So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.Many people indeed think so.
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First, I'm new here so hello everyone, and I have so many questions about those books! Damn I love that serie! I have something like 20 open pages of this forum and reddit about the Second Apocalypse!
But I wanted to discuss some theory about the last book (I don't think I have read it anywhere yet, but maybe I just didn't looked enough). Oh and I'm French, so maybe something contradict my idea in the book and I missed it (no french translation for the Aspect-Emperor serie, that's why I just finished the last book even if I started it few weeks after the release). I kinda get that some part are hard to read even for native speakers ;D ! Anyway, I'll try to organise my thoughts and write in english as well as I can.
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.I'm not sure there's much of a difference. I think the general idea is that Ajokli can fully posses his victims. Just like how Ajokli overtakes Kellhus in the Golden room, so too does he take control of Cnaiur.
I think I remember both of them being called "prince of hate"."Both of them" referring to Cnaiur and Ajokli?
When Mimara watch him with the JE she say it's weird and he is not just damned but some kind of demon already."Not just damned" - or even the most damned creature she ever saw.
At the end, when Cnaïur speak with his tribe and his son, he tell something like "you know what I am, and if you fuck with my son I'll kick yo ass even if I'm dead" (very bad paraphrasing).I think this was more of an esoteric threat. Something that Cnaiur said to make his followers fear him from beyond the grave. I don't think that Cnaiur, or the Scylvendi, knew that Cnaiur was going to be a Ciphrang (if that is even what happened).
The gods are timeless so him become a god at the end of the book wouldn't contradict kellhus possessed before Cnaïur die.There is a lot of confusion surrounding the timelessness of the gods. I do agree with you: Ajokli is fully capable of possessing both Kellhus and Cnaiur.
Plus I think the glossary tell something about Ajokli not being like the other gods.There are some quotes throughout the books that suggest Ajokli is special in some way. I don't think there's much proof that says exactly how or why.
Many other little things would make sens, like him being a big shard to begin with, and the many swazonds helping his soul grow (all the dead would be souls clamed by his own in the outside).I'm not sure Cnaiur started out big, but he certainly ended up that way.
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?
So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.Many people indeed think so.
Finally, wouldn't be the best vengeance against Kellhus to trick him and control him, and at last seize him when he is in the GR (even if that part didn't work as expect, thanks Kelmomas)?
Oh, I see now what you mean. You're theory is that Ajokli is Cnaiur. Or put another way, that Cnaiur became Ajokli.
That's a pretty interesting idea. I'm going to have to think on it some.So what do you think? I would love him reaching the godhood status by pure hate against Kellhus!
Great thoughts! Thanks for posting.
Whatever you do, don't feel the need to search everywhere before you make a new topic or ask a question. Just start posting :)I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.I'm not so sure that "The Trickster God" is a particularly good description of Ajokli anyway. Cunning, sure, and smart, able to make people do things. A great tactician. All these things, while perhaps could be considered tricky, calling them tricky, or labeling Ajokli as a 'trickster' really misses the mark. In my opinion at least.
Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise
Exactly what I was trying to say.
In in timeless timeline (WTF?), it would be something like that:
- The world exist
- Cnaïur is born
- shit happens
- Cnaïur is so freaking mad and his soul is very big thanks to all the souls he collected with his swazonds
- Cnaïur run into the srank sea and his soul overflow the reality as the place is a topoi
- But his soul is in fact Ajokli
- His body die
- Ajokli (Cnaïur soul) is officially born
- As gods are timeless, Ajokli has always existed in the outside
Cnaiur becoming the Ajokli we see at the end of TUC makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of poetic justice to it, and it fits with the reoccurring theme of people creating their own demise
As others have said, in Earwa what comes after determines what comes before AND the gods exist outside of time. So it's entirely possible that Ajokli was "born" when Cnaiur walked into the whirlwind. Cnaiur certainly had enough hatred to fit the bill as the Prince of Hate, although the trickster aspect seems lacking. Still, I find it quite plausible. Especially when you consider the priesthood of Ajokli deemed murder to be holy. That sounds familiar...
Insofar as Ajokli being "different" from other gods, that's because he has access to a reverse prophet; Kellhus. Kellhus brings him news from the Inward, and that allows him to see what the other gods can't see, know what they can't know.
About that trickster thing, I have an idea. As I understand it, Ajokli fuck up your plans at the last second and that's why he's called trickster. But Cnaiur was manipulated by a dunyain ... And twice! So I would get why Ajokli like to be an ass with people who have "a plan". People with plan can go to hell (literally), you want something? Fine, kill your way to it! Don't mess around with a plan or Ajokli will kick your ass!
In my mind it fit.
That can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that Cnaiür's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.
Thought the exact thing when I read. God Cnaüir is likely to be different then human Cnaüir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.Since this was the initial take, only disputed after (and unrelated) to Bakker's Q&As, I highly doubt that. People thought that Cnaiur actually became Ajokli from the very beginning.
Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelliThat can very well be the case, and I've wondered if it's possible that Cnaiür's personality was somewhat warped after his ascension from human to Ciphrang/god. That could explain it too, perhaps.
Thought the exact thing when I read. God Cnaüir is likely to be different then human Cnaüir. Matter of fact, people have expressed angles were it makes sense already. Its the boat we missed y'all.
@icarium90 (love the handle, btw).
I think youve outlined a lot, as well as others at to why Cnaüir indeed did become Ajokli. In was against it at first, not for personal reasons, just my reading of the story. So many aspects make it very plausible that it is the case. Ajokli was born on the Fields Appalling under the shadow of the Ark. Lines up with myth perfectly. Maybe this is the boat Bakker talked about us missing.
An idea that popped into my head while I was reading this discussion, was the following: Could both Cnaiür and Kellhus have become Ajokli in the end, in a similar way to both Kelmomas and Samarmas became the No-God? Duality and opposition are a recurring theme, and I'm still looking as to why. Any thoughts?
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.
The No-God rewrites the Gods every time it interferes with their plans, right? That is, their agents inhabit a world where they are destined to succeed, and have been so since the dawn of time, a la the WLW. When Kelmomas fouls their plans the world transitions to one where they have ALWAYS been doomed to fail, and the Gods are overwritten in the same manner.
So when Kelmomas destroyed the first WLW's destiny Yatwer had retroactively never chosen him, her choice all along was Sorweel, who was totally destined to succeed. When Sorweel was likewise pushed off the rails she presumably had always been pinning all her hopes on whoever her current guy is.
Ajokli is the same way. He had always been planning to possess Kellhus. When Kelmomas ruined that it retroactively was never his plan at all. He had always been planning on using Cnaiur against Kellhus, which he attempts at the finale.
Hi all, been reading this thread with interest. I've not picked up the books in a while, but this got me thinking. I can't remember if the Hundred (scripturewise) exist before or after Arkfall? If it is after, is it possible that the Inchoroi brough Ajokli with them when they crashed? The damnation they've been trying to escape is Ajokli's Hell, and that his 'agency' in Earwa is thanks to the Inchies, unable to escape him and bringing him with them? It would kind of fit with what the Consult are trying to achieve, and perhaps on a world with meaning, they finally have a chance to outwit him - then along comes Kelhus and buggers it all up. Just a line of thought, but interesting maybe? It would also explain why he is different to the rest of the gods, the connection implied with the Horns of Golgotterath, etc.
Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be. ' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
With the information we have, we know the Nonmen had some kind of god myths, or at least creation stories of some kind. We also know that the men over in Eanna had their own gods tha they worshiped.
Granted I don't know if that really counts as proof that gods actually existed before the Inchoroi came around, but at least men and nonmen both believed in them.
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.
Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell :D
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.
Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell :D
You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..
You both make good points SuJuroit and ThoughtsOfThelli. Damn, Kellhus REALLY should have killed him when he had the chance. Talk about a decision you a live to regret..
Just one of the things that shows us that Kellhus is not infallible. ;)
The game is not up - salted, but not done.[/color]
Think I'll add that to my vocabulary - "honey, can you please pass the Kellhus?"
So, here is my idea. In my reading it make sens that Cnaïur isn't possessed by Ajokli at the end as I can read in many places, but instead become Ajokli.
I have trouble imagining that both of them became Ajokli in any shared way. That particular god doesn't war against itself but with others.
But, all signs in the book point to the Gods existing before Arkfall, why else would it be the promised land??