Bakker said in a Q&A that humans can turn into Ciphrang and those that do can start that transformation during life.  I always go back to how the Hundred used to walk the planet.  Isn't there confirmation that the Tusk was introduced by the Consult as a tool to kill the Nonmen?  From there it's an easy leap to see how 100 humans were Tekne'd with endless hunger, turned into big ass demons and then gods via the Tusk's memorialized history.

Do any of the books give concrete explanation for how a soul avoids damnation?

Not sure how concrete of an answer you're looking for but here's what I recall anyway.  Most Gods protect their followers in the afterlife.  Truly Damned souls are consumed via the endless hunger that rules the Outside.  Zeum trust in their ancestral bonds to protect one other because they find that more reliable than relying on the whims of demons.  Non-Men seem to hide from damnation somehow.  It seems to me that damnation is relative.  Everyone wants to eat everyone else in the afterlife.

Kellhus by the time he prophecies that Akka will kneel the next time they meet, is already having visions that he presumably believes.  By this point, future Kellhus has ample time/opportunity to condition the ground for present Khellus.  Inserting a quick "Akka will kneel" revelation would be a minor thing.  Of course naturally this supposed the Kellhus marches toward godhood theory.

If true, it seemes as if Kelhus is currently or has been able to view time as the gods do; now i wonder if at the end of the TTT that when Kelhus told Achiamian that,  "The next time that you see me you will kneel", like he already knew what would happen.
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Good catch.  I had missed it completely that technically Akka just saw Kellhus and he was kneeling in the dreams over the dying Celmomas.

Ajokli is protecting and guiding Kelmomas.  When the WLW kills the Narindar, the assassin says Ajokli sees things the other Gods do not.  Presumably a trickster of the Gods is able to hide and fool them as well.

There's also clear evidence that Kelmomas has a measure of the White Luck in that moment:

He would help-Yes!  He would distract Father.  Yes!  That was his role.  That was how it had already happened.   He could feel it, somehow like an oracular density in his bones.

Ajokli gets even more props for tricking the guy that wants Kellhus dead the most to serve as his unwitting savior.  The Four Horned Brother is one cool cat.

It's a minor gripe but reading The Great Ordeal really made me dislike the title for "The Whiteluck Warrior" since he died without much impact to the story.  He killed Maithanet, true, but all the other topic titles referred to concepts with much more far reaching impact.  The Warrior Prophet might be an exception but that was the entire focus of the book.  Every other title is about huge game changers in the world and they're all relevant in every book that comes after it.  The Shortest Path would have been a much better title IMO.

That's the best one yet.  Is that some one specifically?  From memory of my read, there are two named characters in that battle, that's Khellus or Saubon?

Its possible that there's enough content to discuss from The Great Ordeal for two podcasts so consider taking the top two most popular days. 

Allow me to quote an earlier post of mine I made after reading TJE and I'll elaborate on it after:

The outside mirrors the mundane world on several levels. Akka observes that the differences between the Outside and the mundane world is a matter of degree and not actual substance. Even Moe and Kellhus, the first after decades of observation and the latter from firsthand study, observe that the outside is a glorified battlefield of warring factions.

Apparently your mundane life merely sets your position for the afterlife. Inithrism gives you a path to cozy up with a god of your choice in the hopes that they can protect you once your soul finds its way in the afterlife. This only applies, of course, to the compensatory gods. Gilgaol, the god of war, who is not a compensatory god would have otherwise taken the Captain under his protection. Zuem bypasses this by setting up ancestors together in similar groups that can watch for one another. Zuemi doesn't deny the existence of the Hundred, they just believe your own kin are more reliable allies in the Outside. This coincides with Kellhus' observation that the Outside is nothing more than innumerable factions warring amongst themselves.

By contrast the few that bruise themselves seem like they just mark themselves for any Ciphrang that is strong enough to claim them for an everlasting snack. This could explain why Cishaurim don't bruise. The Tusk specifically condemns sorcerers as an abomination. Fanism specifically exalts the Pshuke as being closer to the Solitary God.

After some contemplation here's my current theory. At one point one of the characters, I believe it was Kayutas, notes that the Great Ordeal is nothing more than a vehicle to transport the thousands of sorcerers. It's also noted that Topos are, quite literally, gates into Hell. The greater the Topos, the closer you are to the Outside. You're essentially in the Outside at that point on varying degrees. Kellhus' entire plan for the Ordeal is to take the entire expedition to the largest Topos in the world and... just stay there. At that point he'd have an actual army in the Outside backed a core of sorcerers in their thousands. Whatever Zauduyani survive would be able to help as well. We know that the Gods and Demons all value and collect human souls so they must have some purpose in the Outside. From there Kellhus builds strength by dominating the lower Ciphrang, recruiting tormented sorcerers' souls and begins building a mansion strong enough to eventually challenge the Hundred. Since it appears that the Hundred are just more powerful and more legitimate Ciphrang, the Dunyain axiom of dominating circumstance must extend logically to dominating the Hundred. Likely human souls, Nonmen souls, Ciphrang and even the gods are all essentially the same in the Outside.

I believe I'm still generally on the right track.  I always go back to the notion that the outside is fundamentally no different that the normal world.  The two worlds differ in degrees only.  One amendment to the theory is the how eating the Sranc is affecting the thoughts of TGO.  I believe this is intentional.  Kellhus is priming the Ordeal to think a certain way that is conducive to mastering the Gods in the Outside much the same way he was priming Proyas.  I suspect for Proyas this as to force him to accept that he will be literally required to murder or dominate the gods he loves so much.  For everyone else, a frenzied violent mindset seems to be what works in the Outside.  That's certainly how the Ciphrang and Gods seem to handle business.

To put it bluntly, if Souls are ,for lack of a better term, currency in the afterlife, then what's stopping Khellhus from storming in there with his own army of souls?  That's part and parcel of the Dunyain schtick.  All interaction are hammers to temper people into useful tools.  The Thousandfold Thought was described as a pattern repeating itself within a larger pattern and IIRC it was also identified as an Empire made as Kellhus' soul or something like that.  So these crazed Ordealmen are now primed to repeat the pattern that is Kellhus' sould in the outside.  Then the pattern that is the Ordealmen will force the other factions in the Outside to confirm to the same pattern.  In short, TTT is the pattern of Kellhus' soul forcing itself into a larger pattern or the Ordeal forcing itself into the pattern of the outside-- ie the unmoved soul ie The One God, the title for the next trilogy.

Quote from: MisterGuyMan on June 17, 2016, 01:42:16 pm

I wish I had known about this thread earlier.  I WAAAAY overpaid for an ARC paid for expedited shipping.  I got it yesterday, took a half day at work and feel like crap this morning but I cant say it wasn't worth it.  My first reread starts in my lunch break today.

Lol - you finished already?!

Yeah.  Planned my whole day around it.  Picked up food so I wouldn't have to cook or do dishes.  Told my wife I'd disappear until I finished.  I think I slept at 1am.

GREAT novel.  Maybe the best in the series in terms of reread-ability although Darkness that Comes Before has a special place in my heart.