Excerpt - The Unholy Consult, Chapter One

  • 191 Replies
  • 115814 Views

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:08 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Hope I didn't sound too bitchy, I was just hoping for more discussion of the meat in this excerpt, guess that makes me greedy. :(

Does anyone else think that Shaeonanra, as we see him here, represents a self moving soul?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:14 am »
Quote from: Li'l Mog
On the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?

Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone, how can he actually be a threat? How can what’s left have a mind or cast spells? If Shaeonanra continues to exist without memories, how can he seek to avoid damnation? Is there something else, some essential Shaeonanra-ness that survives in the empty soul?

Also, does it strike anybody as significant that Mimara asks her question regarding soul trapping in the way she does? “But isn't soul trapping an ancient art?”

Also, do we have the Inchoroi’s name for themselves? Iyisku? Or is this just a term of reverence the Consult uses? Can anybody recall if it shows up anywhere else?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:22 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
To assume meat always seems to make raw assumption. Sadly the works enforce a kind of stunned silence!

Also westeros forumites basically 'follow the conversation' alot of people post to be in a conversation because that comes first - the excerpt is simply a means to the end of conversing. So you get alot of comments.

Anyway, I'm surprised at the 'How's he doing?' part - doesn't seem a bibilical line of phrase. Maybe that's something about Mimara, but then Akka follows up with some lol. I guess it imbeds the modern into the biblical and the biblical into the modern. I guess space aliens jarred me at first as well, too!

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:28 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Li'l Mog
On the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?

Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone,
I didn't read that as applying to him - he's spread across living human individuals, not tied up in a rag doll? Did I read wrong?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:34 am »
Quote from: Sideris
It's inspired me to actually log in for once since I left a few months ago, Madness. Excellent work, I hope to see more in the near future. Can't wait for the book.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:40 am »
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, Sideris. I've missed the Monocle Shark.

Considering the forum is only a few months old, you likely haven't been away that long. But welcome back.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:46 am »
Quote from: Madness
Thought: How likely is it that the Dunyain kept a genealogical record?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2013, 06:43:53 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
I presume they have to, memory is fallible, is it not?  And Kellhus was able to read the runes on the stele, so the Dunyain have a form of writing similar to the ancient Kuniuric that Kellhus was able to read with some effort.  I presume that Leweth didn't teach him how to read nor how to read ancient Kuniuric, but maybe he did, that mysterious hermit knew a hell of a lot.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:01 am »
Quote from: bbaztek
(click to show/hide)

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:09 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Li'l Mog
On the subject of souls being divisible, is that what we’re seeing in the dream though?

Achamian speaks of the memories, faculty and character of the soul being torn out and cast into the Outside, tormented there. But is he being literal? If so, and everything that made Shaeonanra himself is now gone, how can he actually be a threat? How can what’s left have a mind or cast spells? If Shaeonanra continues to exist without memories, how can he seek to avoid damnation? Is there something else, some essential Shaeonanra-ness that survives in the empty soul?

Also, does it strike anybody as significant that Mimara asks her question regarding soul trapping in the way she does? “But isn't soul trapping an ancient art?”

Also, do we have the Inchoroi’s name for themselves? Iyisku? Or is this just a term of reverence the Consult uses? Can anybody recall if it shows up anywhere else?

Yes I think he was literal, or at least as literal as one can be when describing something intangible like a soul. However I feel like there was more to the description of this than you think. Though the way wathi dolls are made removes memories and personality, and is an ancient art, the way Shae came to be is something else entirely. I believe the descriptions all point to the fact that it was have taken a tremendous effort, and lots experimentation of course, in order to rip a soul such that the memories and intellect where maintained. This is the mystery of the consult. That they could survive separately from their original bodies, half their soul being tortured in the outside, while keeping a (almost) sane portion of the soul intact on Earwa.

This is what makes Shae and the consult dangerous. If they found out a way to preserve soul and intellect indefinatly, without the compounding complications of time that the nonmen experience, then they would be far from nearly defeated. In fact, quite the opposite, the passing of time would only make them grow stronger. Perhaps they could even transfer their soul into multiple bodies simultaneously, making an army of warrior magi controlled by one intellect. Or, considering the issues surrounding the gods ineptitude of various things, make an army of intellects with partial souls, therefore partially (or fully) concealing them from the gods.

On the Inchori, I don't have my copy of TTT with me, but it might be a good place to check if you haven't already.
----
Edit
Madness:
A few things. First of all, though I don't know much about genealogy, I have heard that in Iceland, before you marry someone you must undergo a test or two to determine if you are actually related to the person you wish to marry. Though I have no way of knowing the validity of this, it brings up a question about the dunyain. How many of them did they start with? I'd imagine that regardless of size, an enclosed population with a limited gene pool would have trouble surviving without extensive genealogical records. They would be used to prevent or limit incestual relationships, as well as prevent and limiting bad recessive traits from matching up and crippling their population (though they cannot 'breed' without passing the thousand thousand halls test, so this may not be important).

It would also depend on who the Dunyain actually are. If they have some kind of bigger sociopolitical purpose then I could see the possibility of the importance of such records. Like if they are trying to breed specific traits in order to make them a genetic match to nonmen (as some believe) then it would be imperative.

If the Dunyain are simply a cult of quasi-religious fanatics who simply want to attain the Absolute, then perhaps genealogy would not be important.

---
Edit
lockesnow
First, out of curiosity,who is the over king? Was he in the appendix or something?
Anyway, Shae a self moving soul? Can you tell me why you think so and were the text pointed you in this direction?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:16 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
I've no idea who the over king is, Protathis' works all have enigmatic or idiomatic titles.

As for what got me to Shaeonanra being a self-moving soul, several things.

This comes first, to me the language here suggests that Shaeonanra's soul is traveling through a circle of the ten larvae, that he moves from one body to the other in closed loop.  like electric current, but much slower, flowing around and around the circuit.

Quote
Laughter, thin and eerie, passed through the wretches, like the lash through the whip, one rising from the trailing of another.

Later Akka has three conflicting thoughts, he thinks that Shae caught his soul in a net of the wretches fractured souls, but first he thinks of a path deflected, and finally he thinks of a circle, the most perfect conserving form.  The use of conserving makes me think that the way to keep his soul from falling outside was to bend (deflect) the linear path of the soul--from inward to outside--into a circle that stays completely inward so that the soul is conserved.

In a sense this is geometric next step of some of the basic maths we see Shaeonanra use in the false sun.  There Shaeonanra used his Math-Thesis point to disprove the space-filling curve calculus of the Golgotteranth Glamour.  That Math-Thesis point was a representation of a single, one dimensional point.  Next step, a line described by two points.  I would postulate that the path of a soul is described by two points from alpha to omega.  Next step after mathematically figuring out how to describe a soul is to define a circle as a point (center) plus a line.  If you have a protractor, and set your center by drawing a 'straight' line you wind up with a circle--so perhaps Shaeonanra has combined his mathematical understanding of a perfect point, with the understanding of how to draw a soul's path with two perfect points and from this he has devised a circle.  Perhaps Shaeonanra can split souls with incredible perfection by using mathesis points on a soul the way that the mathesis point was used on the glamour--could not a soul be a space filling curve itself?

Quote
He described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.

A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
If the souls of the wretches are devoid of animating passions perhaps the direction of their path can be deflected: if a soul near death is falling outside, perhaps you can't change the direction to the outside but you can deflect it 36 degrees, so put ten souls near death, each deflecting their path 36 degrees, then have your soul follow the path of each of these wretches (and/or tie their paths together) and your soul follows a perfectly conserved circle. 

You're constantly falling outside but you're never going there, because you're only following the deflected bit of the path of each soul.  Your  soul is constantly moving from wretch to wretch along this path, and it's moving because you're willing it.  You're a self-moving soul.  As I mentioned in my other thread, i think this is a bit of irony on Bakker's part, a completely literal self-moving soul.  It's completely different from the pure theory, elegant self-moving soul metaphor of the Dunyain, who try for an abstract, probably unachievable perfection--but then communism in practice is completely different from the pure theory of communism.  When theory becomes practice its often ugly and messy--hence I think this is a bit of a joke.  Shae has achieved success at moving his soul himself, and it is absolutely nothing like what the Dunyain conceive.

And I feel like there's a nod to this in Akka's final thought:

Quote
He sat rigid, his breath pinched by the sense of things converging...

Origin to ending.

What came after to what came before.
The dunyain want to come before what comes before what comes before what comes before what comes before.  Seems fairly circular to me, they're kinda going after a circle end game aren't they?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:25 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
That all seems a strong and viable theory, Locke!

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:31 am »
Quote from: Triskele
Heh - That is a pretty great theory.  If it's not true, I bet you that Bakker himself would find it to be a hilarious idea...that Shae had inelegantly achieved The Mission. 

As impressive as the theory is, my best guess is that there was not actually an intent on Bakker's part to have the irony of Shae and The Consult having achieved the Dunyain mission.  I think it's just a really clever observation on your part.  But we shall see.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 04:38:26 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I figured there would be a complex explanation for your theory, bravo. A lot of that makes sense and I can see now where you got that from. But agreeing makes for short conversations and fewer replies, so here goes:

Based on that definition of 'self-moving' soul I think that Shae is indeed as you say. However, like you kinda mentioned, this isn't really the same thing as what we in the bakkerverse have to think of when we hear the phrase. Shae, it would seem, has eluded death in one way or another, but he has not attained The Absolute. The dunyain definition of a self moving soul and yours above dont match up for me. Though the example of communism I find agreeable, I still think its somehow a different situation.

If you say, for example, that Shae is an immortal, self perpetuating soul, I would probably readily agree. But calling him self-moving is too confusing for me.

Just for fun: a bit more on the circle thing. Why stop at a circle, which requires multiple bodies to deflect his soul to? Why not go further and create a Mobius Strip. That way he could ride his own soul in a closed loop with only one surface, forever turning upon himself, forever changing the vector direction of his soul without crossing over any boundary to the outside. Keeping himself suspended in Earwa while maintaining his evasion of the outside.  Though I haven't the faintest idea of how that would make it better than a circle or how it would be represented, but I thought the idea funny.

One more thin, your description of "falling without going" was how orbit was original explained to me as a child. Basically when you orbit something you are falling towards the object, but you keep missing, and therefore continuously fall without ever getting any closer. This also helps to explain the whole 'no gravity while falling' thing which is can be a rather abstract thing to explain. With that, its like Shae has created a center to orbit around, though in this case he is orbiting the outside, forever falling but never getting any closer to actually going 'into' the outside. I'm stopping here before I confuse myself further.

Circle end game question:
I thought the dunyain's basic principle was that what comes before determines what comes after, and what comes after cannot effect what comes before. This paints the picture of time being a vector rather than a circle, and the dunyain want to find the origin of that vector in order to free themselves from the chain. Though I believe we 'know' that this is an over simplification of the problem, a first approximation if you will. The world is not shut, and after may somehow effect before (mengedda plains among other instances). Kell himself postulated that time may loop upon itself, perhaps this is what happens at a topos. Though I do vaguely remember some discourse on the subject, perhaps from the text, where a circular chain of before and after was discussed, and a The Absolute being a soul that has risen above this chain. Can't remember though.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 04:38:39 pm »
Quote from: Church
Could the soul-splitting  / movement through separate carriers in a specific spiritual-geometric pattern be related to the No-God, perhaps as some kind of pre-cursor/prototype for how that comes into existence? The thing that brought this to mind was the speaking through the corpses, which is pretty similar to the N-G speaking through the Sranc (though admittedly the corpses are speaking one by one, the Sranc all at once). We know from The False Sun that the N-G is already very much in Shae's mind a while back , but is he the one providing the technical know-how to actually create this entity?