Nonmen Society

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2014, 07:28:30 pm »
He says cunning ishroi.

Though in ALL CAPS of course.

Triskele

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« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2014, 09:10:49 pm »
He says cunning ishroi.

Though in ALL CAPS of course.

LOL, of course, of course. 

locke

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« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2014, 06:13:05 am »
If we're talking about the non men art we shouldn't neglect the wolf gate.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.


Wic

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« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2014, 04:27:57 pm »
I look forward to what TUC explains in the sense of the Nonman self, which is clearly different from what man experiences.

They don't distinguish between touching themselves and touching others.
Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2014, 05:00:08 pm »
I look forward to what TUC explains in the sense of the Nonman self, which is clearly different from what man experiences.

They don't distinguish between touching themselves and touching others.
They don't?

Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.

And clearly their perceptions are different in some ways...they can't see paintings, evidently, so they have to do friezes and statues.

I just think their alzheimer's like symptoms are going to make judging what is native to their species and what is pathology difficult, if they end up being present in all Nonmen to one degree or another.

And I wonder what it implies of the Quya is Nonman thinking is inherently so alien to Homo sapiens? Is there really all that much overlap between the Quya and the Gnosis? The Nonman mind may be able to make logical leaps in their sorceries that a human would be unable to, and vice versa.

But yeah, if we get characters at Ishterebinth hopefully some of these questions are at least partially answered.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2014, 06:52:43 pm »
How radically different are the physical capabilities of a Cunoroi and a Homo sapiens? Are they much stronger? It seems like I remember getting that impression, but I'm not sure from where.

I ask because I'm trying to come up with a basic hypothesis for Nonman (Let's just call them Homo cunuroi instead of Homo sapiens) evolution. Right now I'm imagining we share a recent common ancestor but that the cunuroi developed a divergent lineage from the sapiens ancestor as a specialized parasite on other hominids (these being the ancestors of the Emwama, the original men of Earwa). But I'm not sure this is strongly supported.

Wic

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« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2014, 06:53:19 pm »
They don't?
No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?"  Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.

Their art depicts a flow or summation of behaviors - they are never tricked into thinking their present self is the self.

These are radically different perspectives, and it makes their thinking genuinely alien to our own.
Quote
Is this radically different experience of reality due to them being (most likely) an entirely different species from Homo sapiens, or is it due to the slow derangement that accumulates as a result of their inability to cope with the sheer volume of their own memories? I find it hard to believe most Nonmen could function if their perspectives are anything approaching as erratic as the one in the first Atrocity Tale. But then he was an Erratic. And yet in a way that kind of art seems to represent a tendency not to see things in discrete events separated in time, which is certainly how that particular Cunuroi perceived the world.

And clearly their perceptions are different in some ways...they can't see paintings, evidently, so they have to do friezes and statues.

I just think their alzheimer's like symptoms are going to make judging what is native to their species and what is pathology difficult, if they end up being present in all Nonmen to one degree or another.

And I wonder what it implies of the Quya is Nonman thinking is inherently so alien to Homo sapiens? Is there really all that much overlap between the Quya and the Gnosis? The Nonman mind may be able to make logical leaps in their sorceries that a human would be unable to, and vice versa.

But yeah, if we get characters at Ishterebinth hopefully some of these questions are at least partially answered.
In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as  a purely present existence.  They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.

Maybe Bakker read up on mirror neurons and integrated those into the Nonman mind.

Also, I believe Madness said that we will explore a great deal of Nonman culture and mindsets when the story reaches Ishterebinth.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2014, 07:04:45 pm »
No, can't find it since it's the one I don't have digitally, but in WLW, Cleric asks Mimara something like "Is it true that man experiences touching themselves and the touch of another differently?"  Whether or not that's the exact wording, the implication was very much from a 'different species' perspective, rather than 'Erratic vs. non-Erratic'.
Ahhh, I didn't remember or understand what you meant. That is interesting. I wonder what that implies from an evolutionary standpoint?

In this universe (that is, from Bakker's view), the 'self', and what it means to be a 'self', takes on a strong significance, so I think there's a deliberate creation in the Nonman self - and I think the ultimate crux of the Nonman self is that they don't view themselves as an instant, as  a purely present existence.  They recognize, perhaps only briefly, that what comes before and after is still integral to what defines their selves, and from there it might easily flow into a lack of distinction between other selves.

Maybe Bakker read up on mirror neurons and integrated those into the Nonman mind.

Also, I believe Madness said that we will explore a great deal of Nonman culture and mindsets when the story reaches Ishterebinth.
So you're implying that Nonmen may experience a far greater degree of empathy than Homo sapiens, at least for each other (human and nonman body language and facial expressions vary significantly from each other which would be a barrier to inter-species empathy)? Hmmm.

Wic

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« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2014, 07:09:10 pm »
Ah, here it is:
Quote
"Is it true," he inexplicably asks, "that being touched by another and touching oneself are quite distinct sensations for Men?"
[some internal monologue from Mimara]
"I think I once knew this," he finally says.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2014, 07:37:24 pm »
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?

mrganondorf

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« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2014, 10:53:12 am »
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?




its what i thought too

Garet Jax

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« Reply #86 on: September 10, 2014, 03:09:27 pm »
I don't just have my mind in the gutter when I assume he's speaking about masturbation vs. sex, do I? I mean it's not just me, that's what he's talking about?

I thought the same thing and also think that is how Mimara understands it.

But with Nonmen being so off the charts and bat shit crazy so far, I wouldn't discount that he means something that "homo sapiens" can't comprehend.  Maybe they experience everything from a 3rd person/ out of body POV and literally couldn't feel a different sensation between the two physical interactions?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:52:43 pm by Garet Jax »

The Sharmat

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« Reply #87 on: September 10, 2014, 04:26:07 pm »
That condition can kinda be artificially induced in humans so I suppose it's possible. I have no idea what kind of implications that would have for their society and evolutionary history.


The Sharmat

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« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2014, 08:55:01 pm »
I don't think "The Stranger" would work for them.