Earwa > Atrocity Tales
The inverse fire.
What Came Before:
--- Quote from: Curethan ---
--- Quote from: Callan S. ---But you think if all sorcerers were exposed to it, they would have this 'revelation'?
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure, but apprently the Ishroi went 'mad' in fashion that Cet'Ingira couldn't count on them to support his new objectives.
It could be that if you're not already a certain distance down the road to damnation it's a personality destroying mindrape rather than revelatory experience.
[size=85](I don't have my AE volumes on hand, but I think I recall Mimara veiwing Akka with the JE and seeing the gold of exaltation amidst his damnation-vibes, can anyone confirm or refute that?)[/size]
Then we have the chain of broken souls dragged into the golden room during Akka's 'Nau-cayuti' dreams. Not being recruited to the consult per se, but...
--- Quote from: Callan S. ---How can you have an ungenuine revelation? :twisted:
--- End quote ---
There are plenty of examples where Kellhus guides people towards 'revelations' that suit his ends. Truth is even better than a lie when used to decieve.
@ Madness.
I had the same spark of interest when I read that part about Titirga's Grace. Another bit that I don't recall from the first couple times I read TFS ;)
Almost certainly relates to this bit, imo.
--- Quote ---He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations. Even his Stain was different, somehow muted, as if he could cut the Inward without scarring it. Even now, simply regarding him, his distinction literally glared from his image, a strange, sideways rinsing of the Stain.
The vital difference. The threat.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Madness ---I honestly should take a reread through the False Sun and give it some philosophic rigour - it has got a bunch of golden nuggets in it.
--- End quote ---
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
But back to the fire ;)
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Shaenorra's transformation is impossible.
I'm saying it is evidence of direct neurological tampering - like getting a limb amputated etc.
The time constraints I'm talking about are what is required for an organic change in belief structures. Something akin to Schopenhauer's epistimelogical model or DABDA.
Consider;
Shae's social personality and memories are intact, however he is suddenly inclined to behaviours that would have unacceptable previous to his exposure.
He experiences levels of terror previously unthinkable, then peace and the resolve to enact some-one else's goals.
If this happened to someone in our mundane world, the conclusion of any psychologist examining the subject would be obvious. Highly effective brainwashing.
And given the time frame and the thouroughness, it would have to be enacted on a neural level.
Technologicaly impossible, but for how long - this is the kind of thing that worries and fascinates Bakker, if I judge him correctly.
The alternate logic of the inverse fire being simply some revelation and the behaviours of Cet'Ingira and Shae being logical extensions from this is where I have an issue.
Assuming the inverse fire only shows damnation is real and worse than anything you can imagine.
A) why did the inchies build it? If it is merely proof then why is it holy to them?
B) the damned (sorcerers and inchies) can look at it and aquire a sense of resolve, but others (the ishroi and the vistims of the golden room) get mind-raped and husked?
C) those exposed become immoral, not simply ammoral. They don't just do anything to avoid damnation. They suddenly exalt in it. What is the reasoning here? Is raping people to death really that rewarding once you take away social programming?
--- Quote ---Shaeönanra had committed unspeakable… nay, unthinkable… acts. They all had. Debaucheries. Desecrations of self and other. Shrieks for cries of passion. Blood for grease. Mere recollection set his skin afire, such was the orgiastic ecstasy. He had exalted in the trackless void, the hole where good and evil had once been.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Madness ---Secondly, after all this time, I think many of us want and need the Consult to be Evil. Its easy for those of us who think so to deny this latest moral revelation and happily await Bakker's next Inversion. However, I think that we might end TUC with the ongoing assumption that the Inverse Fire is Truth.
--- End quote ---
I don't get this. They are violently opposed to everyone - they want to do harm, dominate and/or kill. That puts them on the evil side of any moral spectrum that is not their own.
Even the ammoral dunyain axiomatically oppose them (Kellhus argues Moe will defect only after he comes to believe in the truth of his damnation in TTT).
It doesn't matter if they are right about damnation because only the damned would agree with their actions.
According to Mimara's JE, it's not too late even for Galian to escape damnation (just before he dies) and he has done some pretty bad shit.
It will be interesting if we see what happens to a properly whelmed Dunyain who looks at it.
--- End quote ---
What Came Before:
--- Quote from: The Sharmat ---I think we should also consider the sampling bias in this scenario. It's not like the Maengaecca were a warm and fuzzy school to begin with. And that's saying something by sorcery standards.
--- End quote ---
What Came Before:
--- Quote from: Curethan ---Fair call, but I think Shae's quoted rumination above highlights that there has still been a polar shift in his morality.
--- End quote ---
What Came Before:
--- Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer ---I wonder if the Inverse Fire shows you your ultimate fate and you get to experience some of that, since the Outside seems unbound by time...I guess. I wonder if Seswatha, while prowling through the Ark with Nau-Cayuti stumbled upon the IF and saw Paradise for himself, giving him the resolve he would need live through the 11 years of the No-God. Always seemed odd to me that he was just that strong of a guy.
Wish Bakker would release a new Atrocity Tale.
--- End quote ---
What Came Before:
--- Quote from: sciborg2 ---No Atrocity tales until after TUC according to his Tor interview.
--- End quote ---
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