Earwa > The No-God

The Heart

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mrganondorf:

--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 05, 2018, 02:33:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on June 05, 2018, 02:25:55 pm ---We don't actually know when Emilidis died.

--- End quote ---
The only evidence that Emilidis did, in fact, die is provided by a cunny-loving dragon, who might not be particularly sane, for that matter. It's the whole pesky size thing.

--- End quote ---

I wonder if he helped with the Carapace (both times).

mrganondorf:

--- Quote from: H on June 05, 2018, 02:25:55 pm ---Well, Seswatha would certainly have been familiar with the Amiolas, considering that he once wore it.  It wouldn't shock me if the Heart was actually another of Emilidis' creations, in the same ilk of the Amiolas.  In fact, Seswatha might never have died of any cause but being put into the Heart.  We don't actually know when Emilidis died.  Could have been after Seswatha, for all we know, means he could have made it.

I have to admit, the idea that it's NC's heart is neat and I like it for a number of reasons, not the least is how the No-God seems to be networked to soulless things and the Heart to souled things, but I don't know how probable it is.  Although the whole idea that the Consult recovered NC's body post-No God seems odd, but the whole Indigo Plague entry is suspicious as hell really.

--- End quote ---

I was thinking that the lore that the Consult recovered Mog's remains might just be made up, maybe by Ses.  It would be freaking chaos after Mog goes down.  Do the scranc revert to their previous state or slump over in temporary stunned state?  Any Consult members who do not immediately flee would have to worry about a laser beam.  I don't know that Anaxophus would be particularly worried about conserving the spear in that moment.  I find it unlikely that he would take a long view of a series of potential apocalypses.  It would be gosh-darn handy for blasting dragons, sky-chariots, quya, and Aurang.

mrganondorf:
If Ses is NC's father, that might be important when they met at Mengedda.  It might also foreshadow a moment when Esmenet speaks with the Whirlwind.  I wonder if Esmi could distract it (might be the only human Mog would even notice).  The whole idea that Mog says nothing but the same lines over and over is based on the limited amount of Ses recollections we've seen.  Mog could say other stuff.  He is a kind of singularity of ignorance forming a wall to the gods--their darkness that comes before, the always unknown, the unknown unknown constant the Mutilated talk about.  The thing Cleric talks about worshiping but from the Outside's pov.  I bet Bakker might want to put a few cool lines in Mog's mouth concerning all of that.

MSJ:
I love this MG. Its a great idea that accounts for Akka's dreams. Someone else had another theory on the dreams that Kellhus would take over the heart, I like that too.

As for this theory, I do have a little concern how Ses came upon the heart, as others have expressed. But, besides that its a great theory and would make for some interesting dreams for Akka, going forward.

I think Emidilis is around in some artifact.....somewhere. With as many sorcerous artifacts in his name, you'd think he made a loop/prison for his soul also. Good stuff!

ThoughtsOfThelli:

--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 01:28:55 pm ---I like your posts ToT, been meaning to tell you.

Lol, the first time I read that through I thought you meant that Ses knew NC was a potential Mog before he was trapped in the Carapace.  That might suggest that Ses took NC with him to barter for the Heron Spear.  But that doesn't make any sense--why help create Mog that you need to destroy?  Tuesdays.
--- End quote ---

Thank you! :)

Oh, wow, that would make Seswatha an even shadier character than he already seems sometimes... Definitely a bad, bad decision to take a potential Insertant along in a trip to Golgotterath, part of a plan or not. Yet...it's Seswatha we're talking about. I can't completely put it past him.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 01:28:55 pm ---I bet you are right about the way Ses' life ended, but I admit the NC Heart theory as an alternative.  I wonder if the general lack of sorcerers post-Apocalypse meant that Ses had to recruit from the anagogic ranks to create the Mandate?
--- End quote ---

Hmm, never considered that. It's very possible, if not probable. Or maybe there were few left but that was enough for the Mandate to get started (and most swelling of ranks happened after Seswatha's lifetime). Even in the modern day, they are not known for being a particularly large school, so I can see both possibilities being true.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 01:28:55 pm ---I think it was the Amiolas that got me thinking that the Heart could be NC's.  I was thinking that the procedure might be rare and difficult (a category above a Wathi doll or the blank souls in the door to the library) and that the Nonmen might have taught it to Ses alone.  Hell, I guess it's even possible that the Heart is (in a sense) a Nonman artifact.  Maybe Seswatha was given something, like a dagger, that when used on his heart would create artifact needed for the Grasping.
--- End quote ---

Another good call - after learning about the Amiolas and Seswatha's repeated use of it in TAE, it seems very likely that there is a connection there. It would definitely be a very complicated rite to pull off (not to mention dangerous) and it's possible that only Seswatha's (apparently) noble intent (to prevent a Second Apocalypse) got the Nonmen who helped him to agree. Anyway, yes, now that you've brought it up, it's quite plausible that Qûya were involved in the creation of the Heart as we know it today.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 01:28:55 pm ---But back to the Amiolas.  I was thinking along these lines--it's weird how the Malcontent is sort of 'respawned' or something everytime a new human has to wear it.  Like every human that visits Ishterebinth and wears the Special Hat, becomes a new, faint, little copy.  As in, the portion of soul in the Amiolas is not diminished when used.

So as the Maker put the Malcontent's soul in the Amiolas, Someone X (maybe a nonman) could but Ses' soul in NC's Heart (where another soul already resided).
--- End quote ---

I never thought that was that strange - Immiriccas' soul is part of the Amiolas, as much of a component as the material used to make it. It's a "fixed point", what varies is the soul of whoever is wearing it at the time. So it's always present and always able to seep into the consciousness of anyone who wears it. Granted, we don't know if Immiriccas' soul had an even more intense presence shortly after the Amiolas' creation. It's possible its strength diminished (very slowly) over time.

On Seswatha's soul - yes, it seems likely that if the Amiolas was the inspiration, this was what happened.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 01:28:55 pm ---It would be kind of cool if NC get's revenge 2000 years later...maybe by killing New Mog, but maybe also by killing Aurax.

--- End quote ---

Apocalypse 2: The Revenge of Nau-Cayûti. 8)
Now (more) seriously, it would indeed be quite satisfying. I kind of wish Aurax would survive, though, but maybe it would be for the best for him to be put out of his misery. He hasn't been well for quite a while (and I think his mental deterioration was most likely already present when the Mutilated took over, even if they only intensified it).



--- Quote from: H on June 05, 2018, 02:25:55 pm ---Well, Seswatha would certainly have been familiar with the Amiolas, considering that he once wore it.  It wouldn't shock me if the Heart was actually another of Emilidis' creations, in the same ilk of the Amiolas.  In fact, Seswatha might never have died of any cause but being put into the Heart.  We don't actually know when Emilidis died.  Could have been after Seswatha, for all we know, means he could have made it.

I have to admit, the idea that it's NC's heart is neat and I like it for a number of reasons, not the least is how the No-God seems to be networked to soulless things and the Heart to souled things, but I don't know how probable it is.  Although the whole idea that the Consult recovered NC's body post-No God seems odd, but the whole Indigo Plague entry is suspicious as hell really.

--- End quote ---

As more and more of Emilidis' creations keep popping up in the series, it does sound very plausible. Our only piece of information about Emilidis' death, as SmilerLoki said, comes from Skuthula, who claims to have eaten him. Skuthula is not exactly the most trustworthy source, though. It still seems possibly for Emilidis to have created the Heart, or at the very least assisted in its creation.

Whatever happened to the body of the No-God 1.0 is indeed very suspicious. (And again tied to the whole idea that Seswatha is hiding/manipulating some truths.) Something strange happened at that time, that I'm pretty sure of. (Maybe a new thread about what happened to the No-God's remains and the Indigo Plague is in order?)



--- Quote from: SmilerLoki on June 05, 2018, 02:33:31 pm ---The only evidence that Emilidis did, in fact, die is provided by a cunny-loving dragon, who might not be particularly sane, for that matter. It's the whole pesky size thing.

--- End quote ---

Exactly. You can't trust anything Skuthula says, he's just not a reliable source. Of course, it's entirely possible Emilidis did in fact die before the events of the series, just not in the way Skuthula claims. Also possible that he's still around somewhere, just like Nil'giccas was at the beginning of TAE.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 02:51:12 pm ---I wonder if he helped with the Carapace (both times).

--- End quote ---

That also seems like a not fully implausible possibility. I think it might have been inspired/influenced by some of his works even if he was not personally involved.
Do we know when the second Carapace was built? Was it shortly after the First Apocalypse ended, or was it a more recent thing?



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 02:57:35 pm ---I was thinking that the lore that the Consult recovered Mog's remains might just be made up, maybe by Ses.  It would be freaking chaos after Mog goes down.  Do the scranc revert to their previous state or slump over in temporary stunned state?  Any Consult members who do not immediately flee would have to worry about a laser beam.  I don't know that Anaxophus would be particularly worried about conserving the spear in that moment.  I find it unlikely that he would take a long view of a series of potential apocalypses.  It would be gosh-darn handy for blasting dragons, sky-chariots, quya, and Aurang.

--- End quote ---

The potential for Seswatha hiding/distorting many historical facts rears its head once again! I agree that he really could have done what he wanted at such a chaotic time and would have easily been able to hide that fact later on. Anaxophus himself (maybe conveniently?) died the following year, so he wouldn't have been around to contradict Seswatha's official version of events when he started making plans for the creation of the Heart.



--- Quote from: TheSolitaryMG on June 05, 2018, 03:05:45 pm ---If Ses is NC's father, that might be important when they met at Mengedda.  It might also foreshadow a moment when Esmenet speaks with the Whirlwind.  I wonder if Esmi could distract it (might be the only human Mog would even notice).  The whole idea that Mog says nothing but the same lines over and over is based on the limited amount of Ses recollections we've seen.  Mog could say other stuff.  He is a kind of singularity of ignorance forming a wall to the gods--their darkness that comes before, the always unknown, the unknown unknown constant the Mutilated talk about.  The thing Cleric talks about worshiping but from the Outside's pov.  I bet Bakker might want to put a few cool lines in Mog's mouth concerning all of that.

--- End quote ---

It's possible we could have some new dialogue from the No-God (if this does happen, I don't think it will be until later in TNG, though). And that's an interesting point you made about Esmenet. Surely, if the KelSammi soul inside still had some kind of perception of any kind (though...doubtful based on the No-God's apparent confusion?), he would react to Esmenet's presence in any way he could.



--- Quote from: MSJ on June 05, 2018, 03:18:24 pm ---I love this MG. Its a great idea that accounts for Akka's dreams. Someone else had another theory on the dreams that Kellhus would take over the heart, I like that too.

As for this theory, I do have a little concern how Ses came upon the heart, as others have expressed. But, besides that its a great theory and would make for some interesting dreams for Akka, going forward.

I think Emidilis is around in some artifact.....somewhere. With as many sorcerous artifacts in his name, you'd think he made a loop/prison for his soul also. Good stuff!

--- End quote ---

H and MG do have good points about the circumstances of the recovery of the No-God's remains being quite suspicious, so I think it could work.

Emilidis seemed to have despised the Amiolas, so I don't think he would have placed his own soul in any of his other artifacts. We never know, though...


--- Quote from: TGO, Chapter 9 ---"Emilidis abhorred all his miraculous works," the Nonman finally said, "but none so much as the Amiolas. He made certain that no one could forget its nature."
--- End quote ---

Not even just the Amiolas, all of them, apparently! Which is intriguing, to say the least.

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