Miscellaneous Chatter > Philosophy & Science
Is there really a Determinism/Indeterminism Dichotomy?
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: TaoHorror on October 31, 2018, 07:12:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 06:42:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 29, 2018, 12:30:15 pm ---Well, for me, I have a hard time imagining what comes between the chain of cause and effect. At the macro-level, I don't think there really is anything there. But there is the possibility of some "indeterminacy" at the quantum level, if I understand it correctly.
The question then is how much does quantum indeterminacy influence macro-level determincy? The answer can't really be zero, or a hundred, percent though so it must be some murky amount in-between.
--- End quote ---
I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
--- End quote ---
TL, I love it, but I'm not as well versed in this science as you are - can you explain it in layman's terms so I can understand your example better?
--- End quote ---
A chemical bond breaking would be a quantum event right? So my point is just that these events can influence macroscale phenomena, i.e. the transition doesn't go away, everything is quantum, it's just that at different scales things we see some things and others not so much. Like, gravity. It's the weakest of all forces by far, we only really see it at big scales, but it doesn't mean that it's not there at small scales.
sciborg2:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 07:22:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: TaoHorror on October 31, 2018, 07:12:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 06:42:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 29, 2018, 12:30:15 pm ---Well, for me, I have a hard time imagining what comes between the chain of cause and effect. At the macro-level, I don't think there really is anything there. But there is the possibility of some "indeterminacy" at the quantum level, if I understand it correctly.
The question then is how much does quantum indeterminacy influence macro-level determincy? The answer can't really be zero, or a hundred, percent though so it must be some murky amount in-between.
--- End quote ---
I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
--- End quote ---
TL, I love it, but I'm not as well versed in this science as you are - can you explain it in layman's terms so I can understand your example better?
--- End quote ---
A chemical bond breaking would be a quantum event right? So my point is just that these events can influence macroscale phenomena, i.e. the transition doesn't go away, everything is quantum, it's just that at different scales things we see some things and others not so much. Like, gravity. It's the weakest of all forces by far, we only really see it at big scales, but it doesn't mean that it's not there at small scales.
--- End quote ---
Great example, much better stated than my attempt. <<insert appropriate emoji>>
H:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 06:42:35 pm ---I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
--- End quote ---
Well, that example is well and good, because it's very clear how one change in this case leads to a replication error, that can then be evident when extrapolated out.
However, when there are 100 billion neurons, or so, it is less clear that "chance" is what determines the outcome 100% of the time. If it the case then that the quantum indeterminacy is the only thing governing our actions, how do we survive? Surely the blind indeterminate quantum effects are agnostic to hunger, so how could we ever know to take actions necessary to survive? Or how could we ever predict anything, if all cause is indeterminate? I just don't see how 100% is realistic in most cases here.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 07:40:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 06:42:35 pm ---I think it has to be 100%. Imagine something macro scale like a mutation caused by radiation. This can give an observable macro scale phenotype but it's caused by a stochastic quantum event, i.e. a particle breaking a chemical bond in DNA somewhere.
--- End quote ---
Well, that example is well and good, because it's very clear how one change in this case leads to a replication error, that can then be evident when extrapolated out.
However, when there are 100 billion neurons, or so, it is less clear that "chance" is what determines the outcome 100% of the time. If it the case then that the quantum indeterminacy is the only thing governing our actions, how do we survive? Surely the blind indeterminate quantum effects are agnostic to hunger, so how could we ever know to take actions necessary to survive? Or how could we ever predict anything, if all cause is indeterminate? I just don't see how 100% is realistic in most cases here.
--- End quote ---
I'm so out my depth but I'll try my best 8) I think at it's core it's just a statistical thing, i.e. on average every x will be doing y. On average this particular receptor is in this conformation etc.
--- Quote ---Surely the blind indeterminate quantum effects are agnostic to hunger, so how could we ever know to take actions necessary to survive?
--- End quote ---
I view it more like as a huge clusterfuck of chemical reactions that happen because the universe is trying to maximize entropy. Of course the how and whys of how exactly this happens is too complex for me, but in my view the fundamental answer to everything is entropy.
On a tangent, one of my favorite pop-sci related objects regarding this subject is this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Untoik6c_gs
It makes me feel things inside, particularly the line at 3:16
H:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 07:54:00 pm ---I'm so out my depth but I'll try my best 8) I think at it's core it's just a statistical thing, i.e. on average every x will be doing y. On average this particular receptor is in this conformation etc.
--- End quote ---
Well, I am not a mathematician at all and don't aspire to be one, really. But doesn't this undermine your point that indeterminacy drives 100% of actions, if we are instead governed by weights of averages? So then things are determinate, on average, yes?
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 07:54:00 pm ---I view it more like as a huge clusterfuck of chemical reactions that happen because the universe is trying to maximize entropy. Of course the how and whys of how exactly this happens is too complex for me, but in my view the fundamental answer to everything is entropy.
--- End quote ---
OK, but that doesn't explain our human desire to avert, prevent, and directly reverse entropy?
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