I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?
ETA: Madshire, maybe move this post to my original thread on the start of ARC.
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.
To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?
The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.
Fair point. Maybe I'm hurtling along a track where the intended approach was different. Would like to know what others think.I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.
If we're going to have a full-spoiler discussion of the whole series, I think we should add the "[TUC Spoilers]" warning to the title...To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?
The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.
...but if we're going to have this sort of discussion instead, then spoiler warnings won't be needed.
Maybe it would be better to have everyone involved in the reread mention what they prefer?
So, with the forum having been down for a few days, do we discuss the prologue and chapter 1 of TDTCB over this week and keep to the planned schedule, or do we postpone it to next Sunday?
So just carry and do what you guys thinks makes sense, and we'll deal with the moderation side later, per usual. :)
Death and Prophecy of Anasûrimbor Celmomas. Same.
See my face and not S in mirror.
Different. More powerful.
Ink might be immortal, but meaning was not.
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.
Also, as Thelli (Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.
Also, as Thelli (Our resident Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.
Ganrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.My timeline sorcery, as Wilshire put it, makes me really dislike the theory that Celmomas is Ganrelka's uncle. Celmomas was born in 2089. Ganrelka was born 15 years later in 2104. Celmomas was the High King and Ganrelka his heir, so it doesn't make sense for Ganrelka to have been the son of an older brother of Celmomas, because then he'd have been the High King if this hypothetical brother of Celmomas was dead. The age difference is already small enough for some people to doubt that Ganrelka was a son of Celmomas, so it doesn't make much sense for him to be the nephew of Celmomas via a younger brother, since then that brother would have had to be 14 or younger at the time of Ganrelka's birth. Of course, one can make the argument that Ganrelka could be a more distant relation and Celmomas' nephew by marriage...but that's entering too nitpicky a territory, even for me.
Winter added its cold to the emptiness of Ishuäl. Propped on the battlements, the child would listen to the wolves sing and feud through the dark forests. He would pull his arms from his sleeves and hug his body against the chill, murmuring his dead mother’s songs and savouring the wind's bite on his cheek. He would fly through the courtyards, answering the wolves with Kûniüric war cries, brandishing weapons that staggered him with their weight.It probably means nothing, but it just made me wonder.
Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot. They have the same exact goals. And, this was brought up many times wether there was one or not. We'll never know (and excusing any extratextual fact), it would make sense. Remember, we hear over and over that the Consult patience would bugger the imagination. Anyhow, an unknown, one that makes too much sense.
... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult.Interesting thought.
He feels a change. In a around a year...Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol
A pretty common theme. Its the whole reason for the dreams, after all, because the Sagas don't hold captive the same way the Dreams do.QuoteInk might be immortal, but meaning was not.How ironic, dont ya think!
Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.
I have never seen the two of you in the same place, though... ;)
TimelineAwesome :) .If the reread goes like this, there'll be a total of 129 weeks of discussion and we'd end TUC on September 20, 2020 (so yes, close to 2.5 years).
- TDTCB has 19 chapters + prologue, so this reread goes on for 19 weeks.
- TWP has 25 chapters -> 25 weeks.
- TTT has 17 chapters -> 17 weeks (unless someone wants an extra week to discuss glossary details?)
- TJE has 16 chapters + prologue and interlude, so I'm assuming we'll have 16 weeks of discussion (prologue being grouped with chapter 1 and interlude with chapter 16).
- TWLW has 15 chapters + interlude -> again, assuming chapter 15 + interlude, so 15 weeks.
- TGO has 17 chapters + prologue -> once again, chapter 1 + prologue, 17 weeks.
- TUC has 20 chapters - 20 weeks (unless, like mentioned above for TTT, there is extra discussion on the glossary).
In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.QuoteGanrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.
-I think this has also been brought up before, but I like the parallels and contrasts we have between the unnamed bastard boy and the Boy, aka Crabicus. One young boy becoming the first of a new Anasûrimbor line, the other being the last (at least from a generational point of view, since there are still other Anasûrimbor living). The bastard boy had recently lost his father at the time of the Dûnyain's arrival, and the Boy recently lost his father in the current series time. Ganrelka's son is not really an Anasûrimbor, in a way, as he's illegitimate; the Boy is not really a Dûnyain, in a way, as he's defective. And so on. It makes me wonder if there could be any clues for the Boy's future in the bastard boy's story?Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.
-Has anyone ever discussed the fact that wolves might have some sort of symbolism in the story?We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).
A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult a...That's an interesting idea, he definitely seems like a shady character, there could be more to him than we know.
Do we know if this is the same Bardic Priest that Akka mentions in his early TAE dreams (the ones with Seswatha's affair with the queen)? If so, he could very well be playing a long game, as that was decades before this prologue is set. After all, there was at least one Consult agent in Celmomas' court (Iëva), so why not more?
Interesting thought.
Is it strange that a bard is in Ishual at all? I mean, there's a limited number of people they are going to send, and they used up a slot for a bard? Though I guess he's the entertainment, Kings and their progeny must be entertained :P.
Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol
Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.
Awesome :) .
In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.
Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.
We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).
A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.
I will take it upon myself to chronicle dreams and you guys can help dissect. As for wolves and trees, other must step up to the plate.
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".
Yeah, extra-textually he said it was Mekeritrig. He also, extra-textually had said that the line should have said "ridden both against and for the Consult."
The Bardic Priest is NOT a Consult agent, cease this madness! Also, was it ever confirmed directly by Bakker that the Nonman Kellhus encounters in the prologue is Cet'ingira? I remember there was some confusion about "ridden both against and for the No-God".
Yeah, extra-textually he said it was Mekeritrig. He also, extra-textually had said that the line should have said "ridden both against and for the Consult."
What was that, like 10 ... or even close to 15 years ago he said that? lol.
Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot.I don't think he's in the Consult, but his line "there are no crimes when no one is left alive seems to foreshadow what the Consult are all about, i.e. if they kill enough people, then there is not enough judgement to cause damnation.
Chapter 1. Tells us Akka is not that good a spy - i.e. not great at deceiving people. He's been sussed out by his informant and by the skin-spy
Bodies tumbling through the knotted waters of a river cataract. A lover grunting blood through clenched teeth. Fire wrapped like a wanton dancer about stone towers.
3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain
During the interrogation of Leweth, Kellhus views sorcery as just another of Leweth's myths. Leweth, like all men, does not know what comes before. And then comes this line: "But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman." (pg. 17) Inhuman? What could this mean.
(Note: A lot of my questions and comments are just rhetorical. I'm trying, not very successfully, to maintain the illusion of a first-time careful reader.)Noted ;)
I agree with H, the Prologue is excellent. AIf the prologue wasn't so amazing I never would have finished TDTCB. I struggled to finish it up until about 75% of the way through, and the prologue is what kept me going.
2. Dûnyain: "We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?"This is actually a really great line on a reread.
Boy: "So long as men live, there are crimes!"
Dûnyain: "No, child. Only so long as men are deceived."
(Deception, we soon learn, is an art that the Dûnyain have mastered.)
What is a correspondence of cause?To me it sounds to be an archaic, 'fantasy-y', way of saying coincidence. That said, there are some interesting search links if you look up that phrase:
I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?Quote from: BFK3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain
Its part of the reason I believe they was sent there. Think on it. The Bard would have survived if not for a very pissed off young boy. Brought a disease with him to clean house? And, lo and behold, a secret redoubt for the Dunyain. Truly, a great correspondence of cause, or a Consult plan they fucking forgot about because Mek is a Nonman. (I'm just saying, really no evidence that makes it a fact, but evidence keeps piling up that it could of been a Consult long game.).Quote from: BFKDuring the interrogation of Leweth, Kellhus views sorcery as just another of Leweth's myths. Leweth, like all men, does not know what comes before. And then comes this line: "But what came before, the Dûnyain had learned, was inhuman." (pg. 17) Inhuman? What could this mean.
Legion. Passion, envy, spite, etc, etc. Hell, in Earwa's scheme of things, the 100....
I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?
But, at this point in the story, be a easy thing for a skin spy to suss ya out. Their unheard of.
The rest of the chapter is somewhat unremarkable, aside the fortuitous timing of Akka's being recalled. Although, in light of us knowing that there was a Skin-Spy in the Mandate, possibly even at this point, was this really a coincidence? On first reading, my presumption is the Akka has a "narrow miss" with the Skin-Spy, but considering that already knew of him, knew his location and his identity, Akka was allowed to continue the whole time. Akka being recalled and Geshrunni being killed is not a coincidence at all, or just some manipulation of "fate" but rather a direct Consult plan to use Akka to garner information.
BFK's ARC: Prologue
(Note: A lot of my questions and comments are just rhetorical. I'm trying, not very successfully, to maintain the illusion of a first-time careful reader.)
I agree with H, the Prologue is excellent. An introduction to the Dûnyain and to Kellhus.
Prologue, first part, notes:
1. The Dûnyain are already in pursuit of "awareness most holy" when they arrive at Ishüal, and have repudiated the Gods. They deliberately obliterate all records and evidence of sorcery. (pg. 4). What could they be up to?
2. Dûnyain: "We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?"
Boy: "So long as men live, there are crimes!"
Dûnyain: "No, child. Only so long as men are deceived."
(Deception, we soon learn, is an art that the Dûnyain have mastered.)
3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain?
However, I forgot about the skin-spy in the Mandate, in which case they would know what he was - and where.
Wouldn't a skin-spy Geshrunni give access to the Scarlet Spires rather than to Akka?
That's a sound interpretation, H. What I like is that Bakker, in this introduction to the Dûnyain, gives us a little chill of foreboding. "Inhuman" has many implications. It could imply that "what comes before" are those powerful, mechanistic forces of custom and heredity to which the un-Conditioned man is subject. That's my guess, but I like feeding the "Consult long con" theory. ;)I'm thinking more along the lines of your "Consult long con" theory. Is this line a hint from Bakker that the Dûnyain (who have repudiated the Gods) have learned that the Apocalypse is being driven by inhuman forces? Have they plumbed the depths of the Consult? What is the extent of the Dûnyain's mundane knowledge?
I think "inhuman" here might hark back to earlier in the chapter, where Kellhus experiences himself nearly "going feral" and needs a reminder than he is not an animal. What comes before, as far as the Dûnyain are concerned, is inhuman, i.e. primitive and animalistic, unvoiced and a-linguistic. The Logos is what sets them apart from the animals; literally The Word(s).
You're right about the ambiguity, CA. In fact, building on your thought, the "great correspondence of cause" that the Dûnyain refugees are celebrating is the "co-incidence" (thanks, Wilshire!) of these two events. Nailed that one down, folks!
3. The Dûnyain celebrate their discovery of Ishüal as a great correspondence of cause. What is a correspondence of cause? Who are these Dûnyain?
Doesn't cause have a more specific meaning to the Dunyain? Also to me it seemed ambiguous as to whether they were celebrating the discovery of Ishual or of the Anasurimbor boy.
That's a sound interpretation, H. What I like is that Bakker, in this introduction to the Dûnyain, gives us a little chill of foreboding. "Inhuman" has many implications. It could imply that "what comes before" are those powerful, mechanistic forces of custom and heredity to which the un-Conditioned man is subject. That's my guess, but I like feeding the "Consult long con" theory. ;)
Not sure about a Consult long-con though, since I've usually maintained that the Consult position is pretty logical and technically correct.
The skin spy replacements are for a couple things.Geshrunni is not replaced though, since his corpse is later found by the Scarlet Spires (and Elearazas makes a point of his missing face to Achamian) IIRC.
One is to place people high up so the Consult have top level information about everything going on.
Another is to screw with the Mandate. The Mandati have fallen into I'll repute - this is probably not just because the Consult is hidden, but because the skinspies themselves are at top levels and telling everyone to disreguard them. It's a two pronged assault.
Another reason for the skin spies is to replace the spies of the Mandate - all the ones they haven't yet killed. This allows then to feed false or confusing info to the Madate and effectively control every source of data they have. Another dual assault.
In addition, it also let's the Consult spy in turn on the Mandate. The Consult only have the one spy wlinsude the Auorum (I assume), and probably recently (last few years?). They have probably been replacing spies for centuries as a way to figure out what info the Mandate knows. It also allows to discover information, like if the Mandate are suspicious of their replacements, what lies they listen to from the Consult, etc.etc.
With all that in mind, the replacement of Geshrunni was probably for at least several reasons. The-Thing-Called-Geshruni would probably provide a new, useful, source of info to the Consult about the SS and about Akka (and in effect the Mandate).
On the morning of the twenty-ninth day, he crouched on rocks green with moss and watched salmon leap and pitch against a rushing river. The sun rose and set three times before his thoughts escaped this inexplicable war of fish and waters.He was completely mesmerized by fish for over three days. Three days! The ignorance of the outside world imposed by the first Dûnyain did not work to Kellhus' advantage at all, he was insanely lucky he found another human to manipulate (assuming that the theory of this being Moënghus' "conditioned ground" is not true) before he died in the wilderness.
He would come to them as one awake. He would shelter in the hollows of their ignorance, and through truth he would make them his instruments. He was Dûnyain, one of the Conditioned, and he would possess all peoples, all circumstances. He would come before.Big words for a man who recently nearly died due to his own ignorance, Kellhus. Amazing when you compare the Kellhus of TAE to this early version of him, it's almost like a completely different character.
"Should you not fear me, mortal, knowing what I am? Fear too is power. The power to survive."
"It baits me! The mortal baits me . . . It reminds me, reminds . . ."Is it just me, or is Mekeritrig's behaviour/choice of words here very different from the Nonmen we find in the rest of the series, and even from his own later appearance in TUC? While this is a great scene, I can't help but think his dialogue sounds like it's coming from a more stereotypical, classic villain. Maybe it's just the use of the word "mortal", which I don't remember happening in other books?
"ANASÛRIMBOR!" an unearthly voice called, cracking the winter silence.This is a nice parallel to Ajokli-Cnaiür confronting the Whirlwind at the end of TUC.
"RUN, ANASÛRIMBOR!" it boomed. "I WILL REMEMBER!"
Cold night fell. Somewhere in the dark, wolves howled. Shimeh, they seemed to say, was too far.And we close out the prologue with another mention of wolves.
The Worm was filled with wolves, desperate men who followed mark after mark searching for those drunk enough to be safely plundered.Mention of wolves #3 and counting. And yes, I'll be counting both actual and metaphorical wolves.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror.This is probably the most interesting bit of the chapter on a reread, as it has been said, definitely a sign that Akka's dreams did not change only after becoming a Wizard. But could there be anything else to it, any further connection between Seswatha and Akka that we still don't know that is responsible for the different dreams? (besides the fact of Akka taking the Seswatha role at the end of TUC, that is)
I was meant to suffer, Achamian thought.Absolutely true, and Anagkë is not finished with you yet, Akka... (this is also a fairly amusing line because of out it works in and out of universe)
lmao.QuoteHe was Dûnyain, one of the Conditioned, and he would possess all peoples, all circumstances. He would come before.Big words for a man who recently nearly died due to his own ignorance, Kellhus. Amazing when you compare the Kellhus of TAE to this early version of him, it's almost like a completely different character.
:( Poor guy.QuoteI was meant to suffer, Achamian thought.Absolutely true, and Anagkë is not finished with you yet, Akka... (this is also a fairly amusing line because of out it works in and out of universe)