Earwa > The Great Ordeal

Kellhus' return to Momemn and the Hundred

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The Black Light:
So there's something that really bothers me about Kellhus returning to Momemn. Going back exactly when he's needed seems like either a plan or a coincidence. But how could he know what's going on there or what is going to happen (without the earthquake Fanayal couldn't really storm the city)? And it couldn't simply be a coincidence.

From what Psatma says we learn she knew the earthquake was coming, that it was caused by Yatwer, or so she thinks. But do the Gods really act this way? If Yatwer can simply cause an earthquake, why not do it anytime while Kellhus was somewhere in the Palace near a Chorae that would kill him? Or while he's sleeping? Can't a God cause a storm while Kellhus was controlling that raft over The Misty Sea and struck him with a lightning? Even if not killing him, then stunning him so he'll lose control and all of them could sink and drown before Kellhus is able to recover? After all, there are numerous examples of the Gods working through people - Psatma, TWLW, Sorweel, the Narindars... And it seems like that's how they do it - through people rather than directly.

Indeed, maybe she needed the WLW in order to cause a natural phenomenon like the earthquake (Eärwaquake?), but if Sorweel was really blessed by her, maybe she could have done something, anything, while he was near K. So how come all this coincide - the Aspect-Emperor coming back to Momemn precisely when he's needed to stop Fanayal precisely after he can finally storm the city due to the collapsed walls?

Is there some kind of contradiction between the way Gods normally act and what Yatwer does or it's all in my head only?

Wilshire:
I think there's plenty of instances that might suggest Yatwer is special. First of all, she directly shows up in Earwa which I think is huge, but there are other more minor 'miracles' that we see from her - none of the other gods really manifest nearly as directly or even indirectly as Yatwer (so far as we have seen).
Other than Yatwer though, we have see the Narindar of Ajokli, potentially the voice in Inrau's head from the head-on-a-pole lady (forget her name, sorry), Ajokli's prophecy, rumors of Gilgaol possession of people on battlefields, and probably several others. Yatwer has the most instances of manipulations that we see, in this timeline of Earwa history that we have glimpsed, but its wouldn't be too surprisng to find out that other gods have had great interventions in older histories or other timelines that we havent seen.

That said, I don't think Yatwer was the entirety of the cause of the earthquake (Earwaque? Earwaquake, Earwake... whatever). All of her manipulations were mostly nudges  through people. The closest thing we saw was when the WLW's tenant building collapsed, and we got to see the cause-and-effect chain for hundreds of years in the past.

Maybe she nudged the builders to use mediocre materials in one part of the wall, or place a vulnerable point of the wall directly over the faultline - this kind of thing. If she knew there would be an ground-shaking-event such a thing would be fairly reasonable. Like you said, it opens up to many questions if its as simple as "Yatwer reached down to Earwa, and with her hands, split the ground asunder".

"Coincidence" is pretty tricky where Yatwer, WLW, and Kellhus are concerned. All of them claim to see everything and predict the future. All of them have been wrong. Definitely its too much for me to say that there was no God intervention there in Momemn, and equally difficult to suggest that there was none. As with most things in the series, its probably some kind of combination of both.

Francis Buck:
I would definitely put Yatwer and Gilgaol in a somewhat special place in the hierarchy. They are basically polar opposites, and together create the engine that cycles souls through life and death. And, as Wilshire mentioned, there is an abundance of evident miracles on Yatwer's behalf, and as of TGO, the only god we've seen genuinely incarnated (for lack of a better word) it would seem is Gilgaol, during the extended Celmomian Prophecy.


All that being said, I'm still somewhat divided on whether the instances of visible power we've seen from Yatwer is because of something unique to the deity, or if it's simply all the audience has been shown, and the other Hundred have yet to appear so vividly on-screen thus far (as Yatwer was depicted in the first trilogy, for example). I'm inclined toward it being a bit of both.

ETA:


--- Quote from: Wilshire on March 10, 2017, 06:39:07 pm ---That said, I don't think Yatwer was the entirety of the cause of the earthquake (Earwaque? Earwaquake, Earwake... whatever). All of her manipulations were mostly nudges  through people. The closest thing we saw was when the WLW's tenant building collapsed, and we got to see the cause-and-effect chain for hundreds of years in the past.

Maybe she nudged the builders to use mediocre materials in one part of the wall, or place a vulnerable point of the wall directly over the faultline - this kind of thing. If she knew there would be an ground-shaking-event such a thing would be fairly reasonable. Like you said, it opens up to many questions if its as simple as "Yatwer reached down to Earwa, and with her hands, split the ground asunder".

--- End quote ---

The earthquake was actually caused by Momas, not Yatwer, for what it's worth. Not sure how I'd even define "cause" here really, as you implied.

Also, the one possible outlier among Yatwer's interventions being more like nudges (which I otherwise agree with) is when she embodies herself out of dead sranc. The actual motivation for the characters is still sort of in the "nudge" category, but so far as outright displays of power over material reality, it's a pretty big one.

Idle thought: it's interesting that Yatwer and Gilgaol both manifest (in their own fashion) using the remains of the dead. Can't help but be reminded of how Sil is described as "wearing the festering bodies" of the fallen.

Wilshire:
Oh, was it Momas? I though Psatma said Yatwer, maybe Esmi says Momas right? Could be either/both/neither lol.

The Black Light:
Ajokli's prophecy? I'm not quite sure I remember something like that, can you explain it? It seems I need an Elju.

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