Miscellaneous Chatter > Philosophy & Science
Is there really a Determinism/Indeterminism Dichotomy?
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 08:37:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 07:54:00 pm ---I'm so out my depth but I'll try my best 8) I think at it's core it's just a statistical thing, i.e. on average every x will be doing y. On average this particular receptor is in this conformation etc.
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Well, I am not a mathematician at all and don't aspire to be one, really. But doesn't this undermine your point that indeterminacy drives 100% of actions, if we are instead governed by weights of averages? So then things are determinate, on average, yes?
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Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with indeterminacy, but yeah, except that you can also sample extreme values.
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 08:37:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 31, 2018, 07:54:00 pm ---I view it more like as a huge clusterfuck of chemical reactions that happen because the universe is trying to maximize entropy. Of course the how and whys of how exactly this happens is too complex for me, but in my view the fundamental answer to everything is entropy.
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OK, but that doesn't explain our human desire to avert, prevent, and directly reverse entropy?
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I don't think so. Hell, try do it and see what happens, entropy will probably increase as a result!
sciborg2:
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 08:37:50 pm ---Well, I am not a mathematician at all and don't aspire to be one, really. But doesn't this undermine your point that indeterminacy drives 100% of actions, if we are instead governed by weights of averages? So then things are determinate, on average, yes?
--- End quote ---
But to say things are determinate, on average, is to say they are not determinate at all? I think everyone agrees there is consistency in our reality, otherwise there wouldn't be much technology around (though Tech is our imposition of machine causation).
H:
--- Quote from: sciborg2 on October 31, 2018, 09:27:47 pm ---But to say things are determinate, on average, is to say they are not determinate at all? I think everyone agrees there is consistency in our reality, otherwise there wouldn't be much technology around (though Tech is our imposition of machine causation).
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Well, yeah, but I was refuting the idea that quantum indeterminacy could account for 100% of things that happen. Maybe it's less than that, but I don't think it can plausibly be 100%, if I understand it correctly, because, like you say, machines work. I guess then we can ask to what degree are we machines?
sciborg2:
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 09:36:02 pm ---Well, yeah, but I was refuting the idea that quantum indeterminacy could account for 100% of things that happen. Maybe it's less than that, but I don't think it can plausibly be 100%, if I understand it correctly, because, like you say, machines work. I guess then we can ask to what degree are we machines?
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I guess it depends on what we feel is meant by indeterminancy. Randomness can include stability, just stability that can collapse at any moment. I believe is is what Hyper Chaos is meant to signify, that our observed stability in the Real is something we are, metaphysically, Lucky to have.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: sciborg2 on October 31, 2018, 09:54:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: H on October 31, 2018, 09:36:02 pm ---Well, yeah, but I was refuting the idea that quantum indeterminacy could account for 100% of things that happen. Maybe it's less than that, but I don't think it can plausibly be 100%, if I understand it correctly, because, like you say, machines work. I guess then we can ask to what degree are we machines?
--- End quote ---
I guess it depends on what we feel is meant by indeterminancy. Randomness can include stability, just stability that can collapse at any moment. I believe is is what Hyper Chaos is meant to signify, that our observed stability in the Real is something we are, metaphysically, Lucky to have.
--- End quote ---
Yeah. Like imagine you're sampling from a normal distribution. Most of the values will be reasonable close to the mean (depending on the variance ofc but whatever), but occasionally you'll sample some extreme points.
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