I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology...
If I've given the impression I'm after a Disney hero win, that wasnt my intention. Oedipus' tale is an example of a non happy ending I enjoyed. I will hesitantly chuck The Walking Dead comics up as another example of non-Disney hero wins. Or any of Bakkers previous 6 books in the series, theyre grim but not as blunt as "And so the Great Ordeal of Anisurimbor Kellhus ended in blood and butchery" or whatever the final sentence was.
The world hasnt ended in the Erawa universe at the end of TUC, it has just recycled. The only thing that immediately stands out as different this time is that the Scylvendi weren't directly involved in the final battle this time (bar as a vehicle for Kelmomas to get into the Ark via the-thing-that-is-Serwe)
The fact that there is an apparent third series does change the tone of things massively to be fair, during my original read I had no idea there would be books 8+ so it felt like a cheap inversion of a trope at the last second to cap a beautiful series. More books mean loose ends are not so poinless.
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Im being very black and white about this ... Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.
What am i missing here?
I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".... Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.
What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?
That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments....
So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss.
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Right fair points I suppose.
The context is this series of books, and the good/bad guys is shorthand for the groups any reader coming into this book would very quickly come to formulate. As stated in the OP for brevity I stripped my comment down to black/white and threw the philosophy aside.
Sure Kellhus is theorised to be the bad guy - hes also explicitley stated by the author (possibly in the AMA post my OP) as having the goal of ending the Resumtion and Damnation of the human race.
Akka has the same base motivation as Kellhus, but based on the compultion of his dreams. His genuine love of Esmi, Inrau, Zin, Mim, his children/child et. al., to spare them the horror of Apocalypse and Damnation (he wont share the Gnosis with Mim) at the knowing expense of his own Damnation makes him a good guy. He sure does murder a witch for Schoolman duty, and countless other bad things.
Proyas, Saubon, Sorweel etc.
Essentially if someone has a POV, barring some small and brief exceptions, they are 'good'. Or use the razor of selfishness, the Consult is obessed with self preservation and all else be damned. They have never even had the shield of the greater good rasied in their name, they just want to save themselves. Kosoter is a great example of this, he just doesnt want to go to hell and will do anything to avoid it.
If you wanted to argue the middle ground that there are no bad guys, this makes sense in the context of PoN as it is essentially just two religeons going head to head. Sure one side is being manipulated by my proposed 'bad' guys, and their belief system is also predicated on writings likewise provided by the 'bad' guys - which is just another couple nails in the manipulation coffin. Men of the Tusk not only openly believe they are Good, they are the easiest faction we the reader as a bunch of (im generalising) westerners living in societies based on Christain values can relate to.
Everyone thinks they themself is the good.
Perhaps I'm an ass, but having to explain who i mean by good/bad really feels like retreading ground. Especially for a comment that states it is stripping things down to the core. This world is painted in dark greys, has objective morality different to our own morality, has gods and demons that need to feed on human souls (presumptively to survive) but the basics of story tellings are still here.
Gods and the Consult might not be bad in the Chaotic-Evil DnD sense, but moraly to us as readers they are still designed to be repulsive.
Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up
![Smiley :)](https://www.second-apocalypse.com/Smileys/BBPh/smiley.gif)
Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!
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Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?
Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.