some balances of conflict that weren’t quite layered out as well as others.
Madness [13|Jun 08:37 pm]: Of Ch. 3.
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:37 pm]: balances of conflit.
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:37 pm]: interesting...
Madness [13|Jun 08:37 pm]: That was another aspect that became clear even in scrutinizing the Unmentionable... there were clearly portions of the book he'd just worked longer or harder or got luckier with.
Wilshire [13|Jun 08:38 pm]: lol "got luckier with", like how you threw that in there
Madness [13|Jun 08:38 pm]: To note, I think it's extremely conceited that I might strengthen anything Bakker writes... I'm just a mid-wif ;).
Madness [13|Jun 08:38 pm]: :)
locke [13|Jun 08:41 pm]: are there any inchoroi POVs like we saw from the synthese in the first series?
locke [13|Jun 08:44 pm]: also, the tabby cat has been suspiciously absent for three books, is there a triumphal reappearance of that beloved POV?
Madness [13|Jun 08:48 pm]: Sorry, babysitting - nephew's hungry, dog needed out to piss, etc, etc ;).
Fëananra [13|Jun 08:48 pm]: Do we get answers for what the No-God is and why he keeps asking the questions?
Madness [13|Jun 08:50 pm]: Second question, locke. Sadly, no return of the tabby.
Madness [13|Jun 08:51 pm]: First question is complicated... the book is called TUC... expect revelatory mind-fucks?
locke [13|Jun 08:52 pm]: so is it general omniscient inchoroi stuff or is it specific POV of particular Inchoroi?
Madness [13|Jun 08:52 pm]: Feananra... sorry, I don't really think I can speak on anything like that.
Madness [13|Jun 08:52 pm]: Lockesnow, same as above :).
Fëananra [13|Jun 08:53 pm]: yeah, sorry I knew that question was stretch...
Madness [13|Jun 08:53 pm]: It's ok. We can't know if people don't ask :).
Madness [13|Jun 08:54 pm]: So far there have been... I don't know... four people to ask me anything at all.
Fëananra [13|Jun 08:59 pm]: Would you say that the ending is close to what has been theorized or Nerdaneled in the past or something that no one saw coming?
Madness [13|Jun 09:01 pm]: As you know, we've teased apart so many threads of speculation here on SA. Absolutely, there were little guesses. But no... no one knows where he's going with this... mostly because again it would have been impossible to predict how he uses all the pieces he's established throughout the series.
mrganondorf [13|Jun 09:04 pm]: was anything from tsa able to help Bakker fill a plot hole or whatever?
locke [13|Jun 09:05 pm]: How long is the book?
Fëananra [13|Jun 09:06 pm]: Do you know the name of the third series? (Not asking you to reveal it in case you do know.)
Madness [13|Jun 09:06 pm]: No, MG... he never went back to ZTS (Zombie Three-Seas) after he got another computer because a) it freed him up to write and b) because he always found himself trying to shoehorn other ideas in. Part of the reason he always visited here in a long time. He wanted/wants to stay true to the original visions.
Madness [13|Jun 09:07 pm]: Locke, it's fucking huge... I don't even know what it's going to look like in small print, book form...
Madness [13|Jun 09:07 pm]: An encyclopaedic brick? Lol.
Madness [13|Jun 09:08 pm]: Feananra, lockesnow asked me that early... It came up in conversation with Bakker. There are plenty of things that I'm privileged to know that I can never unknow now ☺.
Madness [13|Jun 09:08 pm]: It's all part of the journey. Again, humbled, that he thought my scrutiny might help him mid-wif the book.
Fëananra [13|Jun 09:10 pm]: Thanks Madness. Any word on the new and expanded glossary?
Madness [13|Jun 09:11 pm]: Just that he absolutely plans on doing one, Feananra, whatever form that might take in the future. It'll be something that's tackled after TUC (To clarify in transcript this meant after the draft of TUC is done – no word on it’s inclusion in the book or otherwise; though Bakker has mentioned publically that the book was getting to big to include it).
Fëananra [13|Jun 09:13 pm]: Can you at least confirm or deny whether the third series ties the story with Neuropath and is set in our world? The possibility of that crackpot turning out true has been haunting me ever since it's been mentioned on TFTSNBN.
Wilshire [13|Jun 09:13 pm]: lmao
Madness [13|Jun 09:15 pm]: And no, I can't, Feananra... questions about the third series are what plague me now .
Wilshire [13|Jun 09:16 pm]: Was TUC as long as you expected. He made it out to be the biggest in the series, but he said later it was only about as long as WLW
Wilshire [13|Jun 09:17 pm]: or, around the same word count, I should have said.
Madness [13|Jun 09:17 pm]: TUC is definitely longer than WLW now - whatever it might have been when he made that commentary.
Wilshire [13|Jun 09:19 pm]: well thats good. it didn't make sense to me that it was both so much bigger and at the same time about the same number of words... Maybe he just uses really long words?
Madness [13|Jun 09:19 pm]: I always have a dictionary on me when reading books. I used it about eight times, Wilshire.
profgrape [13|Jun 10:49 pm]: Would I be out of bounds if I politely asked Madness to restate every question and answer he's given on the UC manuscript? :-)
Wilshire [13|Jun 11:09 pm]: Hmm I'd say it wouldnt hurt to ask
Wilshire [13|Jun 11:10 pm]: but that doesnt mean he'll do it. Your best bet is to ask specific questions in a topic, either create your own or tag along to one that is already started
Madness [13|Jun 11:27 pm]: In the topic already started please. And I will forget. It's already a hassle for me to remember. The individuals who asked me questions would better be able to tell you - even though I've already seen the telephone effect happening lol. Wilshire, still good for a game?
Madness [13|Jun 11:27 pm]: I promise to salvage what I can find from Quorum. Exploring pages at 20 lines per page is taxing.
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Madness, regarding your comment on "the maddening combinations", is this just to say that while the series contains plenty of hints as to where the series is going, the sheer number of possibilities make it near-impossible to predict?
Bakker has clearly had a story he has wanted to tell... I don't think he's lying when he says he's had the end of TSTSNBN decided for years. But the man had the patience and the stamina to tell us PON first. With TJE and WLW, he has spent five books establishing associations in our mind, building up the world.
This all becomes increasingly clear in the sixth volume. I told Bakker I likened it to him establishing the toys in the sandbox. This is finally his chance to play around. I'm glad his writing has had the chance to grow just enough with each tale.
Truth - a lesser author would have just written TUC and TSTSNBN and that would have been it.
EDIT: To be clear, it's the way he uses all of these associations in combination... it's nothing less than a mind-fuck.
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good work, madness.
and good thread, locke. your NG mimicry lays bear that it is firstly a reading machine. its role is hermeutical. slick. the reader is the NG, and the text pops us into its perspective. we've even got trisk and others running around with talk of murdering the world to get volume VI.
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Thanks a lot for that, Madness.
So far you haven't said a single word about the No-God... Isn't there anything that you can tease on that? Was the NG's role in TUC anywhere near what you expected?
eta: Do we have new PoV characters? (Whether human or not.)
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Madness, regarding your comment on "the maddening combinations", is this just to say that while the series contains plenty of hints as to where the series is going, the sheer number of possibilities make it near-impossible to predict?
Bakker has clearly had a story he has wanted to tell... I don't think he's lying when he says he's had the end of TSTSNBN decided for years. But the man had the patience and the stamina to tell us PON first. With TJE and WLW, he has spent five books establishing associations in our mind, building up the world.
This all becomes increasingly clear in the sixth volume. I told Bakker I likened it to him establishing the toys in the sandbox. This is finally his chance to play around. I'm glad his writing has had the chance to grow just enough with each tale.
Truth - a lesser author would have just written TUC and TSTSNBN and that would have been it.
EDIT: To be clear, it's the way he uses all of these associations in combination... it's nothing less than a mind-fuck.
This comment to me indicates that TSTSBN is required to complete the story. Bakker has confirmed however that the plot threads started in PoN are tied up in this book.
Do you think TSTSBN will be required to give readers a satisfactory conclusion?
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Thanks for this, Madness. So excited for this one. I cannot wait to see the Mansion in all of its haunting lunacy.
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SilentRoamer [12|Jun 02:47 pm]: whats the estimated publish date now? is it even this year?
Madness [12|Jun 02:47 pm]: I don't really know. I do know that I don't understanding how publishing works.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: Seriously, it seems fucked.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: Umm... I want to say absolutely by mid-2015.
Madness [12|Jun 02:48 pm]: But early is still an option.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: I gather that these companies work in "Quarters" and sequences/cues of putting authors out.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: And Bakker is not a priority.
Madness [12|Jun 02:49 pm]: Except to us, of course.
This is typical from what we heard and speculated about before. The manuscript is in but now they need to lock on a date, and as you say, if you're not in schedule, you could easily move up a few months. I do remember from previous books that according to Locus, there was about a year in between handing in the MS, to publication. So hopefully early 2015.
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Seems like good news to me. 1 year is at least something to hope for.
Welcome to the fray, Mithfanion.
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This is typical from what we heard and speculated about before. The manuscript is in but now they need to lock on a date, and as you say, if you're not in schedule, you could easily move up a few months. I do remember from previous books that according to Locus, there was about a year in between handing in the MS, to publication. So hopefully early 2015.
But the manuscript is not in; as Madness says he still needs to tighten things or something.
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What's unclear about that, as Wilshere posted in the quorum as well, is whether or not the manuscript is in, and has been in with the publishers since the announcement on Scott;s blog, back in January or so, and that what is going on now is the publisher and Scott doing their editing work on it, which is the normal process between handing in the MS and final publication.
Or, if the manuscript has been handed in, but that there are rewrites being required in such a sense that the book is still being written. That could cause another serious delay, but I believe from what we have been told that the former is the case here. That's why publication in early 2015 would be reasonable.
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Agreed. From this TPB posts it seems like TUC is "done" on his side. Which I took to mean that he would publish it tomorrow if he owned his own publishing company (barring administrative changes like spelling, punctuation, etc.).
My bold for the quotes below:
This from Bakker's blog, The Four Goads (at the Crossroads) (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/the-four-goads-at-the-crossroads/):
So I finished the first draft of The Unholy Consult 3:14 pm, yesterday afternoon.
This was back in October. He clearly wasn't finished with it
[/quote]
In questing for all updates Bakker, I've found a TPB comment (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/love-god-and-entropy/#comment-28748) (thanks, Justin) asking after TUC's progress. Here's Bakker's response:
Almost finished, Justin. I’m thinking about another week or so for the rewrite, a week for touch ups, and then I’ll be sending the ms out to my agent and editors. I’ll be making an announcement when the time comes.
So 4 months later we have word that he is about a week away for rewrites. Looks like January 29th TUC was more-or-less "finished" from Bakker's end.
My agent has the book, and I’m having several copies of the manuscript printed up and bound to distribute to some keen-eyed friends today. That’s as much as I can say detail-wise, at the moment. As soon as my publishers and my agent and I have the details hashed out I will post them here post-haste.
So "about a week" was closer to about 6 weeks, since this post was March 8th. It appears that TUC is done and whatever he has in the MS is what is going to be given to the publishers. The work now is for the publishers to chop it up and tell him to make it shorter, and/or do whatever else they will do. From what some people around the internet say, this process takes about a year. Maybe more, maybe less, depending on priority, and assuming Bakker is not considered a priority, mid-2015 seems the most reasonable guess.
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So "about a week" was closer to about 6 weeks
. . .
this process takes about a year.
So six years is the most reasonable guess...
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Truth - a lesser author would have just written TUC and TSTSNBN and that would have been it.
EDIT: To be clear, it's the way he uses all of these associations in combination... it's nothing less than a mind-fuck.
This comment to me indicates that TSTSBN is required to complete the story. Bakker has confirmed however that the plot threads started in PoN are tied up in this book.
Do you think TSTSBN will be required to give readers a satisfactory conclusion?
TSTSNBN is required to give me a satisfying conclusion :P. Even if TAE concludes wonderfully, there's always been the mention of another time gap between TAE and TSTSNBN and I didn't get any greater insight into that. If Bakker were to keel, I would always, always wonder what would have been. Hell, I look forward to a good number of years speculating/dissecting still with you all after we all read the official volume.
Thanks a lot for that, Madness.
So far you haven't said a single word about the No-God... Isn't there anything that you can tease on that? Was the NG's role in TUC anywhere near what you expected?
eta: Do we have new PoV characters? (Whether human or not.)
I have Calibander's (Mithfanion here) questions done up below :).
What's unclear about that, as Wilshere posted in the quorum as well, is whether or not the manuscript is in, and has been in with the publishers since the announcement on Scott;s blog, back in January or so, and that what is going on now is the publisher and Scott doing their editing work on it, which is the normal process between handing in the MS and final publication.
Or, if the manuscript has been handed in, but that there are rewrites being required in such a sense that the book is still being written. That could cause another serious delay, but I believe from what we have been told that the former is the case here. That's why publication in early 2015 would be reasonable.
Yeah, I can't make it clearer myself, I'm sorry. This was something we talked about a fair bit proportionate to any non-content discussions we had - as I'm very interested in doing what I can to facilitate Bakker's writerly career but also our bounty of reading material from the man. And I really, really just don't understand how publishing works for all that discussion.
I know that, in Bakker's hands, there have multiple, whole-book, revisions. I think the process of shopping the book around to his draft-readers has also taken longer than he thought. And the people in the business who need to have the book at "this stage" have the book...
I realize a date is what everyone really wants... all I can say is to be patient, help us do something to gain some notoriety (i.e. sales) for the books that are out now, and we'll get the book sooner.
On that note, this is also the surest way to see some kind of Bakker book-tour funded after the release (bar us patronizing him ourselves or doing some kind of SA specific meet-up and crowdsourcing him there). Besides raising one author above the many, publisher's seem to do very little that isn't in their interest of returns. And established authors make returns :).
Anyhow...
Here are maybe a third of the Qs that Mithfanion posed in lieu of everyone's "onslaught" of questions :P.
Obviously, many I wouldn't touch and some I included specifically because I promised to try and illustrate what kinds of things I probably can't say.
But in the hopes of whetting some fevered appetites. Enjoy. And thank Calibander all ye Westerosi ingrates a'hovering, if you aren't partaking here.
Will it be published as one book? Do you have any idea about the publication date?
I really don’t know. Of what I’ve read, I definitely voiced the thought that it would benefit from being split up into two books. I think I’ve already answered the publishing question as best I can. As soon as it’s locked into the pipeline, we’ll get it. And, basically, not a minute before the queue makes it so. It really seems the case that if the publisher thinks Bakker will sell more, then we’ll get it earlier. But again, quarters, priority authors, etc, seem to dictate release entirely.
Do we meet new characters? If yes is there anything you can say about who they are, what race or group they belong to?
Hmm… I guess this would be a moment to tease. Yes? No?
Meppa is Fane reincarnated I read on the board. That does away with all the Moenghus rumours that I never bought into. Does he have a big role in the next book? It's an interesting revelation btw. If Meppa is the reincarnation of Fane, is there a reincarnation of Inri Sejenus as well?
Lol – Trisk has you all misled.
Couple of questions regarding the Nonmen: Do we go to Ishterebinth and really see the place described? Do we meet new Nonmen characters? Do we find out who the current Nonmen King is, and what his true alliance is? Finally I am very interested in knowing whether we get to see the Nonmen display their prowess in the last novel?
Mithfanion had asked me most of these Qs before I posted the transcript. Aside from where SilentRoamer asked about the Intact, he also asked me this one while we were playing chess the other night. Is “going to Ishterebinth” actually serious question still ;)? I made the joke that I should have answered that Sorweel just stands there and masturbates for several hundred pages.
I’d much prefer to let you all live Ishterebinth yourselves ;D.
Without revealing the plot or his fate, can you say if the No God makes an actual appearance?
I don’t think I can speak on that.
So you've said that many of the mysteries will be resolved, but that many new questions will arise.
Without revealing the outcome of any of the mysteries, can you name a few mysteries that will be resolved?
Not really, no… Bakker’s a madman. I can think of one plotline specifically, which will torture me for its “resolution.” Perspective is a big deal with Bakker. So many “solved” mysteries are still entwined with ambiguity, of course.
I am insanely curious about anything you could say about Kellhus in this novel. Does his power here rise to a new level? As with the Nonmen question, does he get to show his full prowess in this one, does he get to let go? How desperate does the situation get? Do we see things from him that we have not seen before, or on a greater scale? His screen time was limited in the first two novels, also in terms of showing his ability.
Ah, the balance of power. Lol… the straits are most dire. What can I say about this to raise some hype? That both the exercise of power and the proportionate desperation have, so far, exceeded the speculative journeys of all but very few dark souls.
Will there be dragons in it?
I just thought I’d take the opportunity with this one so that any TSACast listeners may note, the podcast was the very last piece of content speculation I engaged in before reading.
What about the Hundred? What I mean is, do any of the other Gods, manifest physically in the world, or through an Avatar? If yes, could you say who manifests physically or through an avatar?
I can’t speak on this :).
How special is Mimara? Is she a reincarnation too? The same questions I also have about her child.
I really think the first question depends on who you are ;)?
What were you most pleased about while reading the book?
Great question. There were simply so many moments that ping the associations he’s built up throughout the books. In a way, that hasn’t bottomed out on me yet anyhow, the more immersed you are in the world, the more rewarded you are in terms of “a-ha!” moments.
I was most pleased that we’ve gotten a chance to watch Bakker find his stride and just in time too. So many chilling, shiver-worthy moments of awesome.
But I’ll say Ishterebinth, in terms of a straight answer, though there are several other contenders. I still cannot believe that Bakker wrote those passages though… Not that I thought him incapable, it simply seems so foreign and flawless to anything else that he's written before.
Was there anything in it that blew you away in terms of revelations, or were their characters that you really liked in this novel? Moments or set pieces that stood out?
I cannot stress enough that from here on out the striptease is over. It gets real. I happen to think that basically everything is a major revelation. There were so many times I had to pause after a section to digest significances. Or in my initial reading when I just read to read, rather than to scrutinize, where I would stop reading entirely in order to better savor how my world had been so overturned.
I’d rather not get into specifics so that the wonder can impact you all first-hand.
Do we learn more about the history of the Nonmen, and the Inchoroi? Do we hear more references to their ancient battles such as the Cunu-Inchoroi wars? More about Sil, Ciogli the Mountain, Cujara Cinmoi?
Ishterebinth. Infodumps :P.
Do we go to Dagliash?
That does seem to be on the map towards Golgotterath ;)?
Does Kelmomas have a significant role in this book?
Kelmomas remains a significant POV. And, as climactic entries into a series such as this should, I feel like his plotline was one of the best and most surprising!
Do any Mandati sorcerers stand out in this novel?
I feel like this is a good moment to let my awe bleed through but I really don’t want to spoil anything for anyone.
All of them ;D :o?!
Does the storyline surrounding Meppa, Fanyal and Malowebi get significant screen time in this novel?
You forgot Psatma in their little crew of adventurers but yes. As should be expected, I think?
Are the adventures of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal the main, central storyline of this novel?
It really depends on how the book takes form, I think. In accordance with taste, different plot-lines have different potential to impact different temperaments of readers. I know that the Ordeal and Isterebinth really stood out for me as whole arcs. But again… so many revelations everywhere.
Are there more flashbacks to the time of Seswatha, Nau Cayuti and Celmomas? I really enjoyed those.
Yeap. One will stay with me as one of the best passages Bakker has ever written. Definite chills and shivers.
Are there new POV characters? Can you say who will be a new POV?
Lol, another good opportunity to tease? Yes? No? :)
Do you think the character and faction glossary at the end of the book will be expanded for publication of TUC?
I think I can see how this question could be leveraged to garner you implications… As should be expected, I think that the Expanded Encyclopedia will receive an infusion of entries following TAE.
Any additional maps you think, or do the two from WLW suffice?
Bakker’s a world-building junkie ;D? Shimeh featured as a map in TTT, I have a feeling some other places could get map treatment? Something like this, at this point, probably depends on a readership interested in this kind of “extra-content.”
Will the Judging Eye be used, and if yes, more than once?
Another moment where I think my excitement should bleed through but that I absolutely will not speak on.
Cheers all.
I think Bakker probably deserves some thank yous for dropping this on us :P.
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Chuffing ell.
How much for a copy Madness...
Bakker must really trust you mate.
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I burned my copy and ate the ashes ;).
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Hey Madness. Without revealing any names... is there anyone/anything whom we think is dead that turns out alive or vice versa?
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Hey Madness. Without revealing any names... is there anyone/anything whom we think is dead that turns out alive or vice versa?
Grasping at things that shouldn't be grasped.
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Many thanks to Madness and everyone who asked these great questions. Did exactly what it was supposed to do: whetted the appetite of a starved sranc. Want it. Want it real bad.
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So "about a week" was closer to about 6 weeks
. . .
this process takes about a year.
So six years is the most reasonable guess...
Nah. "A week" was contingent on Bakker, who would rewrite this book for 6 years if given the opportunity (I think). 1 year is based on publishers and others who want to see $$, and $$ people tend to want things now rather than later.
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It was just a joke, Wilshire. :)
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Madness: you suggested TUC might work better as two books? Is this from a publisher's standpoint (i.e. reduced costs) or more of a feeling based on the book's internal structure? 300,000 words isn't that huge a word count IMO.
Also -- though you've sort of answered this question - does TUC definitely wrap up the conflicts introduced in the prior two volumes, so that if this is the last TSA book, it would be relatively satisfactory from a fan's perspective?
Finally, is it action-packed (like WLW) or more slow-burn (like TJE)?
I understand if you don't feel comfortable being precise on these questions. Thank you for giving us some tidbits to masticate... it's been a long wait.
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Awesome stuff, Madness.
Do we get confirmation about whether the Circumfixion miracle of the heart was accomplished by mundane, arcane or divine means?
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Finally, is it action-packed (like WLW) or more slow-burn (like TJE)?
Sorry, but, you thought TJE was a slow-burn? I thought it was one of the fastest past novels in the series.
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I actually feel somewhat guilty that anyone took my jape from the other board seriously.
And as much as I appreciate that Madness is getting an early peak, I do not want to know the answer to too many of these questions. I'm content to wait for most of it.
Well, things like length and style and whatnot are cool, but I don't really want to know the infodump details or major plot specifics.
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Nah. Spoilers are the way to go.
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Nah. Spoilers are the way to go.
Negative
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Nah. Spoilers are the way to go.
Negative
Madness will guard his spoilers, regardless of how any feels.
As for me, I haven't read the answers. The only thing I really want to know is: what is the official release date. And that one, at least, remains unknown.
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Finally, is it action-packed (like WLW) or more slow-burn (like TJE)?
Sorry, but, you thought TJE was a slow-burn? I thought it was one of the fastest past novels in the series.
2/3rds of TJE was basically setup, with the only extended action sequence being the moriaesque descent by the Skin Eaters and co. Not that there is anything wrong with that, by 'slow burn' I mean saving the action until the second half and/or last third. I compare this with WLW, where action beats were more spread out and numerous.
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That makes sense. I guess between the two its more of a slow burn, but I always felt the first book was the slowest (and potentially my favorite, though hard to say).
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That makes sense. I guess between the two its more of a slow burn, but I always felt the first book was the slowest (and potentially my favorite, though hard to say).
I agree... TDTCB is the slowest, and probably my favorite, overall.
Given that Bakker is midlist (hopefully still), what about that expanded appendix? I've told him on his blog to initiate a simple paypal account or something; perhaps he could release it on his website and make some pure-profit coin to boot.
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That would be sweet. I'd support that for sure.
Unfortunately I bet he has some kind of exclusivity deal with his publishers, so for a certain period of time he isn't allowed to sell/publish any works by any means other than through Overlook.
Under the table cash transactions anyone? All we need is a courier system, Madness can be our point man who exchanges the cash for the goods. From there we'll identify a trusted chain of people until its dispersed enough so the IRS doesn't flag anyone's paypal accounts. Keep withdraws/deposits under $200 a day, $1000 a week. ...
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Thanks for the sneak peek Madness! Can't wait!
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Really enjoyed reading it. Thanks Madness and thanks RSB for giving us a peek. I agree with Trisk that I don't want many details. Knowing that there's some really fantastic stuff here and knowing that its close (relatively speaking) is sufficient for me.
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have the publishers include a QR code in the book which you can redeem for your choice of ebook format for the encyclopedia. And then also offer the encyclopedia for sale.
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Madness:
1) will we see a great deal of Golgotterath in this final book? I guess we will, but I ask just the same
2) any explanation on this book about why Aurang looked like a human the first time he met Esmenet?
3) Is it explained who the hell burned the White Ships in Neleost?
4) is there any connection between the Outside/the Gods and the concept of Faërian Drama as exposed by Tolkien, maybe transposed on a digital/cybernetic level? Since there is a diaeresis/umlaut, "Faërian" is at least supposed to be a word favoured by Bakker.
5) Is the word apocalypse to be intended as in its original greek meaning, aka as a Revelation? Is TUC a colossal Revelation on the real ontology/metaphysics of Eärwa?
Ok, I've written enough bullshit to fill a cargo
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I definitely voiced the thought that it would benefit from being split up into two books.
ARGH.
You had one job.
Also, wtf is TSTSBN? The Second Thought Shortly Before Now?
(wasn't this forum the one that came up a couple of years ago? I thought I was already registered but can't even find the few posts I made)
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I definitely voiced the thought that it would benefit from being split up into two books.
ARGH.
You had one job.
Also, wtf is TSTSBN? The Second Thought Shortly Before Now?
(wasn't this forum the one that came up a couple of years ago? I thought I was already registered but can't even find the few posts I made)
TSTSNBN = The Series That Shall Not Be Named
It is the only way Bakker has ever referenced the series he plans to write after the conclusion of Aspect-Emperor.
We have been through several iterations of this forum, including domaine changes, server changes, format changes, etc. It is entirely possible that your old account got lost in there somewhere. Sorry about that. Glad you found your way back.
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So I thought I'd give people a couple days...
Hey Madness. Without revealing any names... is there anyone/anything whom we think is dead that turns out alive or vice versa?
I feel like the thread has vetoed an answer, even if I would have considered that one (and Wilshire's right, I wouldn't - it's so much easier to fan the flames of ambiguity by writing this non-answer ;)).
Madness: you suggested TUC might work better as two books? Is this from a publisher's standpoint (i.e. reduced costs) or more of a feeling based on the book's internal structure? 300,000 words isn't that huge a word count IMO.
As I wrote... even with insight, I absolutely do not understand how publishing works. It makes me nervous for anything that I would like to write and distribute in the future.
My commentary was based on the fact that I don't understand publishing. I felt the story would benefit from more words in some parts - I mean, much of my mid-wifery itself was simply offering my perspective on certain instances of clarity/ambiguity so Bakker can play that line however he chooses - but another part is simply that I want more Bakker. I wanted to read more about certain things, I wanted him to spend more words, if possible, spend more time on the epic moments (so essentially this turned into "is it possible to make this two books?" but again, I know absolutely nothing about the "publishing threshold" for wordcounts)...
Also -- though you've sort of answered this question - does TUC definitely wrap up the conflicts introduced in the prior two volumes, so that if this is the last TSA book, it would be relatively satisfactory from a fan's perspective?
There is no question to me about TSTSNBN. Bakker doesn't have a choice in the matter. To be succinct, as a fan and a friend, I'm very happy that completing TAE would feel complete for Bakker who then satisfies certain life-long ambitions in terms of story-writing. But TSTSNBN needs to happen for the fans.
Don't go Herbert on us, Bakker... as much as there are a number of us here who have volunteered ourselves for the writing-conglomerate that will try and purchase and complete the story.
If the entirety of The Second Apocalypse is accomplished, Bakker will have truly introduced another piece of magic fabric to our human quilt.
Finally, is it action-packed (like WLW) or more slow-burn (like TJE)?
I understand if you don't feel comfortable being precise on these questions. Thank you for giving us some tidbits to masticate... it's been a long wait.
Common', ian :). This is Earwa. It's the climax of TAE. Shit hits the fan.
Awesome stuff, Madness.
Do we get confirmation about whether the Circumfixion miracle of the heart was accomplished by mundane, arcane or divine means?
Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, unJon ;).
That makes sense. I guess between the two its more of a slow burn, but I always felt the first book was the slowest (and potentially my favorite, though hard to say).
I agree... TDTCB is the slowest, and probably my favorite, overall.
Given that Bakker is midlist (hopefully still), what about that expanded appendix? I've told him on his blog to initiate a simple paypal account or something; perhaps he could release it on his website and make some pure-profit coin to boot.
have the publishers include a QR code in the book which you can redeem for your choice of ebook format for the encyclopedia. And then also offer the encyclopedia for sale.
Both real cool ideas. Again, I have little-to-no understanding as to how the publisher's dictation affects the process. I think it would be interesting to see the fans patronize the Expanded Encyclopaedia.
Madness:
1) will we see a great deal of Golgotterath in this final book? I guess we will, but I ask just the same
2) any explanation on this book about why Aurang looked like a human the first time he met Esmenet?
3) Is it explained who the hell burned the White Ships in Neleost?
4) is there any connection between the Outside/the Gods and the concept of Faërian Drama as exposed by Tolkien, maybe transposed on a digital/cybernetic level? Since there is a diaeresis/umlaut, "Faërian" is at least supposed to be a word favoured by Bakker.
5) Is the word apocalypse to be intended as in its original greek meaning, aka as a Revelation? Is TUC a colossal Revelation on the real ontology/metaphysics of Eärwa?
Ok, I've written enough bullshit to fill a cargo
Gorgorotterath, welcome back. I haven't read On Fairy-Stories in a long time. I'm probably going to revisit it in light of your commentary. And I'm not sure that Bakker intended the "apokalypsis" association but it is apt metaphor for the series entire, not necessarily your thought specifically (but take that as a non-answer ;)).
I definitely voiced the thought that it would benefit from being split up into two books.
ARGH.
You had one job.
Also, wtf is TSTSBN? The Second Thought Shortly Before Now?
(wasn't this forum the one that came up a couple of years ago? I thought I was already registered but can't even find the few posts I made)
Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, Abalieno. It's so nice to see familiar names. I searched and there are absolutely quoted posts from your original account at the Forumer Second Apocalypse (which was the free version of this forum). The search isn't great at picking up the quoted portions of the forum (though maybe you only have a couple posts). I manually quoted the entirety of v1, though, so I assure you your original contribution is still here. The accounts didn't carry from v1 to v2, unfortunately - all the posts from v1, though still organized as originally posted, are under the moniker What Came Before.
Lol - what was my one job?
As a fan and an aspiring writer, there was no way I was going to counsel Bakker to rush deliver. Nor do I care if I don't get the conclusion that I want to the series... because that sounds incoherent. I would much rather that the story is told as best as Bakker can tell it. Otherwise, I think I explained my thoughts fairly clearly to ivance up-post.
Cheers all.
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Sales need to go up so they publish this already. 2015 is far far away in a galaxy even further away. I need this yesterday, this story needs to be published now. Give the man everything he needs so he can start TSTSNBN already while we speculate about the ending of tAE.
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you had one job and you fucked it up. If we are punished with two books where there were once one, forcing all of us to wait even fucking LONGER we will subject you to the Agonies.
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Sales need to go up so they publish this already. 2015 is far far away in a galaxy even further away. I need this yesterday, this story needs to be published now. Give the man everything he needs so he can start TSTSNBN already while we speculate about the ending of tAE.
+1
you had one job and you fucked it up. If we are punished with two books where there were once one, forcing all of us to wait even fucking LONGER we will subject you to the Agonies.
You know not of what you speak :).
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Punished with 2 books? I don't know about you, but at least for me, the more books the better.
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it's not the content or the volume that matters, it's the fucking waiting. Two books equals more years waiting to find out.
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it's not the content or the volume that matters, it's the fucking waiting. Two books equals more years waiting to find out.
Lol... I don't even really know how to respond to this? To be honest, I'm not quite sure this is supposed to be serious?
"it's not the content or the volume that matters"
What?
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Not about content or volume? Lol. That's the whole thing, isnt it? Just print out a piece of paper that says "the end" and slap The Unholy Consult on the top. At least you wouldn't have to wait, right?
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
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I've gotten to points where I didn't really like what I was reading/watching anymore but I felt like I invested so much time that I just wanted to see "the end".(Lost and ASOIAF mostly) When something is really good though the speculation and the re-reads while waiting for the next volume are probably better than the initial read to me. I do have the tendency to miss things in my haste to get to the end on my first reads too though.
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I grok you, Zadok...
However, I have to wonder where this misconception that we're "nearing the end" has come from. Considering that TSTSNBN concludes The Second Apocalypse, TUC would put us at two thirds through...
If Bakker's readership is simply waiting for the series to end, at this point, I'd say my efforts (like running a forum, promoting a book series, TSACast, etc, etc) (not to mention, Bakker's in writing the series at all) are too little, too late... basically pointless, neh?
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I think the idea of "the end" comes from one of his interviews, something about TUC being the end of the story he originally conceptualized all those years ago.
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I think the idea of "the end" comes from one of his interviews, something about TUC being the end of the story he originally conceptualized all those years ago.
That's the impression I always had before I started reading some of these threads. I had heard about the possible third trilogy but I thought "The Second Apocalypse" would be finished after the next book.
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I believe the whole series was always going to be 3 parts. Prince of Nothing, Aspect Emperor, and TSTSNBN (the series that shall not be named).
PoN and AE are trilogies, and the last I heard, TSTSNBN was originally planned to be a duology but will more likely be a trilogy, but its all called "The Second Apocalypse" up to and including TSTSNBN. Or so goes my understanding.
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I believe the whole series was always going to be 3 parts. Prince of Nothing, Aspect Emperor, and TSTSNBN (the series that shall not be named).
PoN and AE are trilogies, and the last I heard, TSTSNBN was originally planned to be a duology but will more likely be a trilogy, but its all called "The Second Apocalypse" up to and including TSTSNBN. Or so goes my understanding.
Same. I think that one Bakker blog post was misconstrued slightly by fans to mean "the end of the series", whereas it really meant "getting to the point where all the pieces he wanted in play, ARE in play). The series really has been one long, slow revelation of layers. Dunyain, Three Seas Politics, the Inchoroi, the Outside/Gods, and the Nonmen. I suspect there's at least one more big piece we don't know about.
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I'm not sure how I came by my assumptions, maybe because he couldn't say anything about the third series I thought it would take place in the same world but not necessarily be directly connected to the first two.
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I thought that the next book would provide satisfying closure to this trilogy, and the series as a whole, even if stuff is left ambiguous and open ended. Like the first time I read TTT I had no idea that it was just the conclusion to the first trilogy of a larger series, and even though I was surprised and dismayed somewhat that the overarching Consult story was unresolved, I still felt that I had read a complete and satisfying story.
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I'm not sure how I came by my assumptions, maybe because he couldn't say anything about the third series I thought it would take place in the same world but not necessarily be directly connected to the first two.
I think it will probably be set in Earwa, but with another time jump, probably larger than what we saw from TTT to JE. I have no basis for this conclusion.
I thought that the next book would provide satisfying closure to this trilogy, and the series as a whole, even if stuff is left ambiguous and open ended. Like the first time I read TTT I had no idea that it was just the conclusion to the first trilogy of a larger series, and even though I was surprised and dismayed somewhat that the overarching Consult story was unresolved, I still felt that I had read a complete and satisfying story.
I agree, and I think TUC will end up being similar. Bakker had built Earwa with thousands of years of history, and I could easily see him writing whole series about characters/places/species that we have barely even seen, but that are directly or indirectly connected to some larger story. The possibilities are endless, and if he makes enough money with TUC and/or whatever else he writes in the next few years, I think we could be reading TSA books until the man dies.
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I think the idea of "the end" comes from one of his interviews, something about TUC being the end of the story he originally conceptualized all those years ago.
That's the impression I always had before I started reading some of these threads. I had heard about the possible third trilogy but I thought "The Second Apocalypse" would be finished after the next book.
I believe the whole series was always going to be 3 parts. Prince of Nothing, Aspect Emperor, and TSTSNBN (the series that shall not be named).
PoN and AE are trilogies, and the last I heard, TSTSNBN was originally planned to be a duology but will more likely be a trilogy, but its all called "The Second Apocalypse" up to and including TSTSNBN. Or so goes my understanding.
Since Zombie Three-Seas that has been the understanding (and this is as Bakker was writing PON) - though, I want to suggest that Bakker thought TAE was also going to be two books at one time.
I believe the whole series was always going to be 3 parts. Prince of Nothing, Aspect Emperor, and TSTSNBN (the series that shall not be named).
PoN and AE are trilogies, and the last I heard, TSTSNBN was originally planned to be a duology but will more likely be a trilogy, but its all called "The Second Apocalypse" up to and including TSTSNBN. Or so goes my understanding.
Same. I think that one Bakker blog post was misconstrued slightly by fans to mean "the end of the series", whereas it really meant "getting to the point where all the pieces he wanted in play, ARE in play).
I agree.
I thought that the next book would provide satisfying closure to this trilogy, and the series as a whole, even if stuff is left ambiguous and open ended. Like the first time I read TTT I had no idea that it was just the conclusion to the first trilogy of a larger series, and even though I was surprised and dismayed somewhat that the overarching Consult story was unresolved, I still felt that I had read a complete and satisfying story.
I actually read PON twice under that illusion, kellykellhus. It was awesome. I couldn't believe what an audacious fuck the author was, hinting at this crazy bigger story that never happened...
But to the bold, I think there will be a satisfying resolution to TAE as TAE. However, again, I need to know what happens in TSTSNBN.
The possibilities are endless, and if he makes enough money with TUC and/or whatever else he writes in the next few years, I think we could be reading TSA books until the man dies.
I know he's talked over the years about writing a prequel to TDTCB to make the series more approachable (which I think should just be about the internecine warfare in the Three-Seas - like when Istriya-for-reals ruled the Nansur Empire, for instance).
And then there are also comments of doing a Cuno-Inchoroi War standalone (which would never end up being a standalone ;)) and a First Apocalypse standalone.
I agree, Wilshire, I mean, I want to read other kinds of titles by Bakker (particularly a straight up space-opera!!!) but I would also enjoy him writing Earwa books till he dies.
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It's funny but I find that the question that I most want to know the answer to is whether DA, when he is next in AK's presence, will he kneel?
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It's funny but I find that the question that I most want to know the answer to is whether DA, when he is next in AK's presence, will he kneel?
Yes, over AK's dying body, who then starts asking some rather strange and inquisitive questions about himself...
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Thought about it a bit, and I think there is no point in carefully selecting questions in order to receive coy deflections.
No criticism, simply that carefully thought out questions are a real danger of revealing 'too much'...
So instead, I would challenge Madness to deliver a blurb, such as we might read on the back of the book or the amazon store page.
One thing I might hope for would be a hint as to whether we can expect to see the Ordeal will progress further than Dagliash, much as the WLW blurb begins with;
"As AK and his Great ordeal march ever further into the wastes of the Ancient North..."
- hinting that the volume will chronicle their journey and leave us short of the destination.
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Hmm... I will bend my mind towards that, perhaps. It might be more like the second paragraphs of such blurbs... Like the impression blurb? I'm not sure how to do a content blurb without it being a spoiler bonanza.
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I'm not sure how to do a content blurb without it being a spoiler bonanza.
Well, you can always use spoiler tags.
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spoiler bonanza.
dont want no spoilt bananas
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I'll second the request for a synopsis as Madness would author it.
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I'm not sure how to do a content blurb without it being a spoiler bonanza.
Well, you can always use spoiler tags.
Do please put the whole thing in a spoiler tag if you do so.
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Is there any truth to the rumour the last words are "...and they all lived happily forever." ?
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Hey locke! I really like your starting post. You really had me ensorcelled with the lists of books. :)
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Hey locke! I really like your starting post. You really had me ensorcelled with the lists of books. :)
if you liked it, you should read if on a winter's night a traveler. That's where the text comes from.
All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
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Kudos to you for using it! I haven't read a lot of Calvino, but I will make sure to read this one.
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mrganondorf: are there any humorous parts in TUC?
Madness: There is one in particular right near the end. Without releasing any spoilers, I can say that it involves a conversation between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys.'
mrganondorf: that's great! do we learn any more about the ursranc?
Madness: Yes, but I can't say a lot because they are semi-important to the plot.
mrganondorf: are there any sexy bits?
Madness: Beyond the obvious, I cannot say anything about this topic? It's fucking cosmic.
mrganondorf: obvious? cosmic?
Madness: Well it's obvious that Ishterebinth is going to have some Nonman on Nonman lovin, but I can't say anything about 'cosmic."
mrganondorf: Do we find out about the Heron Spear?
Madness: Surprisingly no, this question is emphatically bumped off till the next series.
mrganondorf: woah!
Madness: Yeah, I was surprised.
mrganondorf: one final question, is this all in my head?
Madness: Yes, MG, you are talking to yourself. The real Madness would never let out such awful teasers.
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Madness: But I can't really say anymore about it.
sologdin: does leweth return?
Madness: Yes. He is very important for the middle three-sevenths of the book.
sologdin: is he a cannibal?
Madness: Can't really say.
sologdin: is he a walking topoi?
Madness: That's a dumb question. No offense.
sologdin: does lew have the gnosis?
Madness: I can't tell about the gnosis.
sologdin: how much is he involved with AI black semen?
Madness: If you think that I will spoil that, then you are crazier than a shithouse rat.
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Madness, now that you've read all the books, could you list them out in order by which you like most?
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LMAO. Leweth and the Tabby team up to save Earwa.
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lew is shot through a wormhole and joins up with escaped criminals from a living inchie prison ship such as a genetically enhanced tabby cat, a gnostic sorcerer head-in-a-jar, a rogue bashrag with a heart of gold, and a supermodel with green skin who happens to be the best swordsperson in the galaxy. together, they return to earwa and execute every last motherfucker up in here.
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WOW :)
"bashrag with a heart of gold" LOL
This is the rewrite that brings us The Unholy Consult, the Movie.
Put Kellhus in for comic relief. He'll be turning up at odd moments, like when Seswatha and Yatwer make love, and spouting his catch phrase "I am Dunyain, one of the Conditioned!"
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You people are awesome.
Madness, now that you've read all the books, could you list them out in order by which you like most?
I'm doing a pleasurable and immersive re-read while I'm being world-slapped. So give me a week or so and I'll let you know my thoughts.
Content aside (which automatically seems to make the latest edition of a series like this most enjoyable as it's most revealing), I think that Bakker is still reaching his peak of writerly balance. I don't think he's plateaued yet.
But in rereading, I'm struck again about how much I love TDTCB as it's own book. It's so different from everything that comes after and yet it's deliciously layered (which, I think, might make or break the series in it's culmination because no matter how strong his writing to come is, TDTCB and it's initial writing may be the hook around which the series hangs - good thing he took 15+ years putting in work).
The Xerius vs. Maithanet struggle is so awesome. And obviously in hindsight, the whole tale takes on a completely different flavour. It literally is not the story you are reading the first time through.
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does that mean that lew does in fact return with a gang of farscaped criminals?
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In rereading, I realize that might have been an ambiguous post for this thread. But, of course, in the hopes of misleading, take from it what you will. After all, you and MG have already best figured how get teasings from me :P.
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Any comment on the “Nail of Heaven” Madness?
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EVERYONE, MADNESS LET IT SLIP: XERIUS VS MAITHANET IS KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE UNHOLY CONSULT!!!
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Hmm. I'm attempting to summarize a few points here, but I don't have the time to go hunt the little bits that are relevant.
For now I got one:
It is almost exactly 300 000 words as it stands.
Yes, but I can’t really comment on them. TUC wraps all the arcs established through the series thus far – brings me to the end of my original story idea, way back when. If I were to keel over tomorrow, the mortician would have to use forceps and wire to wipe the shit-eating grin from my face.
1- 300k words, or 350, or even 400 shouldn't motivate a split in two books. That's why, regardless of the volume of stuff, Bakker should push as much as he can to do all of it in one volume.
2- The hype here is about Bakker playing his hand. For years he teased some big splash. Regardless of sequels past TUC what we expect is that he plays his hand fully, instead of keeping hiding it. So this plays a role in how the book will be received. It isn't much about "closure" to plotlines. It's about him being generous about the point of the series, instead of just teasing something that never actually comes.
So, it's not much a case of TUC needing to be a "game finisher", and more a case of it being a "game changer".
(add here the blog quote where he says that he's sure TUC will draw attention even from those who don't read him, because the idea behind the whole thing has never been realized, or something along those lines)
The point is: he hyped TUC not as a pleasing book for the fans, but something that is supposed to have a big impact even among those who aren't currently following the series. So it's not about fanservice kind of stuff, and more about revealing this hidden hand.
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Where is that quote from?
Anyway, WLW is about 200k words, and thats a hefty book. If its going to be double that size, I think it certainly should be two books. My reasoning is because Overlook sucks. Bakker is a midlist author, and Overlook seems that they couldn't care less about helping Bakker in any way. I think its far, far, more likely that they will tell him that he needs to cut down the book to <250k if it is one book, and that will ruin the story. To me, if the book is can be split into two that are bigger than the 151k words that TJE was, then we as readers will get far more than if he publishes it as one.
For someone like GRRM or Erikson, 400k+ words isn't a big deal, but those are big names with bigger publishers. No one is going to tell GRRM that he can't make a book whatever size he wants, but that situation is worlds away from the situation that Bakker is in. I'm worried that TUC will be shoehorned into some "acceptable" size, and we'll lose a lot of the story.
link for word counts:
http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/1869
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Any comment on the “Nail of Heaven” Madness?
Nothing to tease, Borric. I was asked elsewhere but neglected to answer.
Hmm. I'm attempting to summarize a few points here, but I don't have the time to go hunt the little bits that are relevant.
For now I got one:
It is almost exactly 300 000 words as it stands.
Yes, but I can’t really comment on them. TUC wraps all the arcs established through the series thus far – brings me to the end of my original story idea, way back when. If I were to keel over tomorrow, the mortician would have to use forceps and wire to wipe the shit-eating grin from my face.
1- 300k words, or 350, or even 400 shouldn't motivate a split in two books. That's why, regardless of the volume of stuff, Bakker should push as much as he can to do all of it in one volume.
Why? Seriously, if it's a good argument I still have a chance to influence the man's decision... but I don't understand this request from any fan.
2- The hype here is about Bakker playing his hand. For years he teased some big splash. Regardless of sequels past TUC what we expect is that he plays his hand fully, instead of keeping hiding it. So this plays a role in how the book will be received. It isn't much about "closure" to plotlines. It's about him being generous about the point of the series, instead of just teasing something that never actually comes.
So, it's not much a case of TUC needing to be a "game finisher", and more a case of it being a "game changer".
(add here the blog quote where he says that he's sure TUC will draw attention even from those who don't read him, because the idea behind the whole thing has never been realized, or something along those lines)
The point is: he hyped TUC not as a pleasing book for the fans, but something that is supposed to have a big impact even among those who aren't currently following the series. So it's not about fanservice kind of stuff, and more about revealing this hidden hand.
Again, I don't understand why this should motivate him to release it as one book, instead of two, if he gets the opportunity.
All I can say is that of what I have read, I don't want to see it published as is or, as Wilshire mentions above, worse yet pared down from what is as the publishers make... ridiculous and mass-pleasing decisions in exactly "what to cut" (which, any true fan, should surely be upset by).
EDIT:
I'm worried that TUC will be shoehorned into some "acceptable" size, and we'll lose a lot of the story.
Exactly. I'm worried about the content lost to fans. Bakker should be allowed to tell the story in however many books or words he needs. And I certainly won't counsel him to "release it as one" (against my existing judgment) purely because fans seem to want to read the synopsis of what's to come rather than the book itself.
Strength on the journey. Journey well.
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http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html?m=1
Good time to post this since I'm various stages of inactive.
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Not sure the reply was meant to read cutting things out to make it in one volume as opposed to getting the book how you want it, then if the options are available make it one book rather than two. That was my personal reading.
I don't want any of the story lost due to trying to shoe-horn it into one book. If it is two books i'll just wait this time till both are published then read them together. I'm fine with waiting, been doing it since mid 90's anyway, last 20 years of my life i've been waiting on the next installment in a series.
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Because it is fucking psychotic to suggest splitting a book the length of a game of thrones or a feast for crows into two books. It's either a naked money grab to bilk the handful of fans he has by forcing them to pay double or its just a naked attempt to torment the same handful of fans by withholding the climax.
All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
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@ Abalieno - I like the way you put it:
So, it's not much a case of TUC needing to be a "game finisher", and more a case of it being a "game changer".
That's what I'm hoping for.
In case the publishers are reading this and thinking about the 1 vs 2 volumes issues, I don't give a damn so long as I get the whole story. Please don't shorten the work to make it fit in a smaller format, whatever you do.
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I would rather wait a little longer for it to be a completely polished single volume than wait much longer for a 2nd book in a split.
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Some more of the quotes I dug up that are relevant to me, but I don't have the exact links:
The end of TAE is the end of the tale as I originally conceived it decades ago. All the plot threads from the two trilogies are cinched into a kind of Gordian knot (I fear you’ll have to wait to see what I mean).
I’m something of a pessimist, but for whatever reason I have always had faith in this story – far more so than in my abilities as a writer. Everyone once in a while some day-dreaming fool is gifted with the image of something genuinely iconic. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure this is as close as I’ll ever get.
The Second Apocalypse is big, so big that the narrative and thematic dimensions only come into collective focus here and there.
"a kind of Lovecraftian code that I could upload into the collective mainframe"
Here’s hoping. People like what people like, and I’m trolling many difficult themes, so I think any kind of mass commercial success is a longshot. But this story… It is just too fucked up not gain some kind of notoriety, I think.
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Again, I don't understand why this should motivate him to release it as one book, instead of two, if he gets the opportunity.
I do not mean that the book should be cut to fit an arbitrary size.
I mean he should pressure the publisher as much as possible because IT IS POSSIBLE to publish 400k books. Add more lines on the page and you suddenly decrease the pagecount by 200 or more.
If the book is complete at 300k, then I'd say he should be able to edit and make the best thing at, say 350k at most?
350k = roughly 800 pages. It's not the end of the world.
If it's 300k it can comfortably squeeze in 700 pages or so.
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Because it is fucking psychotic to suggest splitting a book the length of a game of thrones or a feast for crows into two books. It's either a naked money grab to bilk the handful of fans he has by forcing them to pay double or its just a naked attempt to torment the same handful of fans by withholding the climax.
All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
You're always so vehement, I love it. One man's psychotic is another man's sane.
Like I said, yes, there is no reason that it has to be two books. The link I posted shows word counts well over 300k and even 400k for many popular books. However, in the real world, things aren't so cut and dry. His publishers are shitty. Bakker isn't successful.
If its a choice between cutting content or two books, I'd pick two every time.
If its a choice between one big book and two small ones, both with the same content, one would certainly be better.
If they would be the same and Bakker/publisher want to make more money, I honestly wouldn't be upset.
Everyone's gotta make a living, and I'm far more willing to support someone like Bakker doing a money grab than someone like GRRM, or JK Rowling. My reasoning is that those two are rich, and don't need more money, and Bakker is not and could use it. Is that reasoning biased? Yes. But I'm not trying to convince anyone else to think that way.
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Because it is fucking psychotic to suggest splitting a book the length of a game of thrones or a feast for crows into two books. It's either a naked money grab to bilk the handful of fans he has by forcing them to pay double or its just a naked attempt to torment the same handful of fans by withholding the climax.
All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
If its a choice between cutting content or two books, I'd pick two every time.
If its a choice between one big book and two small ones, both with the same content, one would certainly be better.
If they would be the same and Bakker/publisher want to make more money, I honestly wouldn't be upset.
Pretty much this, although less keen on lining publishers pockets over writers.
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Lol yes, but I haven't found a way to buy books directly from Bakker yet.
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I wonder if Bakker could short stories straight from his own website, like this, but not on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Chuck-Palahniuk-ebook/dp/B00LLO83IK/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405052863&sr=1-3&keywords=chuck+palahniuk+phoenix
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Hey Madness- thanks for answering the questions -- one more...
You floated the idea of two books because you feel there were sections that perhaps needed more attention / more detail. Is there a natural place in TUC for this split to happen? In other words, is the book structured so that there could be a split and it would work to the overall advantage of the series?
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Hey Madness- thanks for answering the questions -- one more...
You floated the idea of two books because you feel there were sections that perhaps needed more attention / more detail. Is there a natural place in TUC for this split to happen? In other words, is the book structured so that there could be a split and it would work to the overall advantage of the series?
I second this! Would like to know...
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Hey Madness- thanks for answering the questions -- one more...
You floated the idea of two books because you feel there were sections that perhaps needed more attention / more detail. Is there a natural place in TUC for this split to happen? In other words, is the book structured so that there could be a split and it would work to the overall advantage of the series?
I honestly don't know. As far as I recall, TAE long ago was only going to be two books. I remember Bakker commenting following both publications of TJE and WLW and suggesting that in each case he had simply lined up the threads as best he could and chopped them off at what he thought were suitable cliffhangers. I suppose he'll manage something like that again, if he has too. It seems to have worked out for him so far, in my opinion.
Again, personally, I'm not going to be upset if he can flesh out more story for us. I think a major dividend for us is that Bakker has, alledgely, had an exact end-game for The Second Apocalypse for a long time. So he's prone to much less meandering than other authors (and again, this whole opinion by me was simply shaped by greed - I wanted him to spend more words, explaining certain things, colouring certain aspects).
There is an overload of revelations, after all.
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Madness, can you confirm or deny: the Inchoroi on Earwa are the last of their kind in the universe, or just the last from the Ark/on that planet?
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Question -- although there is no Kelly POV, do we at least get some sort of clue as to his 'shortest path?'
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Say Madness, do we get more info on Earwan drugs?
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Oh.... I just found about this juicy thread. Very interesting.
Only two things Madness: I don't mind more exposition. Exposition= more information = greater apprehension. But in your honest opinion, is the exposition mechanism of TUC delivered and articulated in an organic and non-clunky way?
Also, is there more of Iyokus? Simple yea or nay. I mean, he was a pretty important secondary character in PON and the Blind Necromancer seems too important to just be with the Great Ordeal, get about ONE line of dialogue in WLW... and then die at Dagliash. There's got to be more.
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Dear Madness :
Here is a good, answerable question that won't betray anyone's trust I think :
Does TUC offer any answers or clarifications re : the significant Theodicy problem in the Bakkerverse.
It certainly stands out to me that despite cleaving closer to Paganism, which has easier answers to the problem of Theodicy (Yo guess what? The Gods ain't perfect and frankly they are kinda douchebags) - we have pagan style Gods with a significantly "higher theology" than the pagan Gods with corporeal bodies and fallible non-omniscient minds.
For philosophy geeks I'm hoping there isn't some cheap Leibniz-style cum Pangloss gloss on why his Gods seem significantly worse than the astonishingly appalling God(s) of the Levantine semi-monotheistic traditions.
(I know characterizing Leibniz's philosophy as Panglossian really isn't fair, but I'm sure you guys get my drift. This is TSA, not Westeros after all.)
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(I know characterizing Leibniz's philosophy as Panglossian really isn't fair, but I'm sure you guys get my drift. This is TSA, not Westeros after all.)
I love Dr. Pangloss.
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(I know characterizing Leibniz's philosophy as Panglossian really isn't fair, but I'm sure you guys get my drift. This is TSA, not Westeros after all.)
I love Dr. Pangloss.
Lol, I know whom I'd rather have a beer with.
Unfortunately, the fictional and satirical nature of Dr. Pangloss the cheerful Galley Slave earns him a bad rap as a scholarly epithet.
Meanwhile, as co-discoverer of "The Calculus", Leibniz gets way more street cred than he deserves with his "an infinite being can only create a finite universe" -- Seriously? You'd think a man who apprehended the anti-derivative would do better than that.
We need to understand him in the context of a world where there simply weren't many options for even the most rational and secular minded individual.
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Maybe Leibniz was just in the wrong genre, should have written speculative fiction. He gets mentioned in a recent erb, the one with Weird Al:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yis7GzlXNM
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Hi Madness. Two non-spoilerish questions. Do you know if the book will include any new maps? And more importantly, do we get the meaning of the word "xurjranc"?
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Where does that word appear?
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When the Inchoroi appears at the end of TWP,
Effortlessly, the Xurjranc snapped Valrissa’s tether, and hoisted her before him, held her as though she were a doll. Bengulla shrieked,
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Is that from TTT appendix? I guess that's been bothering you for a while then :P
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It's referring to Aurax from the POV of the captured Werigda chieftan. My guess would be that it's just their name for the Inchoroi.
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Or something akin to monster, alien, demon, etc. It just raises more questions if they have an actual name for Inchoroi in their tongue. Do they get visited often? For what purpose?
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Right before that part he mistakes him for the No-God so it's unlikely they've seen them in a long time but if stories of "The Great Ruiner" have been passed down through the generations it's possible they also have stories/had contact with the Inchoroi in the past.
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I think the end of TWP is great, but I find it hard to believe that those people have been out there so long!
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Say Madness, are there any questions you haven't been asked yet that you would like to be asked?
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Madness, I've been telling a lot of folks that there will definitely be more dragons in TUC---that's right ain't it?
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Well, at least Wutteat is bound to make a reappearance.
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It would be amazing if Wutteat was our POV into Golgotterath.
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Wutteat shows up at the Ark weapon Wracu tears because the world still lives...
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@ FB - super-dooper--wutteat watches the final confrontation! hateful and unwilling to help shae, maybe wutteat helps kellhus in the end...
@ Triskele - i am having trooble parsing what you said... :(
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Weapon should be weepin' (?). Makes sense that way. :)
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Weapon should be weepin' (?). Makes sense that way. :)
Haha, whoops.
Weeping is indeed the word I meant to use.
I just totally see a post-battle Wutteat finding his way back to the Ark and needing to be consoled by Aurax because the World yet lives.
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Not sure where to put this news, so I'll drop it here
http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/post-title/
Massimiliano Izzo
Great to hear the news, Scott.
I must admit I’m mostly interested in The Aspect Emperor draft (I’ve noticed you haven’t called it The Unholy Consult, does it mean you’re to change the title or split the book?), but I will gladly read the short story. Just the perfect starter to whet my appetite. And I’m also corious about the Brain Book which looks to be a hefty tome.
It’s a long way…I keep on following you along it.
Permalink, Reply
October 3, 2014 6:10 am
rsbakker
Thanks, Massimiliano. No decisions have been made on whether the tome will be divided or not. If so, the first will be called The Great Ordeal, and the second, The Unholy Consult. I say Aspect-Emperor because no matter how it’s packaged, the series is done. And I think it will please… hope…
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That's so weird, I thought he hated that title when it was the stand-in name for The Judging Eye, now it's okay for TUC pt. 1?
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Timing matters i guess.
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Would it be useful to ask him whether the rest of the preview chapter is coming out in the near future or not?
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I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to ask. It seems you never know what questions he will answer.
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@ Triskele lol! Auto-correct makes me maid
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Hi Madness. I forgot to ask, does Theliopa do anything worthy of note in the next book?
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Theli is going to kick ass, i know it! she's got this whole elaborate front worked up just so the mask can come off at the right time! SHE IS AJOKLI